62 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

With the F1 news somewhat slow before the teams begin to launch their cars, I would like to know what you think of the new Grand Am Daytona Prototypes. If anyone isn't sure what Grand Am is, they are a sister company to NASCAR and are the rival to ALMS for Sports Car supremecy in the United States.

http://www.fastdetai...03jantestt1.htm

For the last several years, they and their predacessors have used the SRP formula from the FIA, but now have tube framed, heavily regluated coupes they call Daytona Prototypes. They have also restriced or better yet, effectively killed their SRP IIs with added weight and reduced fuel tanks and have made a half hearted attempt to make SRPs like Dallara or R&S MKIIIs legal for an extra year if they comply with the DP engine package. No one as of yet has taken them up on this offer.

These cars don't allow side radiators, carbon construction, side air vents, stressed engines, turbo charging, or even self designed rear wings. The spec rear wing comes from Crawford. GTS has effectively banned cars like the Corvette C5R (though "AGT" style Corvettes are still legal) or the GTS Viper with a limit of six liters of displacement. Even still, the AGT/GTS Corvette ran times that were competitive with the DPs.

Do you think the cars look nice? The Picchio looks ok with Red Bull sponsorship, but I don't like the Fabcar (and it is a Fabcar, NOT a Porsche, but thats another story), and the Focus looks...odd. There is also a badged Toyota built by R&S and more cars set to debut from Crawford, Funtech, and a handful of others.

They will lower the costs, but many long time sports car fans feel this is an attempt by NASCAR to control the entire US scene. And by the car counts at the test, it has not worked as of it. Only around 35 cars took part in the test, down by about half from last year. Longtime SRP teams such as Dyson and Intersport have decided to go full time ALMS racing with an MG, and others such as Robinson with their R&S MKIIIC much modified, have apparently (and sadly) given up all together.

Opinions?

[ehagar]

I don't understand why France even bothers. Is it because he wants it as another event at his tracks? Who the hell goes to rovals to watch Sports Car racing? Affordable sports car racing? My reaction: Since when has racing been affordable? I don't see the idea working in the long run.

The other failure of the concept is that in Sports car racing it is the cars that are the stars, not the drivers (at least these days). It is the one appeal of the ALMS. These are the cars from Le Mans.

I think any sportscar series has merit. It is always nice to have another series for drivers to compete in. But I'd rather see France and Panoz have a little get together show a little vision as to what Sportscars should be. Get the ACO and European series involved to. A global formula!

I find it unfortunate that the Daytona 24 hours is a complete nothing event. America could have three marque endurance events if there wasn't a split. Daytona, Sebring, and Petit Le Mans. Chuck in Watkins Glen and do some work at some other places and you would have a prestigious series.

I guess sportscar racing is doomed to obscurity.

[Colin]

The greenhouses on those cars are obscenely large! (and mandated by the rules to be so) That just ruins the lines of them and makes it hard for me to like them. The Multimatic one I think has done the best job of integrating the greenhouse smoothly (well maybe I'm biased; I know someone that works on that car in the Composites shop at Multimatic).

They allow carbon in the construction, just not as load carrying structure. The body panels can be carbon, but the structure is steel tube frame/aluminum panel hybrid.

The stupid (and funny) thing is they made these things so slow that the SRPII open-top cars had to be severly restricted so they wouldn't be faster than the new "top" class. Smaller restrictors, more ballast, a smaller fuel tank, and a huge roll cage have been forced on the SRPII cars this year to slow them. I do think that forcing stock engines and allowing limited mods was the right way to go though. That will get the manufacturers interest back as it can sponsor a car with and market it as winning with a production engine.

[Viss1]

I'm not sure what the point is. The last thing we need is another niche sports car series to dilute fan bases.

[lustigson]

I agree with ehagar. I don't know too much of Sportscar racing, but I do know that thirty-four different series is not the way to go.

[Placebo]

What a sad, sad end to what once was a great race. I stopped going to Daytona a few years back (breaking my attendence streak that reached back to 1977!), because with the rapidly shrinking track access and greater number of very old security guards. First they cut off grid access, then you couldn't even hang out behind the pits without getting the bum's rush from some grumpy octogenarian (despite credentials). Never mind that the quality of the racing has declined tremendously. I've met and seen some great racing legends at Daytona (Foyt, Wollek, Bell and yes Paul Newman ), worked on some crews and generally had a great time in weather ranging from hot and dusty to freezing and swimming in rain and mud. Now I'll probably try to catch some of the coverage on TV, but won't stay up for it...


Of course the Sebring attendence streak will continue (since '84). I'll never miss another if I have any say in it! Sportscar racing done well is a great balance of fast cars and strategy, access to technicially significant cars and interesting drivers (that you can actually talk to!) and a carnival atmosphere. Beats attending F1 in my book...though I've only been to Montreal and Indy. Love to do Montreal again soon if you know what I mean.


Placebo

[marion5drsn]

Two quotes below:

I'm not sure what the point is. The last thing we need is another niche sports car series to dilute fan bases.

I agree with ehagar. I don't know too much of Sportscar racing, but I do know that thirty-four different series is not the way to go.

I have never counted the number of Sanctioning bodies in the U.S.A. but I'll accept
the 34. This is the thing that too many people can't see about automobile racing of any type there are just too many groups trying to get the small amount of race fans to come to their show. And I.R.L. and C.A.R.T. aren't any different too few people to go around and too much infighting. Just look how many different sanctioning groups just for midget racing. Four would be plenty two would be even better, one would be just right. It seems to be the curse of auto racing.

M.L. Anderson

[JacnGille]

What is the old joke? If my dog looked like that I'd shave his a$$ and teach him how to walk backwards.

[maxpapis]

Originally posted by Placebo
because with the rapidly shrinking track access and greater number of very old security guards. First they cut off grid access, then you couldn't even hang out behind the pits without getting the bum's rush from some grumpy octogenarian (despite credentials).

I know exactly what you mean.
I had pit access a couple of times and the old fart wouldn't let me in. I guess the pass around my neck and the butt ugly Marcos Racing shirt I had wasn't enough.
In the years I didn't have pit access I generally had to wait till about 1am when they started to nod off and then sneak in.

It's a shame... gotta agree with Ehagar. I don't understand what the France family bothers with it. I for one have had enough. I live 12 miles from the track and I don't even plan on going. I'd much rather go to Sebring or Petit LeMans.

[Locai]

Hmmm,

Tubular frames, non-stressed drivetrains, along with big greenhouses, fuel injection, spec wings, and carbon fiber panels...

Sounds like maybe the Frances are using this new class as a test bed for future Winston cup car regs.

Grand Am is a total joke. I put it in a class with the IRL.

[ffiloseta]

A Grand Am is also a shitty looking Pontiac...

[dynamite7]

On http://www.fastdetai...03jantestt1.htm it said the Red Bull car was only 1 sec a lap faster than the 360? Is that 360 a prototype or just a actual F360GT (I think that's what they're called).

Geeze if so then they're REALLY slow then are they?

[Megatron]

There was an interesting thread on the IMSA board where it figured that the Fabcar Porsche had done around 500 laps in its endurance test in 24 hours. Compare that with over 600 from the Racers Group Porsche last year, and we could very well see a GT car win overall.

The days of factory 962s, Toyota, Nissans, and Jaguars seem like so long ago now...

[Lateralus42]

Are there any more America races those NASCAR/IRL dumbasses want to ruin??

Indy 500, Daytona 500, 24 hours of Daytona...all mediocre crap.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by Lateralus42
Are there any more America races those NASCAR/IRL dumbasses want to ruin??

Indy 500, Daytona 500, 24 hours of Daytona...all mediocre crap.

Brilliant question. First off, anyone that knows me knows I am incredibly patrioic. I love the United States, and would not live anywhere else. Even if they are not "American" by blood, I root for stars that have raced in America in F1. Montoya lives in the US during the winter and considers this his home GP, therefore it is not any suprise that he is my favorite F1 driver. I could go on and on, but for the space of the board, I will stop there.

Having said that, we once had a collection of, with the exception of the F1 races and Le Mans 24 hour, the greatest races in the world. Virtually all have been ruined or altered beyond reconigntion. As you say, Indy 500, Daytona 500, Daytona 24, Indy Car racing, etc. The Daytona 500 is now confined to restricted packs of cars with spec bodies that run hopelessly locked together until the "big one", the Indy 500 now contends with the average NASCAR race in terms of ratings and uses cars that, are shall we say, questionable regarding exploting the talents of the drivers, and now the Daytona 24 hour is delutted to watching NASCAR wannabes racing with heavily restricted (though not quit restricted enough!) Trans Am/AGT/GTS cars, GT Porsches and Ferraris, and SRPII cars that weigh a ton, litterally a ton, with other hp and aero penalities. One SRPII crew member stated last year that after all the modifactions Grand Am required of the car, they didn't even know if it could be runable. Well it is, sorta.

And the Grand Am folks said this was a class last year that they were "fully committed to for at least another three years". Then in an interview one of the heads of the series stated late in the year that they only wanted "DSP and GT". Thats gotta make you feel good for stable rules!

[jdanton]

Originally posted by Megatron

And the Grand Am folks said this was a class last year that they were "fully committed to for at least another three years". Then in an interview one of the heads of the series stated late in the year that they only wanted "DSP and GT". Thats gotta make you feel good for stable rules!

It's kind of the Winston Cup rules, they're on a dry erase board in the NASCAR trailer. I miss the IMSA races of the late 80s/early 90's. Remember the Nissan GTP, the Jaguar, and of course the 962s?

[paulb]

I do like the variety of cars they're running, though.

Mini Cooper S

[Todd]

Originally posted by paulb
I do like the variety of cars they're running, though.

Mini Cooper S

I didn't see it on the entry list for Daytona. Where is the Mini running?

[paulb]

Originally posted by Todd


I didn't see it on the entry list for Daytona. Where is the Mini running?

Nuzzo Motorsports www.nuzzomotorsports.com is entering 2 MCS in the Sport Touring 1 Class.

They ran during the test days, best time 02:15.279 with a speed of 94.73 MPH.

[Todd]

Thanks. I wish them luck. Hopefully, Speedvision will provide some coverage of their races. The Mini has a brilliant chassis, but I wonder how much potential any SOHC 4-valve engine has.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Ohhhhh

That car is racing in he Motorola Cup. I was trying to figure out how a Mini was going to do the 24

[Megatron]

Just in case anyone is wondering, two GTS cars, a Corvette pilioted by the Bells and a Mustang, were the quickest, nearly a second ahead of the new "class" of cars. However, by rules, the DPs will automatically get the top starting stops 1-6, even though the Pichio and the Doran didn't even post a time. The Corvette, the real pole winner, will start seventh.

Sebring, by the way, has a whopping 65 entries.

[Psychoman]

Sebring, by the way, has a whopping 65 entries.

Hehe... the real racers are running the best race

[Ross Stonefeld]

Daytona 24 has 6 DSPs, Sebring will have 4 Audi R8s and 2 Bentleys in their premier class, plus some other cars that won really factor.

[JacnGille]

Welcome to the exciting new world of NASCAR road racing.

[Psychoman]

Welcome to the exciting new world of NASCAR road racing.

Pretty much. If this were run by anyone else, I'd say it was folding after this season, if not in the middle of it; however, the Frances are probably making enough money off NASCAR to keep it afloat. Given the current economic state, however, they may decide to kill it just for the sake of their overall profit margin. This could be a good thing--someone mentioned that 2004 will see the FIA using rules similar to ALMS for the FIA GT championship. If things were to be patched up between France and Panoz, perhaps we could see a REAL international sports car championship (gasp!)...

[Lateralus42]

You guys have got it all wrong! I am going to tune in to see the GTS cars go past the DSP's, its all part of NASCAR's 'MASTER PLAN' to get people to watch.

[Ross Stonefeld]

this is just.......

[diego]

Two words: Porsche 911

[Tec Freak]

Originally posted by Megatron



Having said that, we once had a collection of, with the exception of the F1 races and Le Mans 24 hour, the greatest races in the world. Virtually all have been ruined or altered beyond reconigntion.

Here! Here!

But with one correction: you said "ruined OR altered," it should have been "ruined AND altered"

[Megatron]

Udate nearing 7:00 AM.

The Racers Group 66 car is leading overall with a DP Ford Focus having just been put a second lap down in second overall. Brumos 59 has numerous glitches, Haywood looks like he is not impressed with battling for the lead with a GT Porsche. Ferrari GT is somewhat disapointing but still in the top five overall.

Announcers continue to make excuses for the GT leading. Boris "I hate the ALMS" Said stands beside a BMW "who needs radiators" Pichio and continues to say DP is the future of sports car racing.

[JacnGille]

Can't you just imagine the reaction to the headline "Ford Focus Wins Rolex Daytona 24 Hours!".

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by JacnGille
Can't you just imagine the reaction to the headline "Ford Focus Wins Rolex Daytona 24 Hours!".

How about a Porsche 911 winning
I love Porsche's, but a fricking 911. Only 40 some cars in the race? WTF has happened to the Daytona 24 hours, oh yea, nascrap is in charge. Way to ruin a great race nascrap.

[Ross Stonefeld]

An Audi R8 in the wet would have gone faster than the dry pole. What a disgrace.

[Lateralus42]

What are the chances for the trailer park cartel finally giving up on GA and letting the ALMS take over at the Daytona 24? From the looks of it, there was no one in the stands and most sports car fans think it is a joke.

[random]

Originally posted by Lateralus42
What are the chances for the trailer park cartel finally giving up on GA and letting the ALMS take over at the Daytona 24? From the looks of it, there was no one in the stands and most sports car fans think it is a joke.

I've been to the 24 at Daytona, when they still had real prototypes running there. And from looking at the crowd on TV, this year's attendance looked little different from previous years.

Even though the stands look empty, there "is" a big crowd there, it's just that they're all in the infield. Probably 40-60k people hanging out in the infield, but I suspect a lot of them are there more for the party than the race.

[Psychoman]

Certainly not a good sign when the podium is swept by the "slowest" class on the grid...

[Slyder]

Yeah, it's odd, but seriously looking at it, a win is a win. Congrats to TRG, for their Daytona 24h win.



http://www.grand-am....03Rvl500-16.JPG

http://www.grand-am....03Rvl500-10.JPG

[jonpollak]

What the hay is this thing called?

sorry if already covered.


Jp

[Psychoman]

THAT is the Ford Multimatic. Apparently they've stopped referring to it as a Focus.

[MattPete]

Ugh! I just saw the highlights of Daytona on SpeedTV. Those Daytona Prototypes look aweful! They remind me of something that someone might have put together in "Junkyard Wars" ("Scrapheap Challenge" on the other side of the pond) given a few extra days. They make a Ford GT40 look positively cutting edge!

I'm not a big fan of tech for the sake of tech -- I want a race car to be fast and sexy. The Daytona Prototypes are neither! If they are going to go to low-tech, I'd rather see them adopt rules that produces cars similar to the old Lola T-70s.

The Daytona mafia are clueless.

[JacnGille]

Originally posted by Psychoman
THAT is the Ford Multimatic. Apparently they've stopped referring to it as a Focus.

I believe Multimatic is the team running it. This is from the grandamericanracing.com site:

...The Racer's Group Porsche held the lead for the remainder of the race, despite a serious threat from the gMultimatic #88 Ford Focus Daytona Prototype in the early morning hours. The polesitting Ford Daytona Prototype, which led only the first lap of the race, was able to battle back from several small gremlins to move within seven seconds of the #66 Porsche when a caution bunched up the leaders...

[JohnE]

I just watched some of this on Speed TV and was pretty disapointed. The fact that a GT class 911 won outright was pretty sad, not to take away from the 911 or anything.
So what exactly is the deal with this whole catagory change thing, they were saying that future races would be just two classes one GT and those dumb new cars with no more open cockpit cars.

So is this related at all to the ALMS at all or is it just for this Grand Am Touring Class, or whatever they call it. Does Audi know anything about all this.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Just Grand-Am. Though Audi arent too plesaed with Grand-Am management after the stunt they pulled in their 24hours of Daytona advertising campaign

[RiverRunner]

Originally posted by MattPete
The Daytona mafia are clueless.

Congrats, you are the only poster whose qoute I've ever been severely tempted to use as a sig.

That is soooo true.
Once again the suckers that run US racing have made a totally dumb move.
It's getting chronic over here.
France has to do nothing but open the gates and the LeMans/ALMS crowd would be there, just count the money.
Tony George only had to open the gates and the crowds were there and just count the money
Both of them have now dicked up any semplance of internationally respected races that we had in the US.

[Slyder]

I have to agree. God damn. France should give up the entire damn idea and let the ALMS take over for god's sake.

Geez. ehagar, you're sooooooo freaking right!!!!

AAACK!!!!

[Slyder]

this is how it would look look if it weren't for the damn split:

1. Daytona 24h – Feb. 1-2
2. Homestead – Mar. 1
3. Sebring 12h – Mar. 15
4. Mexico – Apr. 5
5. Phoenix – May 1
6. Birmingham – May 18
7. California – Jun. 8
8. Le Mans 24h – Jun. 14-15
9. Watkins Glen 6h – Jun. 22
10. Washington – Jun.29
11. Mid-Ohio – Jul. 13
12. Sears Point – Jul. 27
13. Trois-Rivieres – Aug. 3
14. Mosport – Aug. 17
15. Road America – Aug. 24
16. Laguna Seca – Sep. 7
17. Mont-Tremblant 6h – Sep. 21
18. Miami – Sep. 27
19. Virginia – Oct. 5
20. Road Atlanta 1000km – Oct. 18


Great series, man, such shame.

[Megatron]

Robert Yates, the man who builds the engine for the Ford Focus, has stated that the DP is basically a "sporty" NASCAR machine.

If you visit a lot of the sports car boards, the few Grand Am fans out there are not exactly sure of the concept. The piece they did on Speed kept reinforcing "low cost" and "ease of build". I am not sure anyone is buying it, litterally.

There is a lot of backlash after the 24, and for good reason.

[Locai]

Originally posted by Megatron

Announcers continue to make excuses for the GT leading. Boris "I hate the ALMS" Said stands beside a BMW "who needs radiators" Pichio and continues to say DP is the future of sports car racing.

I'm a little surprised that Boris Said would have anything bad to say about ALMS. He's driving a Panoz in Trans-Am. Not that it wouldn't be the first time that somebody bad-mouthed the boss.

[random]

If the Frances wanted to lock-out the ALMS crowd, why didn't they just mandate that only production cars could compete?

These new cars are an insult to the word prototype. They use ugly old technology that I hardly see being taken up in any numbers.

But if they had simply said "if it's not a street car, it can't race" at least it would have been a respectable decision. And you'd have fields full of 911's, Ferrari's, BMW's and supercars. Bring back a Le Mans start (with some safety provisions to insure drivers fastened their belts) and it would be a grand show.