28 replies to this topic

[BS Levy]

Art Eastman and I are working on an art show of classic fifties and early sixties racing cars (Ferrari Mondial, Jag D-Type, Porsche RSK, Cunningham C-2, etc.) that will appear at the Snite Museum of Art on the University of Notre Dame campus during the summer of 2004, and the central theme will be the diversity and essence of recognizable national "styles" in the cars of that era (sadly gone today). But I could use a little help from some of the forum members regarding the apparent change of the German racing color from white to silver. When and how did this come about? Can anyone help???

[550spyder]

I'm not sure but I think they have to take off the paint of the cars to get them at the maximum weight. maybe in the early thirties when there was a maximum weight formula.

[Vitesse2]

This thread is a good jumping-off point, especially regarding the "heavy paint" story

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=10224

[uechtel]

AFAIK there was never an official "change" of the colour. White remained the official colour, but I have read somewhere, that the argument was, that silver is the heraldic equivalent to white (just like yellow to gold), so it was also accepted.

So for quite a while there were white and silver cars simultaneously on the grids. BMW switched to silver as late as 1940, while many privateers continued racing their white cars after the war. Only after some time it seems, that silver became more and more the favourite colour, perhaps because of its connection to Mercedes and Auto Union, or simply perhaps plain white is so boring...

[Michael Müller]

And this one

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=35024

[LB]

opening a can of worms here - Scotland had its own colour as seen on the Ecurie Ecosse Jags. Did Scottish drivers get to pick and choose between blue or green ?

[Frank S]

LB:

opening a can of worms here - Scotland had its own colour as seen on the Ecurie Ecosse Jags. Did Scottish drivers get to pick and choose between blue or green ?

And I'd like to know why Ecurie Ecosse. Do the Scots not have equivalent words?

Frank S

[LB]

Originally posted by Frank S
LB:


And I'd like to know why Ecurie Ecosse. Do the Scots not have equivalent words?

Frank S

yup I just means Team Scotland - little explaination here

http://members.roger.../jja121602a.htm

[Alan Lewis]

Originally posted by uechtel
AFAIK there was never an official "change" of the colour.

Appendix I of the 1975 FIA "Yellow Book" (don't ask, I don't know why I've got it either) states that the "Distinctive national colours assigned to vehicles taking part in International competitions" for Germany are "Silver-grey with red numbers".

So, it appears that sometime before the mid-seventies, the colour was "officially" changed, though it's quite possible that "official" means someone at the FIA typed the wrong colour in when writing the book one year.

APL

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Alan Lewis


Appendix I of the 1975 FIA "Yellow Book" (don't ask, I don't know why I've got it either) states that the "Distinctive national colours assigned to vehicles taking part in International competitions" for Germany are "Silver-grey with red numbers".

So, it appears that sometime before the mid-seventies, the colour was "officially" changed, though it's quite possible that "official" means someone at the FIA typed the wrong colour in when writing the book one year.

APL

Alan that is VERY interesting. If in 1975 the German colour combination was silver with red numbers, which btw was used by AU in 1938 (here I have some of the first coloured pictures to proof that), there must have been an official change. But when? Before or after the WW2?

May somebody could help us with some material of Porsche or Borgward post war cars. They were silver, but which colour did they use for the numbers?

[Wolf]

LB- I think it was up to the entrant. So, if English (oops, I nearly made a mistake here and wrote British) driver drove for Scottish team/entrant, his car would be blue; as was case with Moss when driving Walker's cars. I think Ireland would've been fired on the spot (in equally dubious manner) if he even suggested his Lotus to be painted in Royal Scottish blue (am I correct in the name?).

Slightly OT, but I once had moped (as old as I was, sold it few years back when he gor over 25 ) that was dark blue, and permit had the colour down as Bahama Orange! Maybe that's also the name for Scottish racing colours.

[Alan Lewis]

What we need is someone with older FIA "Yellow Books". I can't believe that one of us out there hasn't got the full set! When did they start doing them?

APL

[mp4]

White was the official colour of Germany. It's true, Mercedes stripped the paint off their cars in the '30's to get them down to the proper weight. Hence the birth of the Silver Arrows...
Porsche still prefers to debut all their race cars in white. It usually changes, when the sponsors say their bit about things...

Cheers

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Alan Lewis
What we need is someone with older FIA "Yellow Books". I can't believe that one of us out there hasn't got the full set! When did they start doing them?

APL

The Yellow Book started sometime in the 60s IIRC. I have 1972 & 1975 - we ascertained that a few other years are around in the course of this thread on graded drivers:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=34283

Originally posted by mp4
White was the official colour of Germany. It's true, Mercedes stripped the paint off their cars in the '30's to get them down to the proper weight. Hence the birth of the Silver Arrows...

With respect, can I suggest you read the threads pointed to by Michael Müller and myself? You might be surprised ....

[uechtel]

In East German yearbook "Motorsport Almanach" 1953 there is a list of the official colour system of all countries. According to that official German colour scheme is still white with red numbers.

[Tweddell]

The story of cleaning the new mercedes racers from the paint is right (it happened before WW II at the Ring), before that event the cars were always white.
After that , there was a period of silver colour for German racers.
It is not right, that all Porsches had their first out in white, in the fifties Porsche-works-racers were silver, even in 1964 all works-Carrera 904 were silver painted (allthogh they now had glassfibre- instead of aluminium bodies as their forerunners), but with the 906, 910, 908 and the first 917 Porsche went back to white colour for their works-cars. After 1968 colours were mostly team-Colours, in the seventies paint was according to sponsor colours(what a pity!!!).
White with sometimes blue stripes was mostly seen at cars from USA, remember Cunningham racers, Camoradi cars , GT 40 MK I, Chaparral etc. The opposite of (metallic-)dark-blue and white stripes were also at USA racers like all Shelby cars , Scarab etc.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Tweddell

The story of cleaning the new mercedes racers from the paint is right (it happened before WW II at the Ring), before that event the cars were always white.

At the risk of repeating myself

Originally posted by Vitesse2
With respect, can I suggest you read the threads pointed to by Michael Müller and myself? You might be surprised ....

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Alan Lewis
What we need is someone with older FIA "Yellow Books". ...When did they start doing them?APL

1968 - conceived by German publisher/writer/entrepreneur named Eddie Guba. He took the idea to British publisher Patrick Stephens Ltd and PSL kicked it off with the FIA.

DCN

[Michael Müller]

Richard, thank you!

[Alan Lewis]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


The Yellow Book started sometime in the 60s IIRC. I have 1972 & 1975...

In that case...what does your 1972 book say on the matter?

APL

[Alan Lewis]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


1968 - conceived by German publisher/writer/entrepreneur named Eddie Guba. He took the idea to British publisher Patrick Stephens Ltd and PSL kicked it off with the FIA.

DCN

Thanks Doug, I guess we can't go much further forward...er, back...with that line of enquiry then. Though, from what Uechtel says, it hadn't yet changed in 1953 so we can get it within fifteen years or so maybe.

I do still wonder how much weight the 1975 Appendix I actually carried though - did it really matter if the FIA had just plain got it wrong for a few years? How many people still used national colours then? Would anyone have noticed?

APL

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


1968 - conceived by German publisher/writer/entrepreneur named Eddie Guba. He took the idea to British publisher Patrick Stephens Ltd and PSL kicked it off with the FIA.

DCN

Please help me out Germans. Who the hell is Eddie Guba' In 1968 I got my first Porsche (1: 18), perhaps it was a year or two later. Any idea. Thanks Doug.

[mp4]

I may stand corrected on things and that's fine.
I was thinking about the debut of the 917, 956 and a crap load of customer 911 derived race cars.
Silver IS more interesting than white, truth to tell... :

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by mp4
I may stand corrected on things and that's fine.
I was thinking about the debut of the 917, 956 and a crap load of customer 911 derived race cars.
Silver IS more interesting than white, truth to tell... :

Yes nowadays it's more interesting, and after the victories of the silver arrows, but why they were silver, and since when?

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Alan Lewis


Appendix I of the 1975 FIA "Yellow Book" (don't ask, I don't know why I've got it either) states that the "Distinctive national colours assigned to vehicles taking part in International competitions" for Germany are "Silver-grey with red numbers".

So, it appears that sometime before the mid-seventies, the colour was "officially" changed, though it's quite possible that "official" means someone at the FIA typed the wrong colour in when writing the book one year.

APL

And what about the british teams? Lotus changed after the 1968 season from british racing green to sponsor coulours. In 1969 the Lotus were painted red.

Perhaps painting the cars in national colours was more or less by the teams?

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by uechtel
AFAIK there was never an official "change" of the colour. White remained the official colour, but I have read somewhere, that the argument was, that silver is the heraldic equivalent to white (just like yellow to gold), so it was also accepted.

I just read a 1930s article about heraldic colors. The rule seems to be that on shields or other metal surfaces white should be replaced by silver.

[Brun]

Are there any Dutch racing colors, BTW?

Might be important, as my trusty old Coupé will be up for a new paintjob in the next years. Should I keep it silver-blue or...

[dmj]

Isn't orange Dutch racing colour???

[Holger Merten]

No, not everything in the netherlands is orange.
But have a look at this thread, there you'll find it (post 13).