79 replies to this topic

[Paul Newby]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Hmm.....

Johnny Herbert - I disagree, he got 3 wins in his F1 acreer, he had a long career and I think that he basically got the results that his talent called for.

Pier-Luigi Martini - Yes he is likely one that was never fully appreciated. However since he won the F3 european championship, which "Super" John Nielsen should have won. I never really liked him...

Ukyo Katayama - No way.

What about:

Bernd Schneider or Vincenzo Sospiri - Both had all the results needed coming to F1, both were then given a car which basically ruined them in F1 for ever!!

Hmm...

I never said that Herbert was underated, just said that he wasn't as good as he could've been if he had full use of his feet - he always had difficulty braking. It is interesting that Peter Collins always rated Herbert above Hakkinen when they were both at Lotus.

P-LM, agreed. Its an interesting footnote in history that Martini came into F1 with Minardi prematurely in 85, then spent the next few years consolidating his skills in F3000 before returning a much more mature driver. If only Felippe Massa would do the same thing ....

Ukyo, well, we disagree!

As for Schneider, well he is 'the business' in DTM, and I know the Zakspeed was a dog, but he didn't make an impression. As for Sospiri, didn't Ricardo Rosset finish second to him in that F3000 championship? Enough said.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Flying Panda
Archie Scott-Brown

Archie...under rated? Surely not. Anyone who knows the smallest jot about him rates him.

[KWSN - DSM]

Sospiri was the real deal in all that he did prior F1. He had the one race with the Lola disaster. But even after that, whenever in a competive car he delivers.

I will not hold anyone performing at or better than another driver in the junior formulas. Let us not forget that Ricardo Zonta beat!!! Juan pablo Montoya to the F3000 championship. Zonta have since managed to driver himself out of F1, and Juan Pablo is on many lists as "the next great one".

Ricardo Rosset was NOT!!!! a good F1 driver, however he was a driver with results in the junior formulas, unfortunately I can compare that to Jan Magnussen, whom I had pegged as the real deal all up the time where Barichello ate him for lunch at Steart. Magnussen will NEVER find his way back to F1, neither will Rosset, and most likely Zonta neither.

I am not really big fan of Sospiri, but do think that he never received the recognition that he could have.

In general I accept that there is a HUGE difference between being a successfull race-driver, and being a successfull F1 driver. The commitment and immence talent needed to actually race one of those cars is underappreciated and underestimated by most (except me and my younger brother ). ALL!! drivers qualifying and racing in F1 are uniquely qualified drivers, even the "slow" ones.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by dretceterini
My vote would have to go to Rosier, Sommer, and Wimille

I was going to mention Wimille too. He suffers by comparison with his contemporaries purely because he was unfortunate enough to (pre-War) only drive less competitive GP cars, together with the self-imposed French boycott of GP racing. He lost possibly his best years to the war, but was arguably the best GP driver of 1947 and 1948 - most "unofficial championships" have him as winner. 1949? If only .....

[Breadmaster]

Seaman?

[rolando]

Oscar Galvez, Moises Solana, Masten Gregory, Trevor Taylor ...

[BRG]

I'm glad that a few people have proposed Sospiri - I have often thought he was one of the most overlooked drivers of recent years.

Going back a little, I would say John Watson was a LOT better than many people give him credit for and further back still, I would suggest Carlos Pace doesn't get the recognition he deserved.

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by Breadmaster
Seaman?

... doesn't belong in this thread, since he was definitely 'rated' by all.

[stuartbrs]

Melbourne Taxi drivers.....

Never in my life have I been so scared in a car, or so amazed that we made it to our destination in one piece...

[graham de looze]

Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by graham de looze
Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot

Very short career, ended by serious accident .....

[David Beard]

Originally posted by graham de looze
Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot

Excellent...
His driving abilities may have been under rated...but has a chassis designer - what was the man on?. 3 wheels and a overhanging boiler?

[BRG]

Originally posted by graham de looze
Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot

Yet another of these drivers who got to the top too soon. With a few seasons of F3000 under his belt, he could have kept that steamer on the road...

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Bernd Schneider or Vincenzo Sospiri - Both had all the results needed coming to F1, both were then given a car which basically ruined them in F1 for ever!!

Well, Schneider simply blew away the competiton in German F3 during his championship season, perhaps the step to a turbocharged Grand Prix car was too big for him. Since than, he performed extremely well in GTs and touring cars. IIRC he tested a McLaren Mercedes either in 1997 or 1998. Does anyone have pictures?

[graham de looze]

The chassis obviously did have some flaws but it did have its merits.It was a relatively stiff twin spa design with an interconnecting member to form a bulkhead at each end.These were cleverly attached making strong use of load dissipating plates and large shouldered, double opposed, smooth dome headed fasteners,applied with a heat shrink process.A derivative,no pun intended,of these same fasteners, although now using a cold heading technique were not adopted in the aircraft industry for almost another 200 years,showing how advanced this car was.These sub assemblies at each corner were designed to prevent delamination at these stress points, of a highly complex composite material comprising of an air dry resin, bonding unidirectional grain patterned polycarbon based filaments.This material was extensively used throughout this chassis and some sports GT racers of the 1960,s. Apparently found in any forest.I've looked for it myself, but cant find the wood for the trees.
Unfortunately this master creation,way ahead of its time, was crashed during testing at the first corner.I know its easy to criticize with the benefit of hindsight but the car obviously suffered from terminal understeer.The reasons of which are either that the car was front wheel drive and the wrong choice of narrow tyre was over loaded because the compound of the steel belted radial tyres was too hard due to them actually being a tyre made from a radial belt of steel. combined with a technically confusing problem resulting in an indecision of which way to camber such a single front wheel.A second reason could be that in a search for lightness the weight of the spoked rear wheels was not enough to counter balance the forward over slung power unit resulting in weight distribution of approximately 95/5 again asking too much from the front end of the chassis.Its my opinion that this was an inherent design fault in the chassis dynamics and this could not be cured by dialling in its lack of suspension through rigorous testing in a month of Sundays.
Or it could have been, and this is probably the clincher and that no amount of engine braking would compensate for, there were no brakes.
As all is fair in racing and that he possibly invented the first car there wouldn't be any other contenders anyway and probably completed enough distance to be declared the winner anyway.

[Joe Fan]

Without a doubt in my mind, Masten Gregory.

Other drivers who didn't get as much credit/ink as their talent warranted are (in no particular order) :

Mike Hawthorn (F1)
David Pearson (NASCAR)
Tommy Hinnerschitz (Sprint cars)
Archie Scott Brown (Sports cars)
Tony Brooks (F1)
Richie Ginther (F1/Sports cars)
Walt Hansgen (Sports cars)
Louis Chiron (Grand Prix racing)
Ken Miles (Sports cars)
John Surtees (F1/Sports cars)
Chris Amon (F1)

[ensign14]

Just reading 'The Miller Dynsaty'...how about Lou Meyer? No-one seems to remember him, but he was a 3 time Indy 500 winner and was involved with the engine that won about a million billion times.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


Seconded for this thread.

Rumour has it he was difficult to get along with and shot himself in the foot a few times as to drives, I would like to hear from someone who knows though.

As someone who has finished writing Masten Gregory's biography, if he was difficult to get along with, this is the first I have heard about it. I can tell you that Masten was well-liked by many drivers and mechanics. He was very independent, brutally honest and at times outspoken but I have never heard that he was difficult to get along with.

P.S. I am going the self-publishing route for the Masten biography and I am gearing up to have the book on the market sometime between December 1st 2003 to the middle of February 2004.

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Joe Fan
Without a doubt in my mind, Masten Gregory.

Other drivers who didn't get as much credit/ink as their talent warranted are (in no particular order) :

Mike Hawthorn (F1)
David Pearson (NASCAR)
Tommy Hinnerschitz (Sprint cars)
Archie Scott Brown (Sports cars)
Tony Brooks (F1)
Richie Ginther (F1/Sports cars)
Walt Hansgen (Sports cars)
Louis Chiron (Grand Prix racing)
Ken Miles (Sports cars)
John Surtees (F1/Sports cars)
Chris Amon (F1)

Brooks, definately. He could easily have won the 1959 title, but mechanical problems and sheer bad luck prevented him to do so. Is there a book written about Tony?

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by Geza Sury

Brooks, definately. He could easily have won the 1959 title, but mechanical problems and sheer bad luck prevented him to do so. Is there a book written about Tony?

Not that I know of. I had contacted Tony several years ago because I had heard a rumor that he was once interested in writing a biography on Masten. However, he told me that this was not true and the reason why he hasn't written his own biography was he felt he had a poor memory or something along that line.

[Bladrian]

@ graham de looze:

Brilliant!

[dmj]

Originally posted by Bladrian
@ graham de looze:

Brilliant!

I can only second that. Great insight into too short career of undoubtely the very best driver of 18th century...

[Ray Bell]

Nice of you to include FJ, Joe...

For a World Champion with such a long career, you're right, he deserved more 'ink'... Hawthorn, by comparison, retired on winning his title, so there was little more to write. Except his obituary, of course, which in itself created a bit of ink.

What about Trevor Taylor, though?

[fines]

Originally posted by Bladrian
@ graham de looze:

Brilliant!

Oh dear! I managed to overlook this post at first, thinking: wrong thread?

But on seeing Bladrian's comment (and taking a second look!), I can only second that!


__________________
Michael Ferner

Mr. Bush and cohorts have done a lot of damage to the relationship with their European friends and allies, and it will take them a lot of effort to patch that up.
Yet they haven't even stopped damaging - Does it really take that long to wake up???

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by petefenelon
I think Perry is careful in his biography not to paint himself as any more special than any of the Rat Pack - then again, that means he's implying he's as good as Hill, say, but didn't have the breaks. Then again, I always felt Hill was no better then Donnelly, for example... just luckier in many ways.

I love the way Perry paints a poor picture of Marco Greco.
Perhaps he was jealous that Greco went on to have more open-wheel success than he did?

[Gert]

Probably not the MOST underrated ever, but underrated nevertheless:

Martin Brundle

Look at the scores in 1992 (divided in 2 parts of 8 races)

Mansell: 66 + 42 = 108
Patrese: 34 + 22 = 56
Schumacher: 26 + 27 = 53
Senna: 18 + 32 = 50
Berger: 18 + 31 = 49
Brundle: 9 + 29 = 38

In the second half of 1992 he was as good as anyone else (bar Mansell)

Now if only ...


IMO he deserved much better than Tyrell-Zakspeed-Brabham-Ligier (or McLaren when they were nowhere)

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by Joe Fan
Re; Masten Gregory

He was very independent, brutally honest and at times outspoken but I have never heard that he was difficult to get along with.

P.S. I am going the self-publishing route for the Masten biography and I am gearing up to have the book on the market sometime between December 1st 2003 to the middle of February 2004.

You are right, this is what I actually heard.

I heard also that he told Jackie Oliver flat what he thought of his car which led to their instant parting and that on a number of occasions where prima donna's would complian that a car wasnt up to scratch he would jump in and go faster and come back and mention it wasnt the car that was the problem.....

Maybe you could also enlighten me on these, rumours or truemours ?

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


You are right, this is what I actually heard.

I heard also that he told Jackie Oliver flat what he thought of his car which led to their instant parting and that on a number of occasions where prima donna's would complian that a car wasnt up to scratch he would jump in and go faster and come back and mention it wasnt the car that was the problem.....

Maybe you could also enlighten me on these, rumours or truemours ?

I don't know anything about the Jackie Oliver incident because I have no info that he ever co-drove with or for Jackie. However, Masten would drive some real crap cars.

At Sebring in 1961, Masten and Lucky Casner were to share a T61 Maserati while Stirling Moss and Graham Hill were paired up in a new T63 Maser for the Camoradi team. Moss complained that the T63 was too unbalanced so Lucky gave Stirling and Graham the T61 and he and Masten took the T63. Masten got the first stint in the "unbalanced " T63 and he jumped out into the lead at the start of the race. Masten had a three second lead at the end of the first lap and led two more laps until he was passed by the Ferrari driven by Pedro Rodriguez on lap 4. Unfortunately, both cars retired fairly early on in the race.

[Haddock]

Its all a bit subjective, because it depends not only on your opinion of a driver, but also how you personally perceive others to rate that driver. Certain drivers, such as, for instance, Damon Hill really seem to polarise opinions. Such that some under-rate him and some over-rate him.

There are several different categories here really - there are those who never made a mark on the sport but who one privately suspects might have done had they been given the opportunity - for instance, I was always disappointed that Gabriele Tarquini never got a run in any worthwhile F1 machinery, but I'll never know whether he was really worthy of it or not.

Then there are those who achieved great success but, for whatever reason, simply aren't particularly highly regarded - usually because, great as they were, they were not quite as brilliant as some others who happened to be around at the time. Two triple world champions spring to mind here - Piquet and Lauda, whom I suspect have always been slightly forgotten simply because they weren't quite as talented as the next two on the block, Senna and Prost.

Then, finally, there are those who showed flashes of brilliance but never seemed to be able to keep it together (this kind of links in with the one-hit-wonders thread.) For instance, if De Cesaris could be occasionally so fast, as he was at Spa from time to time, could he have gone on to be a real great had he had the right mental attitude ? And what of Alesi ? Had he been a bit more of a thinking driver, would his natural car control allowed him to frighten Schumacher in the mid-nineties ?

[William Hunt]

It would have been a better question if it for example was : 'Who is the most underrated driver who never won a race ?"

After all, some people underrate a driver who other overrate ...

And can a driver who wins in F1 be that much underrated ? Maybe a liitle, but not that much.