29 replies to this topic

[chrisj]

In another thread regarding the new Williams, several people mentioned that they could be "sandbagging". I just wanted to know, do teams actually still do this? I understand that you may not want to show your "latest and greatest" front wing creation or something to the competition. But why on earth would someone purposefully go slower than they could for mind games sake? It makes no sense to me in this day and age. Testing time is too expensive to f*** around with something like that. Am I missing something?

[BMW FW22]

With sandbagging you could think of testing with a lot of fuel load

[VresiBerba]

Yeah by running heavy fuel loads, Williams' perhaps is simulating race trim. Williams had severe problems with a good race pace last year and so by testing every aspect of that rather than qual laps, kind of makes sense. Last year Williams didn't exactly had any problems finding speed on Saturdays.

[MrSlow]

Looking at full laptimes of a test day is quite interesting.
Today for example, Rubens was faster than MS, but on the other hand Rubens drove mostly 6-laps each outing while Michael did 11. But that itself does not mean anything. If they test something that does not need maximum power, they propably tune the engine so it last longer. Sometimes they have sensors on the car that can seriously alter the aerodynamics and that will of course be reflected in laptimes.

But on the other hand, I guess there is some hide and seek games going on also, if they test some new aero parts that they feel is very good, maybe they don't wanna show it by breaking the lap record right away. And sometimes they do

[Ghostrider]

One important thing when testing new cars is testing reliability. Since the stress on the car is greater with heavy fuelloads, I guess they pump them full and run around and see if the car holds up. Maybe that is the stage Williams is in at the moment, hence their relative slow times.

[Darrenj]

originally posted by BMW FW22
With sandbagging you could think of testing with a lot of fuel load

Is sand bagging any thing like tea bagging???

[Paste]

Originally posted by Darrenj


Is sand bagging any thing like tea bagging???

Ralf Schumacher sure hopes so!!!

[stenney]

It's too early to consider sandbagging. They are taking their time. This car will be enough different that they will need to work their way into it. And Williams does tend to move slowly with this and run with a lot of fuel.

[AlesiUK]

sandbagging is most effective when conducting a private test,when the teams release the times achieved to the press,well they may not bare any resembleance to the actual times achieved....

[masterhit]

Williams have a history, generally, of testing with race levels of fuel. The major exception being when Mansell was there, for he loved to set a really fast time for various reasons. I remeber reading once that Mansell loved to do that and it really fired up the mechanics and made good press, but I got the overall impression that normally Williams prefer to test with race levels of fuel.

Also, we can't write off Williams just yet. A new car can gain up to four seconds a lap as the team get to know its set up and make the necessary tweaks.

[nicholasc]

they may also "sandbag" the overall lap time while testing true speed on one of the sectors within that lap - much the same was as MS sets up for the weekend.

Do all teams at the circuit have access to sector times of all cars?

[DEVO]

You can sandbag a certain time sector and not the others where you are concentrating on development.... overall time will show that you are off pace but who car's because your team really knows.

If you lift prior to the start/finish line you can add time to the overall time... just to throw everybody off. That is sandbagging but at the same time, it's not preventing your team from finding out useful data.

[DEVO]

sorry, what nicholasc said

[KenC]

Actually, sandbagging can get more complicated as teams set up their own timing stands along the pitwall. This allows teams to put their timing stands at one end of pitlane or the other. You can imagine the timing disparities as drivers lift after passing their timing stand, and still before passing another team's timing stand. This is often why a team will report vastly different testing times than other sources. Not all sources get their times from the same set of timing lights.

[Mrv]

Why is it that ever year people say that Williams are sandbagging in testing

[Reversa]

Originally posted by Mrv
Why is it that ever year people say that Williams are sandbagging in testing

well... the same reason why people take aspirine.

[logic]

Pretty funny
Just remember free practices from ladt year. IIRC Williams was often very low positions.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Mrv
Why is it that ever year people say that Williams are sandbagging in testing

Because Williams won't fool us again. Just like during past 2 seasons they were nowhere in practise and then in qualifying : bang, front row

You can read the test times and believe Williams is behind Jaguar if you wish

[Inness]

Originally posted by Mrv
Why is it that ever year people say that Williams are sandbagging in testing

I guess it depends on what you define as sandbagging. To think that the current times Williams is showing are close to their best is foolhardy. Hint: Gene was easily faster than JPM today. Do I think they will be on par with Ferrari- NOPE. I also think the reliability Gremlins are going to bite the Prancing Horse square in the ass this year ;)

[Crazy Canuck]

Originally posted by BMW FW22
With sandbagging you could think of testing with a lot of fuel load

Or by running really light - IIRC Sauber are notorious for this.

CC

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Crazy Canuck
Or by running really light - IIRC Sauber are notorious for this.

CC

Really? I don't think so. Difference between a qual lap and fastest race lap is over 4 seconds. I cannot see Sauber going constantly in the faster end of this marigin .......

[Mrv]

Originally posted by maclaren

Because Williams won't fool us again. Just like during past 2 seasons they were nowhere in practise and then in qualifying : bang, front row

You can read the test times and believe Williams is behind Jaguar if you wish

No, I don't care about test times, but there is a bit of concern in the Williams camp. All is not all up to snuff with their new car and they better get it rectified real quick or they will find themselves behind not only Mclaren, but possibily Toyota. I think that Toyota will be the most improved team on the grid and may surpass Renault.

[Williams]

Ah yes, the annual sandbagging thread.

Three of the sandbagging threads in Feb of last year were about Williams.

Williams have never worried about winning the "winter championship". (Fingers crossed).

[amiga1]

Ferrari continue sandbagging so bewere ;)

Today's times:


Pos Driver Team-Engine Tyres Time Laps
1. M.Schumacher Ferrari (B) 1:15.465 85
2. Barrichello Ferrari (B) 1:15.762 65
3. Panis Toyota (M) 1:17.390 54
4. Heidfeld Sauber-Petronas (B) 1:17.480 96
5. Trulli Renault (M) 1:17.560 53
6. Gene Williams-BMW (M) 1:17.678 86
7. Pizzonia Jaguar-Cosworth (M) 1:18.063 40
8. McNish Renault (M) 1:18.445 50
9. Button BAR-Honda (B) 1:18.506 42
10. Montoya Williams-BMW (M) 1:18.903 43
11. Villeneuve BAR-Honda (B) 1:19.001 38

All Timing Unofficial

[wawawa]

Originally posted by Williams
Ah yes, the annual sandbagging thread.

[LuckyStrike1]

Originally posted by Williams
Ah yes, the annual sandbagging thread.

Not more?;)

Williams don't have to practice qulifying runs, they have Mr Qualifying in the car already. Better to focus on race trim, their achilles heal last season.

It's a fact of the testing season - teams run different programs and settings throughout the season so making comparisons is pretty difficult.

When the season starts we will se Ferrari being far away and Williams and McLaren the closest behind. I think the biggest change in the top will be that McLaren have closed the gap to Williams and seems to be ahead at the moment.

[siggers]

Originally posted by Williams
Ah yes, the annual sandbagging thread.

Ahh, yes.

But are the normal limitations on reading of tea leaves via testing times not sort of squared this year? With the new qualifying format and the restrictions on changes to the car after saturday qualifying the parameters for qualifying and racing must have changed, or not? Surely the teams will not just run qualifying in race setup? Specially on courses where it is very difficult to overtake. I would think that we will see compromises somewhere in between, and completely new strategic thinking. I would think that on the whole qualifying times will have to be much higher, but there may be lower lap times during the races with more pitstops. Or am I completely off track here?

So, what might have been a really good race time last year might be a bad qualifying time this year - exaggerating here, but just to illustrate my point. How anybody under these conditions will be able to interpret test times I don't know.

Another point in this connection: will this rule change not systematically favour Ferrari and McLaren for the first races over Williams? They start a new and complex strategy game with a known car with known strengths and weaknesses and known reactions to setup changes, while Willliams have to come to terms with a new car and a new format at the same time?

And by the way, there still seems considerable lack of clarity on exactly what kind of work will be permitted on the cars after qualifying. Any more information on that?

[Sith]

"sandbagging" is when you have something that is far superior, and you don't want to show your hand! Like the last 2 Ferrari's, or the Mclarens before that!

Where's the common sense in "sandbagging" when you're trying your damness to find out all you can about your cars "inovative" changes from the previous year in order to overhaul what is the current benchmark by a long way!!!!

[Scoop]

Originally posted by Sith
"sandbagging" is when you have something that is far superior, and you don't want to show your hand! Like the last 2 Ferrari's, or the Mclarens before that!

Where's the common sense in "sandbagging" when you're trying your damness to find out all you can about your cars "inovative" changes from the previous year in order to overhaul what is the current benchmark by a long way!!!!

maybe you don't want to show how bad it really is

[dfernandd]

Well at least this morning it was 1.6 seconds slower. The question is. Is that the fastest this car goes? I hope I can see JPM doing 1.15...... times. That will show that the car is really fast.