Jump to content


Photo

Class winners in Paris-Amsterdam race


  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

#1 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 28 December 2002 - 12:54

The major race of 1898 was Paris-Amsterdam-Paris, and Gerald Rose gives a wonderful account of it, including full results of the car class. There were, however, also classes for Motor Cycles and "Divers" (usually the Léon Bollée "Voiturettes"), for which I can find no information whatsoever. Additionally, the cars were divided into three sub-categories, and Rose doesn't specify which car was competing in which!

Does someone have a list of at least the winners of each class (eight in all!), and maybe even the results of the Motor Cycles and "Divers" classes?

Thank you!

Advertisement

#2 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,534 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 December 2002 - 13:02

Not quite sure what you're after here Michael, but the light car class (200-400kg) was won by Corbiere's Decauville (Georgano, p127)

#3 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 28 December 2002 - 13:14

:confused:

According to Gerald Rose, the car classes were:

1 - Cars seating 2 or 3 persons
2 - Cars seating 4 or 5 persons
3 - Cars seating 6 and more

No weight divisions!

#4 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,534 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 December 2002 - 13:30

Ah, in that case, you might be looking at what Georgano calls the "tourist" class. They travelled a slightly different, longer route (923 miles against 889 for the racers) and had ten days to complete the course, rather than six, not driving at racing speeds. Essentially a reliability trial run in parallel, I suppose.

#5 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 28 December 2002 - 13:35

Certainly not! :lol:

#6 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,534 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 December 2002 - 13:46

But what if Rose confused the two events, applying the classes from the tourist event to the main race? The Georgano account implies three classes too:

"For the first time there was a class for light cars ... and also one for tourists ...."

#7 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 28 December 2002 - 13:46

Sorry, but to make it more clear: According to Gerald Rose, the vehicles for the RACE (6 stages) were divided up into:

- Cars (as above)
- Motor Cycles
1 weighing less than 100 kg, seating 1 person
2 weighing less than 100 kg, seating more than 1 person
3 weighing between 100 and 200 kg, seating 1 person
4 weighing between 100 and 200 kg, seating more than 1 person
- "Divers"

I really can't see where your 200-400 kg class would fit in here, although it is the typical classification for Voiturettes later on. So maybe that should read "Divers"???

Richard, it would be interesting to see what Georgano says about the race in general. As I don't have the book, could you perhaps post his comment(s) here?

#8 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 28 December 2002 - 13:50

Parallel posting...

Originally posted by Vitesse2
But what if Rose confused the two events, applying the classes from the tourist event to the main race?

Unlikely, there would probably be no Motor Cycles in the Tourist event, and if any, certainly not enough to warrant four seperate classes!

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The Georgano account implies three classes too:

"For the first time there was a class for light cars ... and also one for tourists ...."

So, three including the Tourists???

even more :confused:

#9 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 46,786 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 28 December 2002 - 13:51

Per Karslake, Racing Voiturettes:

-there was a touring class, in which Givet on a Delahaye had the best time;
-he quotes Autocar, which states that there were 30 'tourists' in 5 classes (2-3 people, 4-5 passengers (!), 6+ people, motor cycles <100kgs, and voiturettes - these included 3 Mors, 5 Panhard et Levassor, 4 Amedee Bollee, 6 Delahaye, 1 Peugeot, 1 Hurtu, 1 Baille-Lamaire, 1 Belgian (unspecified), 6 de Dion tricycles, 2 Decauville and 1 Bollee voiturette (sc. as well as the racing classes)
-Corbiere won the racing voiturette class sur Decauville ahead of Leon Bollee on a Leon Bollee and Wilfrid also on a Leon Bollee [but there is a suggestion that Corbiere was a pseudonym for Ravenez]

[please add accents mentally - don't draw them on screen]

#10 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 28 December 2002 - 14:02

Originally posted by ensign14
[please add accents mentally - don't draw them on screen]

:lol:

Originally posted by ensign14
-he quotes Autocar, which states that there were 30 'tourists' in 5 classes (2-3 people, 4-5 passengers (!), 6+ people, motor cycles <100kgs, and voiturettes - these included 3 Mors, 5 Panhard et Levassor, 4 Amedee Bollee, 6 Delahaye, 1 Peugeot, 1 Hurtu, 1 Baille-Lamaire, 1 Belgian (unspecified), 6 de Dion tricycles, 2 Decauville and 1 Bollee voiturette

Well, that makes 31 iicc! Maybe the Baille-Lamaire was the Belgian one, I don't recall that offhand. Anyway, Rose writes about 26 tourists...

Originally posted by ensign14
(sc. as well as the racing classes)

I don't understand this... :confused:

#11 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 46,786 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 28 December 2002 - 16:00

Originally posted by fines
I don't understand this... :confused:

Just trying to clarify that Karslake details the touring car classes alone, there must have been a number of racing car classes (including the voiturette racer class).

Never noticed that about the totals! Perhaps the Bollee voiturette ought to have been included in the racing class rather than the touring class? Karslake notes that it is odd that the Bollee is specifically listed as a voiturette whereas the others are 'cars'.

Georgano in the Beaulieu encyclopaedia lists the Baille-Lemaire as French (from Seine-et-Oise) and that the car entered in Paris-Amsterdam-Paris as being their first. here is no car called the Belgian (I checked just in case!).

Incidentally, the Amedee Bollee is described in Georgano's 1st edtion as being 'streamlined', although the picture there suggests that the streamlining was not much more than a V shaped radiator (the body above the chassis may be boat shaped, it's difficult to tell - sorry, cannot scan it). One of the gentlemen atop the car is wearing a black armband.

#12 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 29 December 2002 - 10:04

From : Pierre Souvestre – Histoire de l’Automobile – Paris/1907 (was the official ACF history) :

Classe A – Voitures à deux places :
1) Charron – Panhard – 32 h 44 min 34 sec
2) Girardot/Clément – Panhard – 33 h 25 min 19 sec
3) Giraud (Gaudry) – A. Bollée – 34 h 8 min 58 sec
4) de Knyff – Panhard – 34 h 58 min 50 sec
5) Loysel – A. Bollée – 35 h 19 min 9 sec
6) Adam – Panhard
7) Doriot – Peugeot
8) Kraeutler – Peugeot
9) Levegh – Mors
10) Antony – Peugeot
11) Chesnay – Mors
12) Hourgières – Panhard
13) Heath – Panhard
14) Dr. Pascal – Mors
15) Védrine – Georges Richard

Classe B – Tricycles :
1) Marcellin – Phébus – 39 h 36 min 37 sec
2) Osmont – De Dion
3) Corre – De Dion
4) Teste – De Dion
5) Gaétan de Méaulne – De Dion

Classe C – Voitures et Voiturettes :
1) Corbière – 50 h 14 min 36 sec
2) Léon

= = = = =

This is a quotation – I did not add any comments or forget any precisions.

#13 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 29 December 2002 - 11:31

Thanks Robert!

So it seems all the cars in the racing car class were two-seaters, at least those that finished. Indeed, I had wondered already how many (or rather, how few) racing cars of that time still had more than two seats. All the pics that I know from 1898 onwards show only two-seaters. So maybe the other classes were obsolescent? Anyone with more info? We're still missing twenty starters in this race... :(

#14 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 29 December 2002 - 11:43

Originally posted by ensign14
Karslake notes that it is odd that the Bollee is specifically listed as a voiturette whereas the others are 'cars'.

Léon Bollée "invented" the name Voiturette for his tricars. It was only about a year later that this name was more or less officially adopted.

Originally posted by ensign14
Incidentally, the Amedee Bollee is described in Georgano's 1st edtion as being 'streamlined', although the picture there suggests that the streamlining was not much more than a V shaped radiator (the body above the chassis may be boat shaped, it's difficult to tell - sorry, cannot scan it). One of the gentlemen atop the car is wearing a black armband.

Amédée Bollée Jr.'s cars created a bit of a sensation in 1898 for their boat-like appearance, and they were called "Torpilleurs" (torpedo boats), iirc. The bodies were pointed front and rear, so yes, an early form of streamlining.

Incidentally, there were three different Bollée car manufacturers which are confused time after time: Amédée Sr. (b. 1844) built the steam-engined cars of the late 19th century, his sons Amédée Jr. (b. 1867) and Léon (b. 1870) the early 20th century cars and voiturettes, respectively.

Sr.'s business went down around 1881/2, his elder son's in 1913, and Léon's was bought by Morris in 1924/5.

#15 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 29 December 2002 - 12:31

“Voiturette” was a name registered in 1896 for the Léon Bollée cars, the 3-wheelers.
That’s the reason why the light racers from Decauville were called “Voiturelles” and the ones from Cottereau “Voiturines”. Later Voiturette became the usual designation for all the light cars. Why the suffix –ette? No idea. In other areas it was mademoiselle and not mademoisette or mademoisine.
On the other hand, when in 1898 the ACF adopted the 400 kg regulation for the light racers, he immediately called them Voiturettes. This is at least a small contradiction, since the name was still registered by Léon Bollée and his 3-wheelers were not accepted in the 400 kg-Voiturette class.

= = = = = =

The winning Panhard :
For the first time – after Levassor’s death - Émile Mayade was officially and alone responsible for the development of the new 1898 Panhard racer. His 4-cylinder (94/132 mm) was not anymore simply composed of two coupled twins: The crank throws of the outer cylinders were offset at 180o to the inner ones and this allowed a speed jump of 25 percent up to 1000/min. 3,6 litres delivered 14 HP, nearly 4 HP per litre. A volant, a steering wheel, replaced the archaic tiller. The wheelbase was increased from the 200 cm of the previous year to 230. Michelin supplied pneumatics, all this in view of a better control of the Panhard which accelerated up to 60 km/h. Not only the Michelin brothers emerged as specialised suppliers. Grouvelle & Arquemboug built a finned tube radiator which promptly migrated to the front, in the airstream.
Conclusion : Mayade is completely underrated, forgotten behind the shadow of Levassor.

#16 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 29 December 2002 - 14:21

Originally posted by robert dick
1) Marcellin – Phébus – 39 h 36 min 37 sec

Interestingly, Gerald Rose mentions "Marcellin, on his little De Dion tricycle, had caught up no less than thirty (competitors over the first forty miles from Villiers to La Ferté Gaucher)".

Now I have Marcellin on a De Dion-Bouton 2nd in Marseille-La Turbie in January 1897, and later on (1900) he made a few appearances on a Buchet. The latter one are quite well known, if only for their fearsome 4245 cc "Bête de Vitesse" (:wave: Richard), but about Phébus I can find next to nothing. There's a 3rd at Bordeaux-Biarritz in August 1898, and then nada. Anyone with more info?

#17 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 29 December 2002 - 14:32

Marcellin's Phébus tricycle had the usual De Dion single as engine, the frame itself resembling the original De Dion.
Osmont protested against Marcellin : The Phébus run on its last legs before the final day, and suddenly Marcellin appeared with an as-new tricycle. Apparently he had simply taken a new one. For the next races the ACF sealed the cars.

#18 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,278 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 29 December 2002 - 14:50

Here's the original in-period entry list with class divisions as published in the periodical 'La France Automobile', which - I am convinced - Gerald Rose used as his major source.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Their published-in-period results follow shortly... Editor Paul Meyan's obituary for poor Mayade appears later that same year.

DCN

#19 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 29 December 2002 - 16:05

:clap: Great! :clap:

Once more, Doug to the rescue! :kiss:

Advertisement

#20 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,278 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 29 December 2002 - 18:55

Here are the 1898 Paris-Amsterdam race results as they would have been read at the time by the proud participants.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Oh - and Michael - where I come from we don't go for quite so much of the old kissy-kissy...at least, not until we've been properly introduced.... :rolleyes:

DCN

#21 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 29 December 2002 - 19:20

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Oh - and Michael - where I come we don't go for quite so much of the old kissy-kissy...at least, not until we've been properly introduced.... :rolleyes:

Well, actually as soon as I had posted it, I was thinking of the homo thread and regretted it... :blush:

#22 Egon Thurner

Egon Thurner
  • Member

  • 305 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 29 December 2002 - 19:32

Thank you also, Doug. This is very interesting stuff.

And one thing is more than interesting, namely the man named 'Ed. Gaudry'. :confused:
Never heard/read that name before. All my sources refer to Giraud.

#23 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 30 December 2002 - 07:38

Gaudry was the pseudonym used by Étienne Giraud.
Other pseudonyms in the tourist class :
Escargot = Étienne de Zuylen
Snail = his wife Hélène de Zuylen (born de Rothschild)
Escargot = Émile Mors

#24 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 30 December 2002 - 07:39

correction :
Walrus = Émile Mors

#25 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 30 December 2002 - 09:43

Photos of the 1898 Panhard racer (Charron at the wheel) at :
http://rbmn02.waika9..._Course_07.html
(continue to photo no. 8 + 9 + 10)
Photo no. 7 was taken in Winter 1897/98, for the first time the Panhard racer had a volant, a steering wheel. Potos 8 + 9 + 10 were taken in February 1898 – exact location is difficult, most probably the Forêt the Champigny in the East of Paris.
The radiator is still at the rear. A few weeks later Charron won the race from Marseille to Nice with this car.
In the 1898 Amsterdam race Charron drove the car for the first time with front radiator.
Étienne Giraud was the man who initiated the contact between Panhard and Grouvelle & Arquembourg, the company who built the “radiateur en serpentin”, the tube coil radiator.

Note that the Panhard engine in the entry list is still named Phénix, consequence of the licence contract with Daimler.

The whole website about Arthur Krebs is interesting :
http://rbmn.waika9.com/index.html

= = = = = =

In the list from the France Automobile “Walrus” is given as L. Mors, meaning Louis Mors. Pierre Souvestre and Paul Meyan (among others) explicitly wrote that Walrus was the pseudonym of Émile Mors so that I think Émile is correct.
Dr. Pascal = Henri de Rothschild, founder of the Parisian Hôpital Mathilde, and of the ... Théâtre Pigalle, famous collector of skulls, nephew of banker Arthur de Rothschild.
Levegh = Alfred Velghe, the uncle of the Talbot/Mercedes driver who died in the 1955 Le Mans accident.

The two De Dietrichs are identical with the Amédée Bollée Fils. De Dietrich later built them in licence, before the 1902 agreement with Turcat-Méry.

De Dion # 40 driver Viet = Paul Viet, the engineer later responsible for the GP Renault.

#26 Hans Etzrodt

Hans Etzrodt
  • Member

  • 3,188 posts
  • Joined: July 00

Posted 30 December 2002 - 10:07

Thank you all, especially Robert and Doug. This is great stuff! I wish I had the time to participate. :love:

#27 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 03 January 2003 - 10:24

Grouvelle & Arquembourg (manufacturer of the radiateur en serpentin) :
Jules Grouvelle and Henri Arquembourg – refroidisseur d’eau (= water cooling unit) – located at number 71, Rue du Moulin-Vert, Paris (= in the South of Paris, a few hundred metres from the Boulevard Brune where Ballot built his 8-cylinders just after WWI).

Léonce Girardot proposed to Émile Mayade to include the tube coil radiator into the cooling circuit of the Panhard racers, to reduce the capacity of the huge water tank down to... 40 litres. Étienne Giraud cared for the first contact to Grouvelle & Arquembourg.

= = = = = =

Tyres of the 1898 Panhard racer : 900x65 front and 1100x90 rear (Michelin).

#28 Yves

Yves
  • Member

  • 183 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 03 January 2003 - 11:46

Originally posted by robert dick
“Voiturette” was a name registered in 1896 for the Léon Bollée cars, the 3-wheelers.
That’s the reason why the light racers from Decauville were called “Voiturelles” and the ones from Cottereau “Voiturines”. Later Voiturette became the usual designation for all the light cars. Why the suffix –ette? No idea. In other areas it was mademoiselle and not mademoisette or mademoisine.


...ette is a usual suffix for small in french : un diner, une dinette, une jupe, une jupette ...

A few years ago, Alain Jupé, minister of I don't remember what decided to pay back 5000 FF to everybody who destroy a more as 10 years old car when buying a new one (really a very stupid law : it makes a lot of interessing old cars to disappear :mad: ). And of course, this law was called "jupette" (small skirt).

Y.

#29 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 06 January 2003 - 13:57

Fernand Charron :
Charron was born in Angers, in 1866. At 15 he won his first bicycle race (on a “grand-bi”), received 2 Francs and 50 Centimes, and a living chicken. In 1888 he went to Paris, managed the Clément bicycle agency. In 1893 he founded with Adolphe Clément and popular racing cyclist de Civry the Vélodrome de la Seine; and took over the French agency of the Humber bicycles. In 1895 he founded CGV, Charron, Girardot & Voigt, an automobile dealership in the Avenue de la Grande Armée, selling Panhard, Peugeot and De Dion.
After his racing career, he married a daughter of Adolphe Clément, and built CGV, Charron and Alda cars.
Charron died in Paris on 13 August 1928.

#30 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 06 January 2003 - 18:33

Originally posted by robert dick
CGV, Charron, Girardot & Voigt

Fernand Charron
Léonce Girardot
E. ? Voigt

#31 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 07 January 2003 - 10:02

Émile Voigt.

#32 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 07 January 2003 - 15:50

Thanks :)

#33 Egon Thurner

Egon Thurner
  • Member

  • 305 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 14 August 2003 - 08:25

Émile Voight, third party of CGV.
Carl (why not 'Charles'?) Voight, driver on Panhards (1899 - 1902) and CGV (1903)

Are there any connections between the two. Or is it just the same person?

#34 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,534 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 14 August 2003 - 08:55

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
Èmile Voight, third party of CGV.
Carl (why not 'Charles'?) Voight, driver on Panhards (1899 - 1902) and CGV (1903)

Are there any connections between the two. Or is it just the same person?


In the directory section of Braunbeck's Sport-Lexikon a Carl Voigt is shown as a motor dealer at 16 Coblenzerstrasse Bonn. His telegraphic address was "Automobil Bonn", indicating he'd probably been the first
motor dealer there - established 1888 it seems.

Might not be the same chap of course ....

:)

#35 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 14 August 2003 - 16:42

I believe that Carl Voight is just a typo/misinformation, it should all be the same person: Émile Voigt!??

#36 Egon Thurner

Egon Thurner
  • Member

  • 305 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 27 December 2003 - 21:19

Originally posted by robert dick
In the 1898 Amsterdam race Charron drove the car for the first time with front radiator.

Are you sure, Richard? Unfortunately I have no clear picture of Charron's Panhard in the Paris-Amsterdam-race, but it seems to have the radiator still in the rear ...

#37 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 29 December 2003 - 09:13

In February 1898, Charron tested the latest Panhard, still with rear mounted radiator
(the comments on the website/and on the photos are not correct) :

http://rbmn02.waika9..._Course_08.html
http://rbmn02.waika9..._Course_09.html
http://rbmn02.waika9..._Course_10.html

A few weeks later, with this car, Charron won the race from Marseille to Nice.

In the race to Amsterdam, his Panhard had a front mounted radiator, according to photos in "L'Histoire de l'Automobile"/Pierre Souvestre/Paris 1906/07 and "La France Automobile"/1898.

#38 gerrit stevens

gerrit stevens
  • Member

  • 248 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 04 January 2004 - 15:31

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Here's the original in-period entry list with class divisions as published in the periodical 'La France Automobile', which - I am convinced - Gerald Rose used as his major source.

Posted Image


DCN


Looking at the entry list I see under #3 Clement Girardot (last column) who would eventually finish second. I always thought it was Léonce Girardot who finished second (Higham). Or do I see something wrong.

Gerrit Stevens

#39 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 05 January 2004 - 13:34

Clément Girardot is certainly a misprint. The car was entered by Adolphe Clément and driven by Léonce Girardot.

Advertisement

#40 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 06 January 2004 - 08:57

Correction/supplement :
Clément Girardot is not necessarily a misprint - possible that Adolphe Clément and Léonce Girardot were both nominated as drivers of the Panhard # 3.

#41 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:44

Since Doug took the period entry lists off-line I was wondering who were driving #2 and #5 in these pictures taken in Holland?

Posted Image

#42 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:07

No. 2 "Panhard-Levassor, 2 places, moteur Phénix 8 CV" was driven by Gilles Hourgières,
no. 5 "Panhard-Levassor, 2 places, moteur Phénix 6 CV" by Georges Leys.

8 CV was a four-cylinder, 6 CV a twin.

#43 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 14 April 2008 - 12:39

Thanks, Robert! :up: