16 replies to this topic

[mplach]

does anybody have any pictures of this car that they can share. im really curious as to what the team came up with before they went under. i've searched the fourms here and also have tried to find photos elsewhere but havent had any luck. any help would be greatly appreciated.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by mplach
does anybody have any pictures of this car that they can share. im really curious as to what the team came up with before they went under. i've searched the fourms here and also have tried to find photos elsewhere but havent had any luck. any help would be greatly appreciated.

As far as I'm aware there never was an AP05 - there's probably a wind-tunnel model, but that's it. Had Prost managed to get enough money to do 2002 he almost certainly would've been starting the season with uprated AP04s.

[mplach]

yes...thats actually what i was referring to. i should have been more specific. there were pictures of the windtunel model (50%) floating around on an f1 tech forum around a year ago. but the links are now long dead and google wont turn up anything useful except computer renderings of what looks like an ap04 with repsol ypf sponsorship....

[Rainer Nyberg]

Slightly OT but, has anyone ever seen any pics of the Prost aka Phoenix Racing aka DART AP04 ? It was the cars bought by Tom Walkinshaw's pal Chuck Nicholson aka Chuck Nickerson and he tried to enter them at some early GP races in 2002 with an Arrows aka Hart engine.

[roger_valentine]

has anyone ever seen any pics of the Prost aka Phoenix Racing aka DART AP04 ?

Good question, Rainer. I'm all in favour of Dart/Phoenix references in TNF - those philistines over in Readers Comments seem to regard the whole affair as rather shadey and shabby, whilst over here in TNF we rightly regard it as on of the great 'might have beens' of grand prix history. (Well, one of the ' might have beens'. I'm not sure about the 'great').

As I understand it, Phoenix actually submitted a nosecone for scrutineering, which, if true, must have been one of the funniest incidents ever, and one worthy of repeating and embellishing for years to come. But did it happen? If so, it must have occured to someone to photograph the nosecone. (I assume this must have been in Sepang).

Then, in Brazil, the team actually arrived with (two?) complete cars, but were not allowed past customs. These cars, according to f1i.com, were not exactly AP04s, but were hybrids concocted out of AP04 front ends, and Arrows AX3 (the three-seater) rear ends. Taking photos in customs halls is probably frowned upon, but it is hard to believe that everybody missed the photo oportunity at one end of the journey or the other, but sadly I have never seen any.

Back to the original AP05 question, there were several photos in Auto Hebdo (I think, or one of the French magazines). Here's one:

[roger_valentine]

Oh damn! The imaged worked on the preview - I guess I have to do it as a link to make it work:

http://www.geocities...tine/ap05-4.jpg

[roger_valentine]

Still doesn't work. You'll have to copy and paste the address into the address bar then. I'll get the hang of posting picture in Atlas one day.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Both links works fine for me....

[mplach]

interesting pic. thanks

the whole dart thing is really strange. i forget: who was supposed to drive for the team? were there any sponsors signed? and...well....did they honestly think that they could even qualify?

[Megatron]

Supposedly, the AP05 tunnel model got very good wind tunnel results and the team were quite optimistic. I believe the DART/Phoniex/TWR was a combination of an AP04, an Arrows three seater, and a few parts from the AP05 that had been built.

How serious can a team be if its drivers are Mazzacane and Marques and the engine was underpowered in 1998?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Megatron
Supposedly, the AP05 tunnel model got very good wind tunnel results and the team were quite optimistic. I believe the DART/Phoniex/TWR was a combination of an AP04, an Arrows three seater, and a few parts from the AP05 that had been built.

How serious can a team be if its drivers are Mazzacane and Marques and the engine was underpowered in 1998?

Phoenix/DART existed for two reasons:

(1) to fill up the grid and therefore to be a viable takeover target for a new team.
(2) to fill up the grid and therefore make Arrows a viable takeover target for a new team.

With a fully-subscribed grid of 24 cars, the worth of any existing team to a buyer becomes very high. Creating a no-hoper like Phoenix out of the Prost assets (and attempting to avoid the BernieBond) means that Uncle Tom was sitting on two very valuable pseudo-franchises that he could sell on.

Of course, his gamble didn't pay off for two reasons - as Prost really didn't exist any more Phoenix/DART wasn't allowed to compete, and anyway the pool of people interested in starting up an F1 team contracted to zero. And it appears to have cost Tom two F1 teams and most of TWR group. Well, that's sharp practices for you.

Don't for a moment think it was about Phoenix/DART being competitive - that wasn't what it was there for. It was there to fill the grid and to be bought and sold.

pete

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Phoenix/DART existed for two reasons:

(1) to fill up the grid and therefore to be a viable takeover target for a new team.
(2) to fill up the grid and therefore make Arrows a viable takeover target for a new team.

With a fully-subscribed grid of 24 cars, the worth of any existing team to a buyer becomes very high. Creating a no-hoper like Phoenix out of the Prost assets (and attempting to avoid the BernieBond) means that Uncle Tom was sitting on two very valuable pseudo-franchises that he could sell on.

Of course, his gamble didn't pay off for two reasons - as Prost really didn't exist any more Phoenix/DART wasn't allowed to compete, and anyway the pool of people interested in starting up an F1 team contracted to zero. And it appears to have cost Tom two F1 teams and most of TWR group. Well, that's sharp practices for you.

Don't for a moment think it was about Phoenix/DART being competitive - that wasn't what it was there for. It was there to fill the grid and to be bought and sold.

pete

Oh and just as an FYI - looks like the team would've competed as DART not Phoenix.

stratos: /home/pete ; whois dartgp.com@whois.geektools.com
[whois.geektools.com]
GeekTools Whois Proxy v5.0 Ready.
Checking access for 217.35.151.161... ok.
Checking server [whois.crsnic.net]
Checking server [whois.opensrs.net]
Results:
Registrant:
Charles Nickerson Land Management
Binbrook Hill
Binbrook
Market Rasen
Lincoln, Lincolnshire LN8 6BL
GB

Domain name: DARTGP.COM

Administrative Contact:
Martin, Kim cjnickerson@yahoo.co.uk
binbrook hill
binbrook
market rasen, Lincolnshire LN8 6BL
GB
<>

Technical Contact:
Nickerson, Charles cjnickerson@yahoo.co.uk
Binbrook Hill
Binbrook
Market Rasen
Lincoln, Lincolnshire LN8 6BL
GB
<>

[ensign14]

Originally posted by petefenelon
And it appears to have cost Tom two F1 teams and most of TWR group. Well, that's sharp practices for you.

It has also cost Minardi and Jordan, whose worth would be a lot higher had DART been allowed to compete. I thought at the time Stoddart was being short termist, and remember he bid for DART as well, but without the Prost TV money there seemed to be a risk that Minardi would go belly up there & then.

[Megatron]

I agree somewhat. It was nothing but a TWR in disguise. My theory was always that he knew Arrows had a ton of debts and investors that weren't going for it, so Arrows goes under, TWR says thats sad, then debuts their new Phoniex. I don't really think he was interested in selling Arrows, I think he knew what was coming.

My point is that in this day and age, efforts like a half AP04 with bits from AP05 and a rear end from an Arrows two seater and Hart engine are not going to be allowed. There are teams like Minardi, then there are teams like Life or Moda. No, the DART was never going to be quick, proabably never qualify, and the efforts was that to allow TWR a new start with less debt. But the stats of the car and drivers showed everyone what a sham it really was.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by roger_valentine


Good question, Rainer. I'm all in favour of Dart/Phoenix references in TNF - those philistines over in Readers Comments seem to regard the whole affair as rather shadey and shabby, whilst over here in TNF we rightly regard it as on of the great 'might have beens' of grand prix history. (Well, one of the ' might have beens'. I'm not sure about the 'great').

Im glad they werent in because it wasnt a race team, it was a business scam. Much like the ghost team that was attempted entry in to this year's CART season so they could get the contigency money (about 1.5mil) and run like hell. You guys complain about the overpowering business side of F1, but then want to see a team that was nothing but a tax scam?

[josh.lintz]

Sorry, trying to get a look at it:

[Rainer Nyberg]

Found this nice computer rendition of the stillborn AP05...

http://www.prost-scr...P05-01-1024.jpg

The direct link does not seem to work, however they are thumbnailed here :

http://www.prost-scr...odies/index.htm