37 replies to this topic

[troyf1]

Having been reading Don Capps fantastic series of pieces on the FISA/FOCA war it got me to thinking of Jean-Marie Balestre and his reign as FIA/FISA President. I used to think that his reign as president was good for the sport simply because he didn't fear Bernie and was willing to stand up to him. But after reading this series it seems as if Balestre was consumed with a lust for complete and total control of the sport. Any thoughts?

[David M. Kane]

He was apparently a bit of a hero with the French Undergound during WWII.
I always thought he was a bit of a pain, but that appears to go with the
territory...look at Max. BUT I must admit that lately I think Max has been doing a pretty damn good job.

I think he liked a bit of drama and maybe even went out of the way to create some. Whatever, we think of him, there was some pretty damn good
racing during his "reign"!

[marat]

The behaviour of JMB during the war is not clear.
The italian Auto Sprint published in the eighties photos of Balestre wearing an SS uniform.
Maybe he turned to the other side at the end, was injuried and had good friends who helped
him after the war.
Hids dictatorial approch has it's origins...

[ensign14]

IIRC, he sued a French magazine in 1982-3 for alleging that he was a collaborator in WW2; he was awarded 1FF in damages. He was also allegedly imprisoned after the war but released after a British officer vouched that he was a double agent; however, the papers for the trial and the British officer were never traced...

Could not STAND him. One year at the British GP Nicola Larini was starting after everyone else in the Osella, and at full chat came across a certain portly FIA official illegally crossing the track. Autosport or Autocourse vel sim wrote that Larini's reputation amongst the British teams divebombed when he managed to miss him...

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
He was apparently a bit of a hero with the French Undergound during WWII.

I do not think this was in fact the case....

[David M. Kane]

I only repeating what I read in a British racing magazine. What are the facts, as looking for them in America would be a waste of all of our time?
Like I said, I never liked the guy, BUT the racing was good. Since he was
replaced by Bernie's puppet, the racing has definitely headed south...

[Ray Bell]

Alan Jones still talks about him at every opportunity...

Hates him with a vengeance.

[eldougo]

He was the most unliked person in F1 in the 70,s . He would stroll around an upset people
any team except for LIGIER , He was very rude, talk in french an expected an answer from
english speaking team members.I remember one day he got into abig argument at team
lotus with peter weir&the essex man david t------. outside ther motor home.Most drivers would
avoid him like the plauge.He made Bernie E---------stone & Max look like gentleman. :

[Ray Bell]

How did Ron get on with him?

[eldougo]

I don,t know the answer to that but i would expect it was the same as most FORMULA FORD
Team in F1 he was treated with contempt because they had no other option.

[fines]

It was quite easy to dislike him, because of his, erm... personality, but I always felt he did a super job on administering the sport. That is saying, he still regarded it as a sport when most of the (English) team principals were trying to make it a sound business. Truth to be told, the teams weren't wrong because that was a time when the costs of the sport really escalated and there were no (well, almost no) manufacturers invovlved. When he was ousted, things very much went out of control...

The bottom line is perhaps, he was just a little bit behind the times... and those who were fighting him were pushing things a bit too far.


__________________
Take a look at the lawman
Beating up the wrong guy
Oh man, wonder if he'll ever know
He's in the best-selling show!
Is there life on Mars?

[holiday]

Very contrary to public belief was Jean Marie Balestre the best thing ever happening to Ayrton Senna:

He reintroduced the dropped score rule which won Senna the 1988 title
He gave Senna a welcomed and often used pretense for losing the 1989 Championship against Alain Prost by what was an overoptimistic manouvre
He didn't annual Sennas 1990 Championship contrary to what Max Mosley would have done by his own account publicly given a year ago

[Don Capps]

Having gone back and revisited the whole FIASCO Mess, JM Balestre managed to often undermine his case through a simple lack of a pleasant public persona. Look at where Mosley and Ecclestone have taken F1 and then think about what Balestre proposed...

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by holiday

losing the 1989 Championship against Alain Prost by what was an overoptimistic manouvre

I think the difference between me and others who beleive this is that I have seen the in-car with Prost as he turns right many meters before the chicane straight into Senna.

Now I'm not interested in a "who hit who" crappy debate that always gets out of control, I bring it up because what I want to know is how come this damning in-car footage "dissapeared" imediately and if Balestre had influence with TV on its dissapearance.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by holiday
Very contrary to public belief was Jean Marie Balestre the best thing ever happening to Ayrton Senna:

He reintroduced the dropped score rule which won Senna the 1988 title
He gave Senna a welcomed and often used pretense for losing the 1989 Championship against Alain Prost by what was an overoptimistic manouvre
He didn't annual Sennas 1990 Championship contrary to what Max Mosley would have done by his own account publicly given a year ago

True. Balestre - the man who inadvertently fueled Senna myth.
However, the dropped score rule was present from pre-Balestre era and never dropped before 1991. It was only modified several times.
Balestre dropped two-part championship in 1981 and introduced best 11 out of 15 or 16 races score.
But the 1990 championship remains the big mistake...


Hrvoje

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by holiday
Very contrary to public belief was Jean Marie Balestre the best thing ever happening to Ayrton Senna:
He gave Senna a welcomed and often used pretense for losing the 1989 Championship against Alain Prost by what was an overoptimistic manouvre

Well, Ayrton DID WIN that race but, as I understand it, on his way up to the podium he was attacked by Balestre who took a grip on Ayrton and pulled him back down the steps while shouting "We'll disqualify you! We'll find some rule!" And Ayrton was disqualified for a rule that hasn't ever been used before or since. I really fail see what good that made to Ayrton.

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


I think the difference between me and others who beleive this is that I have seen the in-car with Prost as he turns right many meters before the chicane straight into Senna.

Now I'm not interested in a "who hit who" crappy debate that always gets out of control, I bring it up because what I want to know is how come this damning in-car footage "dissapeared" imediately and if Balestre had influence with TV on its dissapearance.

Are you sure it was an in-car footage? There was a helicopter camera that clearly showed the incident. Mclaren wanted that footage to be shown but as I understand it it was suppressed by FIA (?) for at least some time. It myself saw it for the first time in 1994 or 95.

[Mark Beckman]

Exactly Leif, where is it ?

Yes it was in-car, Channel 9 Australia veiwed the race and after they tangled they first showed incar of Prost then of Senna.

Then they went to an advert and came back and repeatedly showed Senna's in-car but not Prosts and then the "get rid of Senna" crap came for the next few weeks and they continued to show Senna's in-car which made him look suspiciously like the culprit and I was frustrated because they wouldnt show Prost's in-car.

Regardless anyway, the answer also lay in the fact that they suppressed the damning helicopter veiw which I have also seen since, was this Balestres handy work to create a French World Champion ?

I know what I think.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman
And Ayrton was disqualified for a rule that hasn't ever been used before or since.

As was the case then and even now, push starts on track are illegal and grounds for DQ

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Since he was replaced by Bernie's puppet, the racing has definitely headed south...

But thats like saying the sun has come up causing the stock market to go down. The F1 rules didnt drastically change Balestre>Mosley until the grooved tires incident, and even that hasnt had a real affect one way or the other. Nor has the ban or legality of TC and electronics interestingly

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


As was the case then and even now, push starts on track are illegal and grounds for DQ

can't you get a pushstart when the car is in a dangerous position on the track?

[Jacaré]

the 2001 F1 sporting regulation 152 says "If the driver is unable to drive the car from a dangerous position, it shall be the duty of the marshalls to assist him. If any such assistance results in the engine starting and the driver rejoining the race, the car will be excluded from the results of the race". Was this rule in effect back in 1990 when Senna was restarted?

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Jacaré
the 2001 F1 sporting regulation 152 says "If the driver is unable to drive the car from a dangerous position, it shall be the duty of the marshalls to assist him. If any such assistance results in the engine starting and the driver rejoining the race, the car will be excluded from the results of the race". Was this rule in effect back in 1990 when Senna was restarted?

It's a very interesting question because the opposite claim is very often seen in this BB. But what is the truth?
I have always found silly that Senna was disqualified for cutting a chicane - many drivers do it more than once in almost every race yet we don't see any disqualifications because of that. But disqualifying because of push-start could be much more logical reason. If the aforementioned rule was in place in 1990.

Hrvoje

[David M. Kane]

So what was his war record? Was he hero or villian? JFK, it turns out, almost got a court martial for his mis-handling of the PT-109 incident but his father was able to manipulate the story so that he almost got a Navy
award of significance, BUT the Navy refused to have its arm twisted and he
got a lesser award for saving the life of one his crewmen.

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by Jacaré
the 2001 F1 sporting regulation 152 says "If the driver is unable to drive the car from a dangerous position, it shall be the duty of the marshalls to assist him. If any such assistance results in the engine starting and the driver rejoining the race, the car will be excluded from the results of the race". Was this rule in effect back in 1990 when Senna was restarted?

Patrese won the Monaco GP after being pushed from a dangerous position, might help in Balestre's eyes if you happen to be resident of a "Frenchish" country.

Cynically speaking of course.

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
As was the case then and even now, push starts on track are illegal and grounds for DQ

No, Senna wasn't disqualifed for the push start! He was disqualified for using the escape road, bypassing the chicane. ( I guess that escape road in fact was longer than the chicane itself) And Senna explained the reason was that he thought it would be dangerous to do a 180 degree turn and rejoin the track against the traffic.

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Leif Snellman


Are you sure it was an in-car footage? There was a helicopter camera that clearly showed the incident.

I had a short clip that shows the incident from the 2 angles. First from the helicopter and next from the camera located onboard Prost's Mc Laren.

Arturo

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


Patrese won the Monaco GP after being pushed from a dangerous position

I don't know if this is OK since I don't have access to sporting regulations from that season. I'd guess the rule was changed?

[Simioni]

Originally posted by holiday
Very contrary to public belief was Jean Marie Balestre the best thing ever happening to Ayrton Senna:

He reintroduced the dropped score rule which won Senna the 1988 title
He gave Senna a welcomed and often used pretense for losing the 1989 Championship against Alain Prost by what was an overoptimistic manouvre
He didn't annual Sennas 1990 Championship contrary to what Max Mosley would have done by his own account publicly given a year ago

Are you aware of Ballestre admitting some years ago to having given Prost "a little hand" in 89? Somehow it doesn't go well with your theory.

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira


I had a short clip that shows the incident from the 2 angles. First from the helicopter and next from the camera located onboard Prost's Mc Laren.

Arturo

"Had" or "Have" ???

I always wanted it myself...........??

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


"Had" or "Have" ???

I always wanted it myself...........??

Have .....

[masterhit]

Are we allowed to mention his Nazi past here?

He was by no means a hero of the French resistance, he defected to the Nazis.

Not that giving up and supporting the other side is unusual for the French, but..

[fines]

Originally posted by masterhit
Are we allowed to mention his Nazi past here?

He was by no means a hero of the French resistance, he defected to the Nazis.

Can you substantiate that? IIRC, it was proofed to be wild innuendo at the time those allegations were made!!?

[masterhit]

Originally posted by fines

Can you substantiate that? IIRC, it was proofed to be wild innuendo at the time those allegations were made!!?

Well actually I know no more than the rumours!

[Lutz G]

Here Jody Scheckter's thoughts on Jean-Marie Balestre:

"I pay Balestre 10000 $ if he shuts his mouth"

(quote from his Motorsport aktuell column in his days as Ferrari pilot)

Lutz

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by Vrba


But disqualifying because of push-start could be much more logical reason.

was his engine still running? That seems to have saved Michael Schumacher from DQ at the European Grand Prix.

[VAR1016]

I was very annoyed by MArtin Brundle's comment reagrding Schumacher's being pushed from the gravel by the marshals.

He said "he appears to have got away with it."

This was disgraceful.

What occurred was obviously entirely within the provisions of Rule 152 quoted in the post above.

Martin Brundle should apologise for his comment.

PdeRL

[masterhit]

Originally posted by holiday
Very contrary to public belief was Jean Marie Balestre the best thing ever happening to Ayrton Senna:

He reintroduced the dropped score rule which won Senna the 1988 title

Er.. to be honest I think that a driver should be adaptable enough to get the maximum out of the rules of the time. That Prost was a great however, I have no doubt whatsoever and there's nothing wrong with your reasoning, just differing opinions!

Back on topic, Max and Bernie figured out Balestre early on, I think, and as such he pretty much towed the party line behind the scenes so long as he could make grand gestures of power.

In the end, I suspect that having at first been quite a good sidetrack from the REAL political goings on, his statements became so embarrassing that Max decided to step forward himself and flex his matured diplomacy skills.

[BRG]

Originally posted by VAR1016
Martin Brundle should apologise for his comment.

I think you are reading FAR too much into Brundle's comment and getting rather carried away. IIRC, Martin read out the Regulation in question and observed (as many of us have) that it was not at all clear how it should be interpreted.

Anyway, back to the wretched JMB. Basically, my thoughts are not printable! Why is it that international (and indeed national as well) sports control bodies seem to attract such people? Football, cycling, the Olympics - they all seem to have had luminaries who were dodgy, corrupt or partial (or all three). Of course with our current incumbents Max'n'Bernie, things are arguably little better!

[BobM]

Hi,

Whether Prost turned into Senna deliberately or not is irrelevant. Senna being disqualified rightly or wrongly is also irrelevant since Senna needed to win Japan AND in Australia. If all you Senna supporters will recall, Senna DNF'ed in Australia after he slammed into the back of Brundle effectively ending his chance at the title.

Bob