18 replies to this topic

[Lotus72b]

Which driver won the first and last race of the 3.5 Liter era of formula one? Also give me which cars he drove? I give everybody the answer later and you win no prize if you get the answers right.;)

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Lotus72b
Which driver won the first and last race of the 3.5 Liter era of formula one? Also give me which cars he drove? I give everybody the answer later and you win no prize if you get the answers right.;)

Nigel Mansell, Ferrari 640 (First), Williams FW16B (last)

pete

[lustigson]

If I'm not mistaken, the 3.5 litre era started in 1989. At least, that was the year in which turbos were banned. The first race of that era, Brasil '89, was won by Nigel Mansell in Ferrari 640 V12 -- the last race, Australia '94, was again won by Nigel Mansell in a Williams-Renault FW16B V10.

I'm not sure if there was a period when 3.5 litre as well as 1.5 litre turbo charged engines were allowed.

[fines]

Originally posted by lustigson
I'm not sure if there was a period when 3.5 litre as well as 1.5 litre turbo charged engines were allowed.

There was - 1987/8.

And the Ferrari '640' is really the Ferrari F1-87. '640' was the internal designation. Calling that car "Ferrari 640" is akin to calling the 312B3 a "Ferrari 628" or the 'Sharkmouth' "Ferrari 543" - it's wrong!

[Mark A]

Depends what you call the 3.5 litre first winner.

The first outright winner was as has been said above, Nigel Mansell.


However in 1987 the 3.5 litre cars were introduced and the highest placed 3.5 car in the first race that year was Tyrell of Jonathan Palmer, both of whom went on to win the 3.5l world championship that year (Palmer winning the Jim Clark Trophy). The best overall result was 4th, achieved by Palmer and Streiff. In 1988 both Capelli and Mansell (twice) got a 2nd. Boutsen being the highest placed 3.5 litre car in the championship with the Benetton B188 with 5 3rd places.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by fines
There was - 1987/8.

And the Ferrari '640' is really the Ferrari F1-87. '640' was the internal designation. Calling that car "Ferrari 640" is akin to calling the 312B3 a "Ferrari 628" or the 'Sharkmouth' "Ferrari 543" - it's wrong!

F1-89, if anything. The F1-87 would've been 637 or 638, I think. 639 was the unraced prototype 3.5l V12, 640 the 89 race car.

Ferrari themselves used the 640-643 designations for the cars in that era. Only as "wrong" as calling a "John Player Special Mark 1" a "Lotus 76".

pete

[fines]

Originally posted by petefenelon
F1-89, if anything.

Ah yes, of course!

Originally posted by petefenelon
Ferrari themselves used the 640-643 designations for the cars in that era. Only as "wrong" as calling a "John Player Special Mark 1" a "Lotus 76".

... which I don't [e.g see http://grand-prix-ra...974/1974-za.htm;)]

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by fines

Ah yes, of course!
... which I don't [e.g see http://grand-prix-ra...974/1974-za.htm;)]

Grin. There's always one.;)

Purely hypothetically, if any of the 76s ended up in private hands, would you call them Lotus 76s then?;)

pete

[fines]

Originally posted by petefenelon
Purely hypothetically, if any of the 76s ended up in private hands, would you call them Lotus 76s then?;)

Yes, note the Team Gunston entries! They both started out as JPS 72s

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Mark A
However in 1987 the 3.5 litre cars were introduced and the highest placed 3.5 car in the first race that year was Tyrell of Jonathan Palmer, both of whom went on to win the 3.5l world championship that year (Palmer winning the Jim Clark Trophy). The best overall result was 4th, achieved by Palmer and Streiff. In 1988 both Capelli and Mansell (twice) got a 2nd. Boutsen being the highest placed 3.5 litre car in the championship with the Benetton B188 with 5 3rd places.

The closest a driver with a normally-aspitated car came to winning a race was Mansell, who chased Ayrton Senna hard for the lead at the 1988 British Grand Prix. Ivan Capelli closed the gap to four seconds in the closing stages of the race at Estoril to leader Alain Prost, but eventually the Frenchman pulled away and won. Capelli very briefly took the lead in Japan.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Geza Sury

The closest a driver with a normally-aspitated car came to winning a race was Mansell, who chased Ayrton Senna hard for the lead at the 1988 British Grand Prix. Ivan Capelli closed the gap to four seconds in the closing stages of the race at Estoril to leader Alain Prost, but eventually the Frenchman pulled away and won. Capelli very briefly took the lead in Japan.

Possibly Williams' greatest ever achievement as a team - moreso than any of their wins or championships - was the speed with which they managed to turn the FW12 (designed for active, remember, and nothing else) from an uncommunicative lump that preferred sitting by the side of the track in a pool of active-suspension juice into a passively-sprung and moderately competitive F1 car! One allnighter, or at most two, wasn't it?

Pity they didn't stick bigger rads on it to start with, it might've done even better

pete

[roger_valentine]

Fines - the 640 was was refered to as the 640 throughout Autocourse and elsewhere. I've also seen it refered to as F189. (Even F1-89 and F189 in the same book.) But I've never heard of any Ferrari refered to as a sharkmouth!


So what is the answer to the question?
Surely Alain Prost (McLaren MP4/3) won the first F1 race of the 3.5 litre era, regardless of the fact that he wasn't driving a 3.5 litre car.
Johnathan Palmer was first of the Chapman Cup competitors, but there wasn't a 3.5 litre category as such in the race, so he he couldn't have 'won' it.


But, given the symetry, and the fact that Lotus72b uses 'driver' in the singular, I suspect that Nigel Mansell is the answer he wants.

[Lotus72b]

I mean from 1989 to 1994 soory for the confusion.

[Lotus72b]

It was sorry not soory. Now back to the answer. The answers are Nigel Mansell,Ferrari and Williams.

[DOHC]

Originally posted by petefenelon


F1-89, if anything. The F1-87 would've been 637 or 638, I think. 639 was the unraced prototype 3.5l V12, 640 the 89 race car.

Ferrari themselves used the 640-643 designations for the cars in that era. Only as "wrong" as calling a "John Player Special Mark 1" a "Lotus 76".

pete

Why is there this dual designation at all for the Ferraris? What is a good source for the complete designations?

[lustigson]

Originally posted by DOHC
Why is there this dual designation at all for the Ferraris? What is a good source for the complete designations?

It's not a designation. The 640 example -- it's an internal project number. Most, if not all, car manufacturers use internal project numbers. The type designation (name or number) is usually made up later.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by lustigson
It's not a designation. The 640 example -- it's an internal project number. Most, if not all, car manufacturers use internal project numbers. The type designation (name or number) is usually made up later.

Well, a project number is a designation. At Ferrari the "internal project number" and what could be called the "type" have a certain mythology that have risen up about them over the years. In many cases the "Tipo" has been recycled or given by an outside source. The best analogy I can come up with is the NATO system for codenaming Warsaw Pact aircraft -- the Tu-95 being called the BEAR. The Soviet AF crews even called it the BEAR after awhile even though it was always the Tu-95 to the AF.

Actually, BOTH Ferrari designations should be used, especially in regards to the engines which are otherwise lost in a flurry of generic labels. A bit more of a challenge for the most part, but more accurate.

[VAR1016]

And of course the "P" in all the BRM numbers stood for "project"

Only the V-16 (P15) was known as the V-16 and the H-16 generally as the H-16; all the rest were P25, P48 etc. or certainly are now, although I note that Tony Rudd refers in his book to Type 25 and Type 48.

PdeRL

[Tim Murray]

As Doug has pointed out on this forum and elsewhere, the first BRMs were designated the Type 15 (ie 1.5 litres) and the Type 25 (2.5 litres). Subsequent models were known by their Project numbers (P48, P83 etc).