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#1 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 January 2003 - 21:29

I got a bit interested and looked up the history of Delahaye...

My particular interest lay in the 135 model that won the Australian Grand Prix of 1949. But I found the history of the company fascinating in itself.

The originator, Emile Delahaye, began production in 1894 but was to die just over a decade later. In 1901 he handed control of the company to his works manager, Charles Weiffenbach, who was to remain in charge until 1954... surely one of the longest reigns of a CEO in the industry?

Though they were involved in racing in the 'early-Hans' period, they gave it up in 1902 as racing cars became too specialised. They continued building upmarket 'passenger' cars until the depression cut in. Along the way they absorbed or formed alliances with Berliet, Unic, Donnic and Chenard et Walcker.

With the onset of the thirties, and the arrival of a designer named Jean Francois, they steered a new course for their carmaking, building relatively powerful and lightweight cars that were to set the scene with a 48-hour endurance run at Monthlery in 1934 at 107mph.

These platforms became a favourite of some of the coachbuilders, who set about creating Grand Touring cars that sold well. On top of that, returning to the circuits after an absence of over three decades saw the cars achieving well in racing.

As well as sports car events, they did, I'm sure, contest the odd open-wheeler race in a semi-stripped form. Can anyone add much to this line of thought?

It was in this form that John Snow raced his, acquired in 1938 during that spree that introduced a number of European cars to Australian circuits, for that all too short pre-WW2 period.

After the war he sold it to John Crouch, who won at Leyburn despite the presence of Frank Kleinig's 8-cyl Hudson Special. Kleinig had troubles, Crouch sped on and set fastest lap at 90mph en route to the win.

But the car missed the 1950 Australian GP due to a sale or impending sale in the wake of the 1949 event, and reappeared as the favourite for a win at Narrogin in Western Australia. This AGP was led initially by Crouch in a big-engined Cooper, but Dick Bland ultimately held the lead until he had to pit to lock his magneto on the correct timing mark.

Then came the trip home... and the end of the Delahaye's life in Australia... it's covered in the last section of this interesting Graham Howard overview of the problems and perils of crossing this vast continent in those days...

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So, to conclude here, what have others to add about the racing successes of the Delahaye 135? Or of its failures?

And what was the 145... how did it differ from its stablemate?

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 January 2003 - 21:41

Doug posted this picture a while ago:

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Originally posted by Vitesse2
What a wonderfully hideous assemblage of Delahayes! And two with the same number as well! German GP 1938 with the new, but practically useless, 155 at the front, carrying Dreyfus' number - just like the one at the back, which is the 145 monoplace he drove in the race. In the middle is the two-seater 145, built up on a 135 sports car chassis, and driven by Comotti. He also seems to have tried the 155, as there are pictures of him in both, with numbers as above, in Georgano.


Ugly, ain't they? :)

#3 David Beard

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Posted 14 January 2003 - 21:51

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Doug posted this picture a while ago:

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Ugly, ain't they? :)

Could be worse...could have a raised nose :

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 January 2003 - 21:51

We can do better than that, surely?

As the 135 was a 3.5-litre, what was the 145?

#5 David Beard

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Posted 14 January 2003 - 21:52

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Doug posted this picture a while ago:

Ugly, ain't they? :)


Could be worse...could have a raised nose :

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 January 2003 - 22:06

Originally posted by Ray Bell
We can do better than that, surely?


Easiest one to find quickly :)

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As the 135 was a 3.5-litre, what was the 145?


4490cc pushrod V12. Originally designed as a dual-purpose sports/racing car and fell between two stools. Dreyfus won in Pau, but more by accident than design (we had a thread on that race somewhere). The 135s became GP cars by default when the formula changed in 1938 (bear in mind the French had taken their ball home and run mainly sports car races in the years immediately before 1938) and the 145 was developed as a consequence of Delahaye's success in the Race to the Million. The 145 was totally outclassed by the German cars pre-war, although when they fell out the Delahayes picked up places (eg Germany 1939). They came out post-war, but were really no match even for the Talbot T26 series, and certainly not for the Alfettas.

#7 Marcor

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Posted 14 January 2003 - 23:06

Victories of the 135 (incomplete list, pre-war)

1935
26 May, Circuit du Loiret, for Sports cars (Orléans), Albert Perrot
30 June, Circuit de Lorraine (Nancy), Laury Schell
7 July, GP de Tourisme de La Marne (Reims), Albert Perrot

1936
4-6 pril, Criterium de Tourisme Paris-Nice, Laury Schell
24 May, 3 Heures de Marseille (Miramas), "Mich Paris"
14 June, Targa Bouzaréa, Georges Soulié
20 September, Coupes d'Automne de l'AGACI (Sports cars), Joseph Paul
20 September, Coupe de vitesse de l'AGACI (Racing cars), Joseph Paul

1937
2 May, Critérium des voitures de Tourisme (Monthléry), "Jacques Seylair"
2 May, Coupe du Printemps AGACI (Monthléry), Joseph Paul
24 July (?), Donington 12-Hour, "B. Bira" / Hector Dobbs
30 July - 06 August, Criterium de Tourisme Paris-Nice, Joseph Paul
7 August, Coupe du Prince Rainier (Monaco), Laury Schell
19 September, Coupe d'Automne (Monthléry), Joseph Paul

1938
22 May, Antwerp GP, Robert Mazaud
18-19 June, Le Mans 24-Hour, Eugène Chaboud / Jean Trémoulet
16 July, The Light Car Club 3-Hour, R. Jarvis / Jay Willing

1939
10-13 April, Critérium International de Tourisme Paris-Nice, Eugène Chaboud
20 May, Sydenham Plate, "B. Bira"

#8 john medley

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Posted 15 January 2003 - 04:09

Anthony Blight's The French Sports Car Revolution ( a wonderful book) has much of the information you seek re 135s generally, John Snow's 135, the 145, and lots more.

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 January 2003 - 10:41

You'll let me borrow it next time I come through?

Actually, the plush Grand Tourers appeal to me as well... found some via google...

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This interesting 'woody' was one I found...

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...this is a little different... from 1936...

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And all of this is a long way from the racer regularly depicted in books and magazines covering our racing between 1939 and 1950...

#10 David McKinney

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Posted 15 January 2003 - 11:29

Ah! The glories of Phoney and Flashy bodywork :lol:

#11 dmj

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Posted 16 January 2003 - 00:37

I am confuzed with Ford Blitz van mentioned in article. I only ever knew of Opel Blitz...

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 21:48

A Ford Blitz was a military truck of the WW2 period.

Sorry I didn't see your post earlier... here's a pic, but the 'Blitz' trucks came as Chevys (the one with the badge showing here is such) as well as Ford.

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#13 eldougo

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 10:47

:clap:
dmj

I am confuzed with Ford Blitz van mentioned in article. I only ever knew of Opel Blitz...

We had a FORD BLITZ on our farm in Hampton , I learnt to drive in it GREAT FUN. :up:

#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 21 February 2003 - 12:44

Now, I'm assuming this must be the same car.... I'd guess there was only one burnt out Delahaye in Oz!

There's a piece about Delahaye 135s in the March issue of "The Automobile". There were 14 originally, with several replicas having been built up over the years, the history of all of them being complicated by the absence of reliable factory chassis records. Ian Polson is currently building another "particularly accurate" replica - he is described as having owned until recently "a genuine 135SC which he located in Australia as a burnt-out wreck". Even replicas command prices around the ÂŁ400,000 mark :eek:

However, it appears there are a number of fakes in circulation, some of which have been offered at auction. They seem to emanate from Argentina, where there are reports of a warehouse containing no less than five. The bodywork is apparently excellent at first glance (but framed with tubular steel rather than wood) and the engines are Delahaye (but not genuine 135SC units). However, a recently examined example had a chassis made from the wrong gauge of steel, a gearbox which probably came from a post-war lorry, a back axle from an American or Australian saloon car, the wrong type of brakes and - unbelievably - no handbrake at all! In addition the steering is described as "downright dangerous".

#15 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 February 2003 - 05:14

Yes, the Snow/Crouch/Bland car has been rebuilt in England...

Those fakes sound... well... pretty fake.

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:20

Look at what I found...

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John Crouch, 1946 at Bathurst... on Conrod Straight of course.

#17 Geoff E

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 09:14

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Actually, the plush Grand Tourers appeal to me as well... found some via google...

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...this is a little different... from 1936...

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Um, it is the same car surely.

Did they drive them when it was dark?

#18 marat

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 09:17

Regarding the 135 , in a recent book on coachbuilding, Dominique Pagneux wrote:
"chassis in railtrack rails and truck engines".
Of course all owners are upset but it explains the always increasing number of fakes.
It is also evidence that the postwar coachbuilders bodies were big and heavy and needed
such a strong chassis.

#19 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 09:55

Originally posted by Geoff E
Um, it is the same car surely.

Did they drive them when it was dark?


My comment related to the difference between the 'woody' and the car above... it was a comment that was under the 'woody' rather than above the lower car.

I'd say they did drive after dark, the headlights being behind grilles like other French cars of the era... particularly the Peugeot 402 range.

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#20 Egon Thurner

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 11:35

Here the pictures of some nice rebodied Delahayes:

pre-war:
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post-war:
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pictures: courtesy by McRonalds (as usual)

#21 Geoff E

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 12:42

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'd say they did drive after dark, the headlights being behind grilles like other French cars of the era... particularly the Peugeot 402 range.


I see what you mean with the 402 - however the central grille seems rather "dense" on the Delahaye, so perhaps the smaller grilles contained the lights.

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 13:08

I think you can just see a little of the lights behind the small grilles...

#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 13:21

Strange, you know...

I'd have thought someone would be happy to see a colour photo of a Delahaye racing in 1946. There is one other pic, too...

#24 Aurelio Lampredi

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 15:26

Originally posted by Geoff E


I see what you mean with the 402 - however the central grille seems rather "dense" on the Delahaye, so perhaps the smaller grilles contained the lights.


If you look at the picture more carefully you will find out that the "density" of the central grille is exactly the same with the density of the smaller grilles.

#25 dretceterini

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 16:15

THe coupe pictured at the Rodeo concours in Beveerly Hills was restored at Hill and Vaughn at least 15 years ago. I don't know if it has been re-restored since..

Jay leno has (or had) a nice 135...an MS, I think...

#26 john medley

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 20:55

Certainly, Ray, there is one person right here pleased to see that 1946 colour photo of John Crouch 's Delahaye 1946 at Bathurst, confirming the slightly darkish blue that I recall from colour movies I saw long ago ( but confounding a mental picture I've held for years of a lighter pastelized paint colour when in Dick Bland's hands). So, what's the other photo, then?

#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 22:16

You probably guessed this, John...

The pictures are stills taken from the 16mm movie. But there can be little doubt about the darkness of the blue, as the rest of the colours are appropriate.

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Clive comes through again...

#28 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 23:16

There's an interesting follow-up to the Automobile article I mentioned. In the June issue they report a letter from a gentleman called Antoine Friderich, who lives in Grasse and is presumably a relative of Ernest, of Bugatti fame (and recent TNFery!)

According to Monsieur Friderich, and contrary to popular opinion, chassis numbers were meticulously recorded, along with precise design and development details and racing histories for all the pre-war cars. This documentation is now in the possession of the Friderich family, apparently.

To quote the editor of The Automobile: "I wonder if Pierre Abeillon, the leading Delahaye historian, is aware of all this?"

#29 GIGLEUX

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Posted 17 May 2003 - 10:07

Pierre Abeillon has all the chassis numbers of the Delahaye 135 S and all the pedigrees but doesn't want to publish them, for personnal reasons I longly discuss with him.
Is somebody ready to send me photocops of The Autmobile articles published in March and June issues? By advance thanks!

#30 GIGLEUX

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Posted 17 May 2003 - 10:23

Pierre Abeillon has all the 135 S chassis numbers and their pedigrees but doesn't want to publish them for personnal reasons I longly discussed with him.
Is somebody ready to send me photocops of the articles published in the march an june issues of The Automobile? By advance thanks!

#31 Egon Thurner

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Posted 17 May 2003 - 10:23

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Pierre Abeillon has all the chassis numbers of the Delahaye 135 S and all the pedigrees but doesn't want to publish them, for personnal reasons I longly discuss with him.

Indeed very interesting ... am intrigued, what 'personnal reasons' that are ...

#32 GIGLEUX

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Posted 17 May 2003 - 11:47

Stupid, when wanting to send the first reply it was not possible so following what was written on my computer I sent second one; of course the two are now on the thread! stupid but good for my stats!!!
Egon, excuse me but personnal means....personnal.Nevertheless I give you two clues:
-Pierre is now a semi-professional and realized that it's better to be a consultant than to write in magazines. In fact don't put the business on the pavement!
-Imagine a car sell by auction as being the winner of an important race ...The new owner asks you, as you are known as an expert of the marque what do you think of his car, and you answer: "sorry but it is the one which finished second! What happened after that. I believe that in english it is: to put the cat amongst the pigeons!

#33 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 May 2003 - 11:59

Jean-Maurice: perhaps I shouldn't have used the word article. These were merely news items, from which I extracted the relevant details. Back issues of articles in The Automobile should be downloadable in PDF format from www.oldcar-discoveries.com but it doesn't seem to be working properly! When I tried to get the March Editor's Page, I got January! :stoned:

#34 john ruston

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 10:53

The Australian winning 135 is at present owned by Peter Mullern.

The full history of the car is with Ian Polson who advertises in most of the classic car magzines and owned the car for 30 years after its accident returning from WA.

Whilst I owned the car it won the Oldtimer pre-40 race at the Nurburgring 1999 with Ian Polson doing the preparation.

Hope this helps.

John Ruston

#35 VDP

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 08:40

I've read also that former president of Delahaye club F. Jolly wrote also a book about 135 and derivates. I wonder also on what base was made the Eugène Chaboud special in 1949


Robert

#36 john ruston

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 07:08

THE CROUCH 135 WAS BURNT WHILST ON A FORD LONG NOSE FLATBED.IAN POLSON KNOWS THE COMPLETE STORY AND IS ON HIS WAY TO AUS THIS WEEK WITH THE GAZE ALTA FOR PHILIP ISLAND.LEAVE IT WITH YOU.

#37 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 20:43

Are you saying that Graham Howard's account of the return from Western Australia is incorrect?

Check the last paragraph of the page from the book I posted in the initial post in this thread... it clearly says it was on a trailer... that the trailer, tow vehicle and race car were burned out.

#38 john ruston

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 05:51

I.S.P. HAS ALL THE INFO. A PHOTO EXISTS OF THE WRECK CAUSED BY A ERRANT CIG. SURE YOU CAN CATCH HIM IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS IN AUS.

#39 alex bland

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 13:51

Dick Bland is an uncle of mine, the Delahaye was indeed on a ford v8 truck, i have several photos of it. The fire was so hot, the steel frame around the tray folded. He also raced 2 George Reed special ford v8s, and a Dixon Riley, following the Delahaye. If anyone would like to know more information, and if anyone has any photos of any of these cars, please email me. thanks!
Alex Bland

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#40 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 21:20

Welcome Alex!

Did Dick leave any photos behind too? I spoke to him only the once, probably about two years before he died, I hope the bees were good to him in those final years.

I also see George from time to time. Have you been in touch with him? He would have plenty of photos, even though he and Dick fell out over tyres in 1949. They ultimately made up again.

I'm sure Max Stahl has some photos of them together at the launch of the John Medley Bathurst book...

As for photos of the burned out wreck, I somehow missed John Ruston's last post. Who or what is ISP?

#41 Dutchy

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 12:02

Ian Polson, well known UK fettler of Talbots