28 replies to this topic

[Mugen]

Please, direct me where I can find the detailed information about it. Thank you in advance.

[jgm]

F1 cars do have reverse gears. All the FIA regulations say is : 'All cars must have a reverse gear operable any time during the Event by the driver when the engine is running.' Beyond that it is up to the teams what they do. I assume these gears are as thin and light as possible since they are almost never used.

[Top Fuel F1]

Originally posted by Mugen
Please, direct me where I can find the detailed information about it. Thank you in advance. ;)

Re:

http://www.intof1.nl...ansmission.html

What I can find so far all I can find on the net is:
1. It's required
2. It's not to be used in the pits
3. It's a single ratio
4. It's external to the main gear box
5. It is not robust

How it is external, I don't know. Of course a planetary scheme would work.

[Wuzak]

No, it wouldn't be a planetary set up - just a normal spur gear set.

[kober]

I've heard somewhere that the car can go only like 20 meters on reverse, then it breaks up. But I'm not sure about this...

[TODave2]

Originally posted by Top Fuel F1
3. It's a single ratio

Does any car have more than one ratio in reverse?

[StickShift]

Last time I saw an F1 car reverse was this year at Indianapolis when Schumacher overshot his grid slot.

[Top Fuel F1]

Originally posted by TODave2


Does any car have more than one ratio in reverse?

Not any manual trans that I would know about. The only reason I mentioned it is because one web site had included that about the F1 reverse. As far as automatic trans, I could not say whether some one in the world had made one that might at some point in time.

[Bladrian]

On a more nostalgic note - I vaguely remember an early LSR car having it's achievements declared null and void by officials, on the grounds that it had no reverse gear. (The car in question may have been Mephistopheles, and the driver may have been S.F. Edge - but I could be completely wrong here!)
My interest is this: I believe that a reverse gear was cobbled up, in extremely crude fashion - does anybody know what form it took? And when was the last time a LSR car was actually required to have a reverse gear? I'm damn sure Thrust SSC doesn't have one .....

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by TODave2


Does any car have more than one ratio in reverse?

I believe some modern British armour have several reverse gear ratios - Scorpion? I'd have to check.

[Ross Stonefeld]

oh...the jokes...

[david_martin]

Originally posted by TODave2


Does any car have more than one ratio in reverse?

Sure - who could forget the famous Dutch DAF "variomatic" CVT cars which featured infinitely variable reverse gearing and could run as fast in reverse as they could in forward drive! This spawned the uniquely Dutch sport of reverse racing and which probably explains why so few of those cars can be found in good condition in The Netherlands today

[Ross Stonefeld]

Might explain why Jos has a tendency to enter the viewing screen diffuser first




sorry frans

[Pingu]

Originally posted by TODave2


Does any car have more than one ratio in reverse?

During WW2, all the Italian army's tanks, half-tracks and jeeps were rumoured to have one forward gear and seven reverses!

Yes, this is a joke.

[Ray Bell]

From 1961, with the introduction of the 1500cc F1, a reverse gear has been required, operable by the driver without alighting from the car (IIRC)... at the same time as the starter became mandatory.

Originally posted by TODave2
Does any car have more than one ratio in reverse?

Yes... the Lightburn Zeta for one...

Two stroke engines will run backwards as well as forwards, so in some rudimentary two-strokes it was necessary to stop the engine and flick a switch to spin the starter (and thus the engine) backwards. Then all four (or three, as the case may have been) gears became rese gears.

Another approach was the Austin Champ, in both RR and Austin-engined forms. It had only forward gears (albeit five of them) in the gearbox. Reverse was in the transfer case which also provided the high and low range and split the drive to go forward as well as aft. It therefore had either five or ten reverse gear ratios... I'm not sure which. The Champ was a Jeep-like military vehicle, the Austin engine coming in a civilian version.

[Mugen]

Thanks all!

[Pioneer]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
at the same time as the starter became mandatory.

But starters are not mandatory...

Were they at some point?

[Paul McLucas]

The CVT gearbox used in the current model Audi A4 works equally in forward and reverse, giving a theoretical top speed of over 200 kph in reverse. Not sure if anybody has tested it though.

Cheers

Paul

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by Bladrian


I believe some modern British armour have several reverse gear ratios - Scorpion? I'd have to check.

Yep - the Alvis Scorpion has SEVEN reverse speeds ..... it should be able to outrun any Italian armoured vehicles.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Pioneer
But starters are not mandatory...

Were they at some point?

What? Have they deleted them?

Yes, they were mandatory from 1961, and at least into the 3-litre formula.



On the subject of Italians and seven reverse gears... the same line was used in discussions about the Egyptians during the two wars (1967 & 1973?) with the Israelis.

[Pioneer]

There is a specific rule ALLOWING you to have an onboard starter but none that requires one.
Currently and as far back as I have been watching F1, no car has carried one.

[dolomite]

Riccardo Patrese was disqualified from qualifying from the 1991 Belgian GP due to his reverse gear being inoperative. This rule seems to have fallen into disuse subsequently.

[Barroschello]

NPiquet said that Brabham mechanics used to 'forget' to mount the reverse gear in order to save weight in the right places.
By the way, over the years I never heard about FIA scrutineers dismantling a gearbox or engine.
How do they check if an engine has really 3500cc?
Even the engine's eletronic management cell wasn't properly checked for traction control exitence.
NPiquet said that inspectors only looked for the total size of the file before and after the race, instead of looking inside the engine management algorithm.
That's indeed a stupid way to check a electronic device.

I believe FIA scrutinee is very limited in order to preserve industrial secrets of the inspected.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Pioneer
There is a specific rule ALLOWING you to have an onboard starter but none that requires one.
Currently and as far back as I have been watching F1, no car has carried one.

The rule originally required it to be there and to be working... no question of that.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Barroschello
NPiquet said that Brabham mechanics used to 'forget' to mount the reverse gear in order to save weight in the right places.
By the way, over the years I never heard about FIA scrutineers dismantling a gearbox or engine.
How do they check if an engine has really 3500cc?
Even the engine's eletronic management cell wasn't properly checked for traction control exitence.
NPiquet said that inspectors only looked for the total size of the file before and after the race, instead of looking inside the engine management algorithm.
That's indeed a stupid way to check a electronic device.

I believe FIA scrutinee is very limited in order to preserve industrial secrets of the inspected.

At Japan 1988, FISA were very keen that both Prost and Senna had equal machinery - after all the talk in recent years about favouratism (Mansell-Piquet etc). After the race (which Senna won having stalled at the start and raced back up the field), Prost complained of a baulky gearbox. The FISA technical delegates then proceeded to strip down his gearbox to find evidence of wrong doing - but found nothing wrong - the press speculated this was because their limited knowledge meant they didn't actually know what to look for in the first place!

On reverse gears - Mansell engaged it in the pits at Estoril 1989, and of course got disqualified for reversing in the pitlane.

[Barroschello]

Well, that's the point.
If F1 teams have the top of the crop in technology, how can marshalls control everything in due time.

[Ste]

First post in here guys,

as was said before F1 cars do have reverse gears. if only built for a few metres.

just to say Mika Hakkinen used it in the 99 Monaco gp to reverse out of a slip road, Muray was very worried that it would break as he was reversing

[mattemejl]

Originally posted by Barroschello

How do they check if an engine has really 3500cc?

Well, tell you a little secret: They´re not really 3500cc! They are 3000cc... ever since 1995, i believe...

[fattogatto]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


The rule originally required it to be there and to be working... no question of that.

There was a rule but maybe it was dropped. I was told by one who should know that the 1977 Ferrari F1 cars had a starter, similar to that used on F3000 cars. A one shot air bottle, the size of a medical oxygen bottle, that spun the air starter. It might work when cold, but definitely would not start the car when hot. It did, however, meet the requirement of an operative on board starter.