Jump to content


Photo

Maserati 8CM & 6C/34


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#1 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 26 January 2003 - 20:33

I always follow forum threads relating to pre-war Maseratis with great interest.

I was wondering if anyone has come up with a complete (well, reasonably complete giving the subject matter!) chassis history for the closely related 8CM & 6C/34 models, including their present whereabouts and states?

Here is a brief rundown of chassis history as I understand it, including first owners and present locations: -

8CM 3005 (Taruffi)
Recently raced by Robert Brooks
Now in Dutch Motor Museum/Private Ownership?

8CM 3006 (Zehender)
Chassis used for 8CM 3020

8CM 3007 (Nuvolari)
Chassis used for 8CM 3016

8CM 3008 (Ruesch)
???

8CM 3009 (Braillard)
Recently restored by Sean Danaher in the UK

8CM 3010 (Etanelin)
Now in Mulhouse Museum in France

8CM 3011 (Straight)
Also Prince Bira Car
Now owned by Peter Giddings in the USA

8CM 3012 (Straight)
Converted to a sportscar by Straight
Now back to GP trim in USA?

8CM 3013 (Howe)
Currently for sale at DK Engineering UK

8CM 3014 (Pedrazzini)
Written off in fatal crash

8CM 3015 (Braillard)
Body incorporating headrest and radiator chrome cowl
Now in Italy?

8CM 3016 (Straight)
Written off in Hugh Hamilton fatal crash

8CM 3017 NOT BUILT

8CM 3018 (Nuvolari)
Now in Donington Collection UK

8CM 3019 (Villapadierna)
???

8CM 3020 (Villapadierna)
Fitted with pre-selector gearbox as a modern mod?
Now with Stephen Rettenmaier in Germany

8CM-6C/34 3021 (???)
???

8CM-6C/34 3022 (Ruesch)
Written off in Bradzil fatal crash

6C/34 3023 (Rovere)
Rebuilt in recent years by Bill Summers/David Black
Now with Tony Merrick UK?

6C/34 3024 (Ruesch)
Written off by Paul Pietsch in 1937 Masaryk GP crash?
Engine used in German hillclimb car
Engine now with 3023?

6C/34 3025 (Scuderia Subalpina)
With experimental torsion bar suspension
Recovered from Brazil by Maserati factory in 1950s as chassis only
Now being restored in Germany, as detailed in recent thread?

6C/34 3026 (Scuderia Subalpina)
???

8CM 3027 (Taruffi)
???

There is also the recent 6C/34 sportscar recreation containing original parts but with a new chassis frame. Does this have an original engine?

I hope this thread provokes some renewed interest in these fantastic, powerful cars.

Advertisement

#2 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 28 January 2003 - 13:22

Where have all the Maserati enthusiasts gone?!

Another question (if anyone is there!); were the pre-selector gearboxes used in some of these cars (including the Whitney Straight chassis 3011 & 3012) built specially, or were they "off the shelf" items?

I believe Nuvolari bought one off Straight to use in his car after he had broken a leg in a racing accident with his 8CM 3007. However, I believe that he did not like the gearbox, or indeed pre-selectors in general.

This seems strange as apart from complaints regarding the extra weight of the units, all other drivers of the period seem to praise them?

#3 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 28 January 2003 - 14:27

I will have to find my notes on these cars and see what I have. Generally, over the years I have given up on what went where and to whom and when after their active careers ended. But, that's just me... I may not be able to get to this for a few days, but I will make an attempt since I happen to love these cars.

#4 dretceterini

dretceterini
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 28 January 2003 - 17:26

I love these cars too, but I know nothing of the individual histories other than what has appeared in books and on this site.

#5 McRonalds

McRonalds
  • Member

  • 444 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 28 January 2003 - 17:38

Originally posted by Steve L
8CM 3016 (Straight)
Written off in Hugh Hamilton fatal crash


Are you sure? I saw pictures of the crashed car and it did not look THAT bad after the crash. Considering that, I'm not sure if the car has not been restored.

#6 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 28 January 2003 - 18:26

I have to admit, I haven't carried out any intensive research into the subject. My information comes from reading various books and magazines and also seeing the cars in the metal.

As far as 3016 (aka 3007) goes, the Hugh Hamilton crash must have been at least its second serious shunt - I believe Nuvolari stuffed it pretty comprehensively into the scenery at one point.

Considering the infamous strength (or lack of it) of the frame design, it would have taken someone very brave to have raced it again!

As a point of interest, how many other 8CMs had their chassis "boxed" apart from 3007,11 & 12?

Another 8C Maserati link - I believe a privateer bought a Maserati engine to use in his Bugatti T35/51 chassis in the 1930s. I wonder if this has survived?

#7 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,263 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 30 January 2003 - 12:22

Some infos on the 8 CM on :

http://www.barchetta...N.Tipo.8.CM.htm

= = = = =

Question :
Orsini/Zagari quote 256 centimetre for the wheelbase of the 8 CM, and 265 centimetre for the 6 C 34.
Is this correct, or should it be 256 (resp. 265) in both cases?

= = = = =

Pre-selector box :
The "off the shelf" Wilson boxes were classified according to the torque which could be transmitted. If an "off the shelf" unit was used, was the box choosen exactly according to the effective torque or was it possible to choose a smaller one, because of the uniformly distributed torque of the 8-cylinder?

#8 Leif Snellman

Leif Snellman
  • Member

  • 1,129 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 23 February 2003 - 17:05

There seems to be two definite types of 8CMs, the ones with bent and the ones with straight exhausts. I'm not sure if that corresponds to 62 cm vs the 82 cm width on the chassis. Or are several of the 8CM pictures in fact showing 6C/34s ?

Do we all agree that chassis 3004, mentioned 7 times by Sheldon (3 times for Straight/Hamilton
and 4 times for Sommer ) in fact did not exist?

Were all three Straight cars rebuilt and pointed white/blue?

#9 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 23 February 2003 - 20:29

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
Do we all agree that chassis 3004, mentioned 7 times by Sheldon (3 times for Straight/Hamilton
and 4 times for Sommer ) in fact did not exist?

C/nos 3001 and 3002 were wide-bodied cars of the type usually called 8C-3000
3003 was an engine only
3004 was the experimental front-wheel-drive car similar to 3001 and 3002, though it may well have been converted to rear-wheel drive, which means Sheldon's records could be right. An 8C-3000 numbered 3004 exists to this day (though I'm not saying it's the same car...)
The first 8CM (monoposti) were 3005 and 3006, which had slightly offset seating; indeed, both later raced as two-seater sportscars

#10 karlcars

karlcars
  • Member

  • 655 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 27 February 2003 - 09:34

Just been writing about these cars, and was reminded that, incredibly, Harry Schell tried to qualify 3010, the ex-Etancelin car, at Indy in 1946! Not surprisingly, a report said, it "splattered its engine all over the track."

Noteworthy too as the Maser that attracted Nuvolari in 1933-34, and on which he conducted major surgery before racing with it -- and winning three times on the trot.

#11 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 77,076 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 27 February 2003 - 10:03

Pardon my ignorance... but how old was Harry then?

Was it perhaps the oldest car and the youngest driver there?

#12 Geoff E

Geoff E
  • Member

  • 1,494 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 27 February 2003 - 10:13

Harry Scell was born in June 1921.

#13 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 77,076 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 27 February 2003 - 10:20

Well at least they weren't twins...

#14 pnegyesi

pnegyesi
  • Member

  • 167 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:42

3015 was brought to Hungary in 1937. Today it is in Switzerland.

#15 Michael Müller

Michael Müller
  • Member

  • 1,181 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:51

Are you talking about the Hartmann car?
I think he bought it already in 1935 from Nelly Braillard.

#16 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:04

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Pardon my ignorance... but how old was Harry then?

Was it perhaps the oldest car and the youngest driver there?

Just spotted this, but it was not the oldest car by far... :eek:

#17 pnegyesi

pnegyesi
  • Member

  • 167 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:15

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Are you talking about the Hartmann car?
I think he bought it already in 1935 from Nelly Braillard.


I am not talking about the Hartmann car. I am talking about the Festetich car.

I wrote a few things in the Hartmann topic recently :)

#18 Peter Leversedge

Peter Leversedge
  • Member

  • 616 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:12

The Fred Zambacka Car [3020?] was raced in New Zealand during the ' 50s and early ' 60s also by Tom Clark and Frank Shuter snr and maybe Pat Hoare. As I remember it it was painted black and had a chrome radiator shell. I understand Pat Hoare sold it overseas and had taken it as a trade in when he sold his first Ferrari to Frank Shuter. As his second Ferrari had not arrived he drove at Renwick

#19 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:57

That's pretty much it, Peter, except that at some point during Shuter's ownership it was (judging from b&w photos) white, before returning to black. I think Shuter was still the owner when Pat Hoare raced the car at Renwick in November 1960: certainly the new owner in the US was the same collector who acquired Shuter's 8CLT Maserati.

The 8CM is to be seen occasionally in European historic races these days, now painted red (which I guess is understandable) but regrettably with a painted radiator surround - just like every other 8CM - rather than the chrome surround which I understand had been on it right from the days of first owner Villapadierna

Advertisement

#20 coco

coco
  • Member

  • 166 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 05 March 2009 - 11:18

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Are you talking about the Hartmann car?
I think he bought it already in 1935 from Nelly Braillard.

THe car was sold to Switzerland early in 2008. Currently under restoration.

Ciao!
Walter

#21 Dutchy

Dutchy
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 05 March 2009 - 11:46

Are we sure the chassis of 3006, the Zehender car was used for 3020? The reason I ask is the list does not include the 2 seater which was raced by Sean Danaher and later Chris Drake and more recently hillclimbed by Will Stone. I had always believed this car to be 3006.

#22 Peter Leversedge

Peter Leversedge
  • Member

  • 616 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:04

David Yes it was white at some stage during Frank's time, Black when Tom Clark had it. It is a long time ago !!

#23 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:34

Originally posted by Dutchy
Are we sure the chassis of 3006, the Zehender car was used for 3020? The reason I ask is the list does not include the 2 seater which was raced by Sean Danaher and later Chris Drake and more recently hillclimbed by Will Stone. I had always believed this car to be 3006.

We went into this a while ago
http://forums.autosp...&threadid=63983
some of the photos have disappeared but you'll get the idea :)

#24 Dutchy

Dutchy
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:49

Thankyou David.That explains everything

I hadn't seen the earlier thread as I wasn't a reader of the forum then.

#25 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 06 March 2009 - 13:14

That's why I posted the link :)

#26 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,238 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 06 March 2009 - 18:14

I produced a sizable and complicated working register on the 8CMs, I believe for 'Classic & Sportscar' some time probably in the late 80s? Jenks plus one or two others and I bounced about what we knew and recalled of the cars between us, and with reference to Geoff Goddard's collected photographs tried to make sense of them all. I'm not confident of how close we came, but if anyone has a copy it's my copyright - NOT Haymarket's - and I'm happy for it to be reproduced here. It will be somewhere on the shelves here but I haven't got time to look. Just in case it's thought I'm blowing my own trumpet, I don't guarantee that the effort would be warranted by the accuracy of the piece...just that it would have been absolutely the best I could do at the time.

DCN

#27 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 06 March 2009 - 18:25

Classic & Sports cars June 1987.

#28 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,238 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 06 March 2009 - 18:35

Coo! Don't 21 years just fly by... :rolleyes:

DCN

#29 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 07 March 2009 - 17:02

Posted Image

©Doug Nye

#30 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 07 March 2009 - 17:04

Posted Image

©Doug Nye

#31 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 07 March 2009 - 17:04

Posted Image

©Doug Nye

#32 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 07 March 2009 - 17:05

Posted Image

©Doug Nye

#33 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,238 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 07 March 2009 - 20:37

Thanks Dave. But I would point out that, observing all the niceties, my copyright extends to the text only. :cat:

DCN

#34 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 07 March 2009 - 22:39

Thanks, Doug! :up: Will make for a nice Sunday morning read during an elongated breakfast... :smoking:

#35 ERault

ERault
  • Member

  • 336 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 15 August 2010 - 12:58

The 8CM has a special place in my heart, since I bought in the early 90s an Automobiles Classiques issue featuring a nice article with magnificient photos by Michel Zumbrunn. That article, and the 8CM, was really instrumental for the teenager I was to switch its main interest from then current road cars to old racing cars.

And now, for my (first) questions :

How is it possible for Soffietti to have bought an ex-Braillard car (3009) for the last races of 1934 and the following years, most notably 1935, when Ecurie Braillard was still racing two 8CMs in 1935 ? They even raced together, see for instance Pau, Tunis or Peronne.

Either Soffietti's car was not bought from Braillard, either Ecurie Braillard bought another car in 1935 to race alongside the one they kept.

Soffietti's 8CM had a chrome radiator-cowl, as did the Braillard cars. As far as I know, only the Villapadierna cars had the same treatment. Maybe something to explore ?

Villapadierna is credited with two cars, 3019 and 3020 (both dated june 1934 in Orsini). In the whole 1934 season, I have never find two 8CMs entered by Villapadierna in one race. In 1935, we have to wait for the Comminges GP on august 4 (Villapadierna and Lehoux, I have no picture) and the Nice GP on august 18 to find two spanish Maseratis. (EDIT : see correction below : 2 Masers on june 30)

Nice is interesing since Lehoux's car can be seen in Louche's "Un siècle de grands pilotes français". The car could very well be yellow (much lighter than the red Alfas and lighter than Sommer's blue Alfa). It has no chrome radiator-cowl, but the radiator often seen on 6C-34 cars, that is with a vertical division in the middle. On the same page in Louche book, Lehoux is seen driving what seems to be the same car (at least same front treatment) at the 1935 Dieppe GP. Some sources credited Villapadierna with a 6C-34 chassis 3028 from september 1935. Could it be this car ?

To sum up, we have :
- in 1934, Villapardierna supposed to have two 8CMs but only racing one
- in 1935, Ecurie Braillard supposed to have one 8CM (the other said to be with Soffietti) but racing two and Villapardierna supposed to have two 8CMs racing one and what could be a 6C-34.

Any ideas ?

Edited by ERault, 15 August 2010 - 15:28.


#36 ERault

ERault
  • Member

  • 336 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 15 August 2010 - 15:28

I have to correct a mistake I made above : in 1935, the Penya Rhin and the Lorraine GP were both on june 30, and Villapadierna entered a Maserati in each race (himself in Spain, Lehoux at Nancy). So this in fact is the first time I found him entering two Maseratis.

#37 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 40,075 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 15 August 2010 - 16:49

Possibly of use regarding the Villapadierna car(s) - TASO Mathieson apparently entered an ex-Villapadierna 8CM in the 1939 Empire Trophy:

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=1801169

I've also seen an American press report suggesting TASO had made inquiries about racing at Indianapolis in 1939 ...

#38 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 15 August 2010 - 18:02

My understanding is that one of Villapadierna's 8CMs was a wide-bodied car complying with the 750kg regs, and the other a narrow-bodied car for hillclimbs and libre racing

I don't think Mathieson ever got around to using his car in competition, but it appeared with other owners in a handful of 1940s UK events before enjoying a successful career in New Zealand from 1954. It is now part of the Rettenmaier brothers' extensive Maserati collection in Germany

#39 ERault

ERault
  • Member

  • 336 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 15 August 2010 - 21:30

Thank you Vitesse, I had forgotten about Mathieson. Vercoe in his book on NZ racing history has Zambucka's 8CM as ex-Villapadierna/Maag/Mathieson. The car in 1954 is a narrow chassis with a chrome radiator cowl.

David, I had considered the same idea but I had doubts since I had never found a photo of a wide 8CM with Villapadierna. But now I have, so you may very well be right : in its very first race, the 1934 Penya Rhin, Grupo Vipal had a wide 8CM for Palacio. See here : http://hemeroteca.el.....acio maserati

Back to the narrow car. It was apparently still with Villapadierna for the 1935 Marne GP on july (photos of Lehoux shows a car that fits the bill), and maybe later. As Maag died on august 1934, how could he be in the chain of ownership ?

All of this however seem to indicate that Soffietti's 8CM (narrow chassis with chrome radiator cowl) could not have been one from Villapadierna, because the first one was indeed a wide chassis car and the second one was still in use with the spanish team.

Last but not least, I did some more digging. As I said, I think Villapadierna had a 6C-34 by mid-1935 which he entered for Lehoux (from photos at least Nice and Dieppe). I found some confirmation here, in a preview for the 1935 spanish GP : http://hemeroteca.el.....serati alpina

The general idea being as I understand it that since Etancelin and the V8RI were both unavailable (because of their Monza crash), Villapadierna's 6C-34 entered for Lehoux will then be entered under the Scuderia Subalpina colors. So Villapadierna indeed had a 6C-34, and according to Orsini it must be chassis 3028.


Advertisement

#40 Felix Muelas

Felix Muelas
  • Member

  • 1,207 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 16 August 2010 - 17:15

I have not given this subject (Vipal´s cars) an educated thought and whilst I do some investigation on my files, let me share some of the graphic info at hand.

Penya Rhin 34, and the two VIPAL cars (remember VI for Villapadierna and PAL for Palacios) standing on the box :
Posted Image

Monaco 1935, some images of the Villapadierna car
Posted Image

with Soffietti...
Posted Image

and then back to Penya Rhin, but in 1935...
Posted Image

#41 Felix Muelas

Felix Muelas
  • Member

  • 1,207 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 16 August 2010 - 17:21

From the documentation previously posted :

Posted Image

Villapadierna is also happy. He could not have (available) for this race the 3 litres (engine-size) that Maserati was going to deliver, as they did with Palacios. That is why he raced with the 2,400 that, although being lighter, was notably less powerful.

And being this his first Grand Prix race and having finished quite honourably, he is happy. He expects to do better next year.

#42 Felix Muelas

Felix Muelas
  • Member

  • 1,207 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 16 August 2010 - 17:25

I find this information posted here more than 10 years ago :

A first round of infos courtesy of Jose Luis Otero that has cross-checked Alberto Mallo & Monkhouse, plus the help of Javier del Arco´s "Montjuïc, 40 years of Motor Racing History at the Park Circuit" and Pablo Gimeno´s "The International Penya Rhin Grand Prix" yields as follows :

-He made his debut in 1934 at the V Gran Premio de Penya Rhin (17 june). Associated to Joaquín Palacio Power in what was called "Escudería Vipal" (obviously VI-llapadierna PAL-acio) they entered the two Maseratis 8CM that Villapadierna had bought (3019 delivered 11th june and 3020 delivered 16th june!)

Well, this is not agreed...Javier del Arco mentions that the second 8CM was not delivered on time, and that Maserati did lend Villapadierna a 4CM, the one that Taruffi has driven in Monaco (2012).

[3020 was sold by him at the end of 1934, whilst 3019 remained for much longer. According to Pablo Gimeno "In 1939 the engine was fitted to a speedcraft and the car is currently in a British citizen´s private collection]

#43 ERault

ERault
  • Member

  • 336 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 16 August 2010 - 18:38

Felix, your photos are just stunning !

Penya Rhin 1934 is now well covered, and indeed especially by TNF several years ago. For Penya Rhin 1935, thanks to your last photo, we can now state that Villapadierna raced his new 6C-34. That means Lehoux raced one of the team 8CMs the same day at Nancy. If 3020 was indeed sold at the end of 1934 as stated above, then it must have been the wide-chassis 3019.

#44 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,682 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 16 August 2010 - 18:44

SUPERB!

#45 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 8,397 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 10 May 2011 - 10:50

Seen at the Montlhéry Vintage Revival last weekend, Maserati 8CM 3015 driven by Kurt Hasler. I am advised by a well-known Maserati expert that it is in the Hungarian colour scheme of Graf Festetics von Tolna
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

#46 pnegyesi

pnegyesi
  • Member

  • 167 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 19 November 2022 - 16:56

mas-1.jpg

 

The Winter, 2023 issue of Rare & Unique Vehicles magazines features the story of #3015

You can see a little preview here:

https://ceautoclassi...erati-8cm-3015/