34 replies to this topic

[F1 Rox]

With the new engine rule coming in 2004, is it safe to say this year will the last chance to see how high the V10s are capable of revving? Especially with qualifying, I hope to see them approaching 20,000 RPM. After 2004, how long do we have to wait to hear these fantastic engine sounds again? To me, the biggest attraction to F1 is the engine sound.

[A3]

It's only a shame that many TV stations have their volume too low when they are airing F1 races.

I'll never forget the sound of the '96 F1 grid charging through the ardennes; you could hear them all the way from the start while I was at Bruxelles. My first real life F1 experience.

[BRG]

V10s? Pah, bring back the V12s if you want REAL music!! The sound of a Matra V12 around Monaco was unbelievable

[vapaokie]

The current F1 sound is no doubt awesome, but it's more of a primal scream than a sweet note. I'll take the engine notes I hear during the classic F1 parade at the USGP- I watch it from the turn 4-5 straight, and just love the deep note as they blast down the back straight between 7-8.

[Elspeth]

Ah! The V-12s, expeciially the Ferrari.

[MarkWRX]

BRG hit it on the head! Never heard them in Monaco, but the Matra 12 cyl. engine screaming between two rows of 4 story buildings on a side street in Long Beach was almost painful. Listening to them out on the track was almost spooky.

Mark

[Scoots]

The one engine rule is not, repeat, NOT a fact yet. There has been talk, nothing more. No vote, no rule.

[dick]

I have to agree that the sound of an F1 car is what appeals to me most. When I went to my first race with the modern cars,(went to F1 races in the 70's), people recommended ear-plugs. I thought they were nuts. I went to see the Who, Hendrix, Cream, Led Zeppelin, etc. live and figured nothing could be that loud. I was wrong.

[mcerqueira]

...talking about V10 music check out this:

Ferrari's V10 driving out of the garage for test


Oh boy!

Does anyone know any more sites where one can find such gems? Please share!

[jonpollak]

Ya know...
This one change could ruin the chance of snareing new fans....
One of the most appealing and addictive things about being at a race is the sound of V-10/12 screams....

V-8's don't scream

Non va bene

Jp

[Megatron]

I'm not trying to be optismitic here but with Max going out way ahead of time, I get the feeling that some didn't like his "genius" ideas being questioned or turned down.

Maybe the V10s will stay afterall.

[howardt]

Oh, I thought this thread was heralding the break-up of Eddie Jordan's band . . . .

[ViMaMo]

nice collection

F1 engines

[Jordan191]

97 Ligier Mugen ... that was one sweet sound , when Panis or Nakano would step into it out of the Senna hairpin at Montreal

o/~ memories o/~

I need a tissue

[tony]

somewhat offtopic...but the sound (and feel) of a top fuel dragster is also quite amazing...although for completely different reasons..

[Hoax]

A Cart engine can be quite impressive also... Kenny Bräcks Rahal-Ford

/Hoax

[Gemini]

Originally posted by mcerqueira
...talking about V10 music check out this:

Ferrari's V10 driving out of the garage for test


Oh boy!

Does anyone know any more sites where one can find such gems? Please share!

http://www.f1sounds.com/home1.htm


Trackside sound of F1 cars is the thing the keeps me going on GPs these days. Unbelievable multimedia experience. When they rev on starting grid, you not only hear, but feel the wave of sound on your chest. I got goose bumps even when I am writing this...

[Nathan]

Originally posted by tony
somewhat offtopic...but the sound (and feel) of a top fuel dragster is also quite amazing...although for completely different reasons..

Oh my I'll agree. You FEEL those engiens just idle.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by BRG
V10s? Pah, bring back the V12s if you want REAL music!! The sound of a Matra V12 around Monaco was unbelievable

Quite so.

Mind you better still a V-16 BRM!

PdeRL

[Rene]

Originally posted by jonpollak
V-8's don't scream

Non va bene

Jp

I suspect that when we go to a V-8 Formula, given the more natural configuration, where the engineers don't need to overcome as many problems, that we will see V-8 revving very high extremely quickly...

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Rene


I suspect that when we go to a V-8 Formula, given the more natural configuration, where the engineers don't need to overcome as many problems, that we will see V-8 revving very high extremely quickly...

Please explain why a V-8 is a more "natural" configuration.

What is "unnatural" about a V-10? In many way it is superior both to the V-12 and to the V-8 - especially the V-8

PdeRL

[Rene]

Originally posted by VAR1016


Please explain why a V-8 is a more "natural" configuration.

What is "unnatural" about a V-10? In many way it is superior both to the V-12 and to the V-8 - especially the V-8

PdeRL

A V-10 configuration inherently leads to problems with resonant tuning and torsional harmonics that can only really be overcome with sophisticated computer control systems....

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Rene


A V-10 configuration inherently leads to problems with resonant tuning and torsional harmonics that can only really be overcome with sophisticated computer control systems....

Well Marion Anderson (ar you reading this Marion?) would probably disagree.
The V-8 is stuck: either you have a 90-degree crankshaft for correct mechanical balance but (virtually - or indeed practically) impossible exhaust arrangements or you opt for the 180 degree crankshaft and put up with secondary shake. Admittedly the V-8 crankshaft being short will suffer less from torionals but then the V-12 is likely to suffer more from being longer - a fact of life I am afraid. A V-12 could perhaps be better arranged as two (120-degree) V-6s with central power take-off) - vide 1930s straight eight Alfa-Romeo. But then you have to fit it to a car...++

A V-10 can be arranged (72 degrees) for correct balance, and the firing order can be arranged simultaneously for correct synchronisation.

As Marion wrote in a thread on the Technical Forum, the absence of straight-fives or V-10s historically speaking was more than anything else a matter of convention.

What perturbs me is your choice of the adjective "natural" in respect of V-8s.

A V-8 is no more "natural" than a V-6, V-10, V-16 or even V-18. In fact a petrol engine of any configuration is not "natural"!!

PdeRL

[jonpollak]

Originally posted by Rene


I suspect that when we go to a V-8 Formula, given the more natural configuration, where the engineers don't need to overcome as many problems, that we will see V-8 revving very high extremely quickly...

Well Rene...
THEY BLOODY BETTER HAD.

I dont care if they have to artificially inseminate the sound into the car....via a full spectrum speaker or whatever

Half of the fun IS the sound

Jp

[Rene]

Originally posted by VAR1016
A V-8 is no more "natural" than a V-6, V-10, V-16 or even V-18. In fact a petrol engine of any configuration is not "natural"!!

PdeRL

You are being unnecessarily pedantic

Look at the history of race engines since the 1930's there is a reason why we see so few examples of a V-10....

To loosely quote Peter Wright, the V-10 engine has 405 possible firing orders, each of which produces a differerent combination of primary and secondary out of balance forces and couples, with their associated bearing, crankshaft excitation and engine mount loads. Only 3 or 4 are even remotely practical for race engines.

Do a search on the internet for a paper produced by Honda (can't remember the exact name but it has been widely distrubuted), on what they needed to do to get their first and second generation V-10's up and running without tearing apart the chassis....then come back here and compare it to the minimal packaging issues a V-8 race engine has...

[Jack Rabbit]

Originally posted by jonpollak




I dont care if they have to artificially inseminate the sound into the car....

Jp

What kind of training do you need for the job of car insemination?

[NeilB]

Max has said that V10's can stop for the smaller teams, but they have to be rev limited below the V8's.

[CampioneFerrari]

Typical fia logic, ban v10's which everyone has so all the teams can spend millions developing new v8's. F1 is becoming too much of a spec series v8's, v10's, and v12's should all be allowed. Also a v8 engine will have more stress to deal with than a v10, which is a big thing especially considering the one engine rule and the other rule's in the works to make engine's last even longer.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Rene


You are being unnecessarily pedantic

Look at the history of race engines since the 1930's there is a reason why we see so few examples of a V-10....

To loosely quote Peter Wright, the V-10 engine has 405 possible firing orders, each of which produces a differerent combination of primary and secondary out of balance forces and couples, with their associated bearing, crankshaft excitation and engine mount loads. Only 3 or 4 are even remotely practical for race engines.

Do a search on the internet for a paper produced by Honda (can't remember the exact name but it has been widely distrubuted), on what they needed to do to get their first and second generation V-10's up and running without tearing apart the chassis....then come back here and compare it to the minimal packaging issues a V-8 race engine has...

Pedantic? Why? Since when is a V-8 natural? I have still not had that answer...

All this stuff has been covered at great length in the Technical Forum by persons far better qualified than I. I have already mentioned the V-8's problems.

On the subject of 8-cylinder engines I would add that the Tipo B straight-eight Alfa is one of the best-sounding engines to my ears. Also the flat-8 Porsche is interesting; the original firing-order caused the thing to shake itself apart. Porsche changed the firing order which cured the shake, but the drivers asked: "Where's the torque gone?" I presume that the firing order had been chosen originally to favour a particular exhaust configuration this of course occurs with V-8s.

I eagerly await the first flat-10!

Lancia produced a 5-cylinder engine in the 1930s and Dr Porsche designed a roller-bearing and presumably high-revving, 1.5 litre V-10 in 1939 -again, the drawings may be found in a thread on the Technical Forum so I presume that these great companies had solved the problems

Finally, one could have argued along your lines in the 1930s concerning V-6s; again Lancia solved this one.

PdeRL

[Megatron]

Originally posted by NeilB
Max has said that V10's can stop for the smaller teams, but they have to be rev limited below the V8's.

And that will really add more fuel to the fire as the lower teams, the teams Max is so desperate to help, have outdated engines.

Goodbye Max, leave as soon as you can...

[Megatron]

Originally posted by CampioneFerrari
Typical fia logic, ban v10's which everyone has so all the teams can spend millions developing new v8's. F1 is becoming too much of a spec series v8's, v10's, and v12's should all be allowed. Also a v8 engine will have more stress to deal with than a v10, which is a big thing especially considering the one engine rule and the other rule's in the works to make engine's last even longer.

The boys at Speed hit on that a bit. They noted that costs will initally rise a great deal if you flip flop the formula all at once.

[marion5drsn]

To VAR1016: You have said what I would have said, so now I don't have to say it at all. I also would like to see where Wright came up with his 450 firing orders. I wonder how many mirror images he is counting? Is he counting mirrors on top of mirrors? Yours M.L. Anderson

[cartfan76]

didn't you learn any statistics in college? It's a simple formula that predicts the total number of combinations based on how many samples you have to randomize.

[marion5drsn]

To cartfan76:
I believe he had better learn to make simple diagrams to see the effects of a simple rotation of a 72 degree crankshaft cuts this down to about 24 in an extremely rapid form. Also the effects of trying to get the firing order to fire one side and then the other is also effective in the cutting of it down to the 24 plus mirror images cuts it down to 12 in a very rapid fashion.
I believe he put this in the book without thinking about it to any great degree.

M.L. Anderson

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by marion5drsn
To VAR1016: You have said what I would have said, so now I don't have to say it at all. I also would like to see where Wright came up with his 450 firing orders. I wonder how many mirror images he is counting? Is he counting mirrors on top of mirrors? Yours M.L. Anderson

Hello Marion:

Yes I think that I acknowledged in an earlier post that you had already posted on this subject - and because I agree 100% with what you said, quoted you indirectly!

regards

PdeRL