345 replies to this topic

[917k]

What is the rational behind this thinking?[besides discomfort]

http://www.pitpass.c...cfm?newsid=4490


I would think that enough testing has proved its worth,without resorting to hypothetical situations.

[se7en_24]

It explains the reasoning in the article

"Diniz would have been killed if he had been wearing the HANS device when he had his big accident," added the Canadian, referring to Pedro Diniz' accident on the first lap of the European GP in 1999 at the Nurburgring, when the Brazilian's Sauber overturned. "So the only one time it would have made a difference it would have killed someone. On that basis it's wrong for us drive with it."

[MortenF1]

It shouldn't be mandatory...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well thats only the opinion of Dr Jacques Villeneuve



Until Watkins says it I dont want to hear any complaining

[se7en_24]

I agree Ross, I was just saying thats their reasoning. Although I guess HANS is a bit more suited to tin tops which tend to deform less in a crash, which causes this problem with the neck. I guess its a similar argument to seatbelts in road cars which can in some cases make a crash far worse but in most cases help.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Are they really necessary in an F1 car? As far as I know, the steering wheel is designed to absorb head impact, so if the steering wheel is close enough to the head, the driver's neck can't stretch enough to brake the base of the skull.

[Raelene]

MS has said that it is very uncomfortable, but they will keep working on it until they figure out a solution.

[917k]

Originally posted by se7en_24
It explains the reasoning in the article

"Diniz would have been killed if he had been wearing the HANS device when he had his big accident," added the Canadian, referring to Pedro Diniz' accident on the first lap of the European GP in 1999 at the Nurburgring, when the Brazilian's Sauber overturned. "So the only one time it would have made a difference it would have killed someone. On that basis it's wrong for us drive with it."

This is one,very isolated instance.HANS is designed for frontal impact,something that happens,or will happen,at virtually every GP.

[The First MH]

I don't think any of the drivers want to see themselves get hurt from racing, so I think the drivers should be able to choose whether they want to use it or not.

[StickShift]

uh, and why would it of killed Diniz?

[kodandaram]

I think Jacques has a point here. The HANS device must be tested a lot more in my opinion and if the drivers are not comfy with it I don't think the FIA must push it forward. If it is so difficult that the drivers can't turn to see the mirrors then it could be more dangerous to have the drivers wear them than to have them drive without it.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Mercedes tested it. The FIA tested it. North American universities tested it. its been used in racing to great acclaim and great success. What super special double secret test needs to go on before F1 drivers feel its been tested properly

[StickShift]

and more so, the severity of Deniz's crash was because Sauber was cheating the rules and made their roll hope lighter/weaker.

[kodandaram]

Look it accounts to nothing what Mercedes tested . Do you have any details about the test ? Was it with one of their drivers in a f1 car ? did they ask Mika or david or kimi or wurz to test it ? My point is that while the device is being used successfully in oval racing and other motorsport disciplines , the FIA should ask the 22 drivers to test the device and give their opinion.

If the majority of the drivers are against it then I don't think they should force the issue. You and I can't say what is required to make the device more friendly in a f1 car . It can only be ascertained by the drivers. So when the drivers are not happy with it and the people associated with the device can't answer the questions associated with it or allay the fears of the drivers , then how fair is it of the FIA to force the drivers to wear it.

After all it is for the safety of the drivers that the FIA made this compulsory. So why not convince the drivers it is safe before the season starts ???

[RiverRunner]

Gonzalo Rodriguez and Dale Earbhardt would be alive today if they had been wearing one, that was enough for me to be convinced of it's usefulness.
They are fools to not wear one.
So be it.

[StickShift]

Gonzalo wouldn't be alive.

[RiverRunner]

Originally posted by StickShift
Gonzalo wouldn't be alive.

he most certainly would have been, in fact his accident would be the one that the HANS device would be most effective for. The rescue crew from the series I was in at the time, the IHBA, was first on the scene so I had a graphic description of what occured about an hour later.

[Todd]

How long did seatbelts exist before a majority of competitive drivers WANTED to use them? How many lives could have been saved had hard shell helmets been compulsory as soon as they'd been proven effective? How many hockey players would be less mangled had there been no grandfather clause to allow them to resist adoption of safety gear? Ultimately, it is the stupid who are punished, but that doesn't make stupidity an admirable trait.

Someday, maybe JV will be able to make headlines without making an ass of himself. Making an ass of himself seems to be the only weapon in his attention hound arsenal though.

[ehagar]

I guess the only question I would have is the effect the device has in non-frontal impact crashes. What is the effect if a car backs into a wall (there are presumably enough human guinea pigs in Nascar, CART, and IRL to determine this)? Side impact?

I would assume there would be studies on such things. There have been enough crashes in American racing to study. But I can understand the concern about side and rear crashes expressed by the drivers. It just doesn't look like it can help in those cases.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by kodandaram
Look it accounts to nothing what Mercedes tested .


My point is that while the device is being used successfully in oval racing and other motorsport disciplines , the FIA should ask the 22 drivers to test the device and give their opinion.

Now we dont trust the research of one of the world's largest researchers? Yeah, I suppose you're right; we should be listening to JV and JPM because of all their educaitonal experience and credentials in crashes and crash safety

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld




Now we dont trust the research of one of the world's largest researchers? Yeah, I suppose you're right; we should be listening to JV and JPM because of all their educaitonal experience and credentials in crashes and crash safety

Personally I mis-trust the results of most of these researchers. In general they have a vested interest in the results and will go out of their way to find the result they want.

If the drivers (and it does appear it is the majority) say they are not happy with it and that they feel it is unsafe, then theirs is the word I'll trust.

[MJP]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld




Now we dont trust the research of one of the world's largest researchers? Yeah, I suppose you're right; we should be listening to JV and JPM because of all their educaitonal experience and credentials in crashes and crash safety

Its possible, that both, drivers and researcher are correct. Driver's might be wise to wear neck protection, but if that is uncomfortable, and pain causing (as Nick H. claimed), then they should not be forced to wear one. I ususally try not to listen what those two drivers saying, but I seems to remember, that in CART we heard the same opinion. I think therefore that complaints do merit an investigation, and for now only voluntary deployment. At least for 2003 and until they had it sorted out.

[Clatter]

Has there actually been any injuries etc in F1 that could have been avoided if the driver had been wearing the HANs device?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Ive heard Senna had a basalar skull fracture at Imola, though I forgot where I saw it. It was a reliable source.


I dont think Merc and the FIA had an interest in seeing HANS succeed. The drivers arent qualified to say whehter its safe or not. Sure its uncomfortable. But so are racing seatbelts, helmets and 3-layer suits

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Ive heard Senna had a basalar skull fracture at Imola, though I forgot where I saw it. It was a reliable source.


I dont think Merc and the FIA had an interest in seeing HANS succeed. The drivers arent qualified to say whehter its safe or not. Sure its uncomfortable. But so are racing seatbelts, helmets and 3-layer suits

He also has a suspension arm through the skull. Its not a good example because of other factors.

Actually I believe the drivers are the best ones to say if its safe or not, as they are the ones who will actually be using it.

How many of the researchers have actually used this device in an F1 environment?

[dan2k]

Doesnt the hans device keep your head from moving left or right?
If thats true, how will drivers look left-right, to aim for the apex, when their head is fixed in a position?
When we watch onboard shots, or close ups, we see some drivers like to lean left-right as they turn into a corner.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You dont understand. An F1 driver only knows if its comfortable or not. He has no idea if it works or how effective it is. The researchers do. And actually the guys who initially designed HANS are sportscar racers


Dan the drivers will just have to learn how to look with their eyes and not their heads. CART guys can do it, F1 will manage just fine

[Clatter]

But what works in a sportscar does not mean it will work in an F1 car. The seating position etc is vastly different.

You cannot just write off the drivers opions in this way. Its similiar to the way our (British) goverment write off parents concerns about MMR vacinations. They and the experts always know best and no one else counts.

[Ross Stonefeld]

They make a different HANS for the various types of vehicles, mainly based on the seating angle in that vehicle.

Ever wonder why they're experts? Give me one reason why JV is qualified to talk about the effectivness, on a scientific level, of safety accesories against a safety expert? Do you think he can say to Sparco "your suit isnt flame proof, I know it because it feels too thin" or to Bell "your helmet is going to kill me, it feels too light" in spite of facts to the contrary?


People vastly overrate the drivers opinions. All they do is drive. They arent neccessarily even going to be experts on how to drive.

[pRy]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Ive heard Senna had a basalar skull fracture at Imola, though I forgot where I saw it. It was a reliable source.

Thats pretty much irrelevant, he was hit by a tyre.

[Clatter]

Give me one reason why someone who has probably never even sat in, or driven in a modern F1 car is more qualfied to say what is or is not safe.

I'm sorry but the experts have a vested interest, I.E. they are being paid to produce a report. They will produce a report that says what the backers wants to hear.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Its completely relevant as HANS is the device that prevents BSF and JV made the comments no accident involved BSF. Plus the argument of "well if not for the tire Senna would be alive"

[pRy]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Its completely relevant as HANS is the device that prevents BSF and JV made the comments no accident involved BSF. Plus the argument of "well if not for the tire Senna would be alive"

I assumed the flying tyre caused both the injuries... is Hans meant to protect against moving objects that impact against the drivers body?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Clatter
Give me one reason why someone who has probably never even sat in, or driven in a modern F1 car is more qualfied to say what is or is not safe.

I'm sorry but the experts have a vested interest, I.E. they are being paid to produce a report. They will produce a report that says what the backers wants to hear.

Because they're researchers. The FIA has no interest in what happens in HANS. The drivers are no more qualified to say HANS is ineffective than a mechanic or a BB member. They have no idea what they are talking about. Have they run tests? No. Have they analysed the results from the tests they havent run? No. Use of the device personally and expertise are not the same. I drive a Renault road car. Im not qualified to give expert testimony on Renault chassis, engines, or Pirelli tires just on the basis of plopping my rump in the seat every morning. Nor is JV or JPM qualified to discuss the effectivness of HANS.


pRy HANS is to keep the neck and head in place. If it snaps around too violently the spine disconnects from the base of your skull and you die. Now if you got hit from behind by something hard enough it would knock your had forward, but thats pretty difficult, and an impact back really isnt going to do anything. HANS does stabilise side to side so would provide protection from debris, but the main issue is the head and neck going too far forward.

[kodandaram]

Ross I gather you are very much in favour of HANS device ..... and I appreciate it . I am NOT against this safety device being used in F1 ....my point is that it doesn't matter what Mercedes or any other big name company tested .....the important thing is was the test carried out by an active f1 driver/drivers ? were the simulations carried out in real time by crash testing an active F1 driver in a up to date F1 car ? ........... things like that ....

..........and it is things like that which cause concern to drivers . The other thing is , while JV may not be scientifically analysing the issue he is qualified well and truly to air his opinions sine he is the one who is supposed to wear it !!! If indeed the device can cause harm then it is JV or the driver concerned who has to bear the brunt. Right ? So what I am saying is .. why not allow these drivers to get an in - depth look at all the research that these big name companies have done and then try convincing them ?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Of course they dont use live F1 drivers, that'd be illegal and stupid. They use F1 monocoque sleds and dummies, much like they use in F1 crash tests and road car crash tests.


The drivers dont need to be convinced. THey are acting on emotion and not facts or even sense. They need to be told what to do because that the only way they are going to do it.



Drivers who have died from HANS preventable injuries
1994 - F1 - Roland Ratzenberger
1999 - CART - Gonzalo Rodriguez
2000 - NASCAR - Kenny Irwin
2000 - NASCAR - Adam Petty
2001 - NASCAR - Dale Earnhardt
2001 - NASCAR - Tony Roper

Drivers who have died from HANS preventable injuries and other injrues (ie they'd have died from the other stuff regardless)
1994 - F1 - Ayrton Senna
1999 - CART - Greg Moore


But hey, JV doesnt like it, so everyone return your HANS device

[pRy]

What exactly does the hans device do? prevent the head moving sidewards?

1994 - F1 - Roland Ratzenberger

Roland died because his car hit the wall and his head flew sideways and hit the wall too. Would Hans have prevented his head from moving that much, even at such high speed? I'm not sure how it works. Does it hold the head back? I think there is two theorys with Senna. We know that the tyre went up against the side of his cockpit and a rod penetrated his visor, and there is evidence the tyre also hit the side of his helmet.. but someone suggested his head also hit the wall, but I'm not so sure about that one.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Of course they dont use live F1 drivers, that'd be illegal and stupid. They use F1 monocoque sleds and dummies, much like they use in F1 crash tests and road car crash tests.


The drivers dont need to be convinced. THey are acting on emotion and not facts or even sense. They need to be told what to do because that the only way they are going to do it.



Drivers who have died from HANS preventable injuries
1994 - F1 - Roland Ratzenberger
1999 - CART - Gonzalo Rodriguez
2000 - NASCAR - Kenny Irwin
2000 - NASCAR - Adam Petty
2001 - NASCAR - Dale Earnhardt
2001 - NASCAR - Tony Roper

Drivers who have died from HANS preventable injuries and other injrues (ie they'd have died from the other stuff regardless)
1994 - F1 - Ayrton Senna
1999 - CART - Greg Moore


But hey, JV doesnt like it, so everyone return your HANS device

As far as F1 goes I'd be quite surprised if HANS would have saved the lifes of either RR or AS.

No one is saying a driver cant use HANS, just that they should have the choice.

[samanloinen]

3 points

1. How can one argue from the standpoint that the testing engineers and scientists have no experience in the car rendering their opinion useless? Arguement on the same grounds (drivers have no experience in the laboratory) also renders the driver's opinion useless. Perhaps both have something important to say, and the solution is that the use of HANS should be voluntary. The scientists are satisfied (Darwinian theory will eliminate some of those who choose not to use it) and so are the drivers (some lives may be saved, others will be more comfortable).

2. The mistrust of scientific experts here is a cause for concern. How many of those who mistrust them are actually scientific researchers? If you have never done high-level scientific research then perhaps it is best to limit your judgement until you know the facts. I don't mean the "facts" reported in mass media. I mean those reported in peer-reviewed publications. In those publications, there is hardly any room for opinion.


3. If I'm not mistaken, Ross is a racer and perhaps a closet DeYoung fan (European no less!). Therefore he has some idea of what he is talking about from the driver's perspective.

Swish!

[Clatter]

Originally posted by samanloinen
3 points

1. How can one argue from the standpoint that the testing engineers and scientists have no experience in the car rendering their opinion useless? Arguement on the same grounds (drivers have no experience in the laboratory) also renders the driver's opinion useless. Perhaps both have something important to say, and the solution is that the use of HANS should be voluntary. The scientists are satisfied (Darwinian theory will eliminate some of those who choose not to use it) and so are the drivers (some lives may be saved, others will be more comfortable).

2. The mistrust of scientific experts here is a cause for concern. How many of those who mistrust them are actually scientific researchers? If you have never done high-level scientific research then perhaps it is best to limit your judgement until you know the facts. I don't mean the "facts" reported in mass media. I mean those reported in peer-reviewed publications. In those publications, there is hardly any room for opinion.


3. If I'm not mistaken, Ross is a racer and perhaps a closet DeYoung fan (European no less!). Therefore he has some idea of what he is talking about from the driver's perspective.

Swish!

1 Agreed, it should be voluntary.

2 Experts have been proven to be wrong, often with devastating effects!!!

3. If we are not to consider an F1 drivers opinion, what makes Ross's perspective any more relevant?

[Tomecek]

Villeneuve is supposed to be expert on HANS I guess I wonder why nobody died because of HANS yet in CART or IRL.

[BARnone]

Originally posted by Tomecek
Villeneuve is supposed to be expert on HANS I guess I wonder why nobody died because of HANS yet in CART or IRL.

Using your logic I could question why no one has died in F1 without it?

BARnone.

[cheesy poofs]

I'd like to hear DaMatta's view on this. He's the only current F1 driver that was using it full time last year.

[TheD2JBug]

Dude.. Ross bases his opinion on the factual studies of the use of the device in open wheel and NASCAR over here.

[Kerb Bouncer]

While NASCAR did not adopt HANS as a regulation, isn't it true that most NASCAR drivers did move to using the HANS device after Earnhardt's death ?

I find it interesting that while the argument is made that the advanced technology, which F1 represents, makes this series the pinnacle of the sport, that people will whine about research. What good would it do for researchers to botch their work or cook the books in favor of their sponsors ? [I know the tobacco companies tried this, but they had to buy and hide the research that turned against their position. But then again, let's not make tobacco mad.]

Do you think that Ferrari guessed about the reliability or speed or their car, or that anyone else did (except, Honda).

I respect drivers' opinions, but if we are going for comfort, let's go back to polo shirts and cloth helmets. And about a third of the grid dying every two-three years.

[TheD2JBug]

Dude .. a head restraint system is mandatory in NASCAR now .. Tony was the last to go ..

[DoS]

Originally posted by samanloinen
3 points

1. How can one argue from the standpoint that the testing engineers and scientists have no experience in the car rendering their opinion useless? Arguement on the same grounds (drivers have no experience in the laboratory) also renders the driver's opinion useless. Perhaps both have something important to say, and the solution is that the use of HANS should be voluntary. The scientists are satisfied (Darwinian theory will eliminate some of those who choose not to use it) and so are the drivers (some lives may be saved, others will be more comfortable).

2. The mistrust of scientific experts here is a cause for concern. How many of those who mistrust them are actually scientific researchers? If you have never done high-level scientific research then perhaps it is best to limit your judgement until you know the facts. I don't mean the "facts" reported in mass media. I mean those reported in peer-reviewed publications. In those publications, there is hardly any room for opinion.


3. If I'm not mistaken, Ross is a racer and perhaps a closet DeYoung fan (European no less!). Therefore he has some idea of what he is talking about from the driver's perspective.

Swish!

I am a scientific researcher, and if all the drivers were saying "its no good as it is for f1" i d listen to them.

[JVRACER]

Most people are missing the point to Jacques ranting. The bloody thing makes him and some other

drivers terribly uncomfortable ,i.e. trouble concentrating , consistant pain and bruising on the

neck , and hinderance in looking at mirrors. I agree there should be testing and more research on

making this device as wearable as possible. But by the time Melbourne rolls around and this has

not been accomplished, making it mandatory to wear it , its detrimental to safety for everyone.

Whether or not if this device could have saved our beloved drivers of the past is pure

speculation.God had chosen that moment and its a bitter pill we have to live with. But when a

driver like Montoya and Jacques and Jenson complain that the device flat out hurts and

comprimises thier attention to driving the car its a concern the FIA should take seriously.

Remember, what does Jacques and the other drivers have to gain by this besides just driving the

car the way He's used too? .I think you are going to see a good amount of drivers before or

directly after Melbourne screaming for the device to be shelved until some more research can be

performed. I wouldnt be surprised to see the many of the shifting in the seat drivers ( Montoya ,

Schumi , Jacques ) bitching and getting the damn this to be optional. I am a huge fan of safety !,

the last thing I ever want to go through again is someone like Moore disappearing into memory,

but I a driver says to me that it might cause more harm than good and it flat out isnt wearable Id

listen. If you like it so much wear it when you sit in your recliner sofa, these guys should have the

option to any safety device that is attached to thier bodies. (Don't even bring up seat belts here

becouse you know damn well everyone is smart enough to wear them.)

[Ross Stonefeld]

They've been wearing HANS in CART for several years. They've been researching its adaptation to F1 for a while now and this is going to like the third time they've postponed making it mandatory

[Manson]

I really don't understand why the drivers are against it. Here I am wearing mine, you can't even tell. My car was built for it. Now it isn't an F1 car but the confines are pretty tight.



After Dale's death, I did some research and found out the Rodriguez was killed at an impact speed of only 70 mph (110 kph)! Our cars do well over that. Ross has listed driver's that likely wouldn't have been killed had they been wearing one. Factor in Gugelman at Texas who likely would have been killed without one.

Personally I don't find it restrictive, it's at least as comfortable as the belts if not more so. I can see fine out the sides without any mirrors which would be easier to view. C'mon Jacques, Jenson etc., would you drive with an open face helmet? No suit would be a lot cooler on those hot days in July. No? Didn't think so.