46 replies to this topic

[alan_owens]

I was under the apparently mistaken impression that cars were faster than bikes through corners. I mean cars with aero download. From what I have been able to determine, a racing motorbike will pull about 1.5g in a corner, camber thrust being what it is. I don't think any cars can match that sort of lateral loading without aero download.

At the same time, when similar two wheel and four wheel vehicles lap the same circuit, the four wheeler has a lower laptime. The only example of this that I could come up with is 125cc shifter karts and 125cc bikes at the Daytona (24hr) road course. The karts ran 2:02 and the bikes 2:12.

Trap speeds at Laguna Seca indicate that the ASA Superbikes corner quicker but have a slower top speed than IMSA or CART cars. I would have thought that a bike would accelerate quicker than a car (power to weight being so low for a bike) and that the bike would have a much lower drag to power ratio than a winged open wheel car, so I don't understand why they would have a slower top speed. Under braking cars rule, but is that the only real area where they exceed a bike's performance?

Anyway, I'm a bit confused at the relative merits of two versus four wheels on asphalt. Can anyone shed some light on the subject?

Thanks
Alan

[wegmann]

Power needed to overcome drag goes up with drag CUBED, so a drag-to-power ratio isn't very useful. You'd want a drag^3-to-power ratio to compare top speeds.

Without downforce, I don't think any cars could exceed 1.5g's without some sort of dynamic camber or weight-shifting mechanism. While the peak coefficient of friction for some tires exceeds 2.0, you'll never get that after the load transfer to the outside tires, because loads reduce the coefficient of friction significantly.

[12.9:1]

Alan

If you consider the relative widths, Bike - extreme narrowness, CART car - Quite wide,
This difference dramatically changes the shape of the corner the Bike sees versus the path of the car. This effect will be most evident on road like tracks ( narrow with tight bends ).
On broad sweeping tracks the cars come in to their own, as for the time being there seems no way to use aero. on motorcycles.
.

[Finn Dude]

I didn't read this whole poll, but... if I'm remembering right in Valencia, the F1 cars go like 13 secs fasters than the Moto GP contenders, IF I'm remembering correct, so don't get the wrong impression. The acceleration (McLaren MP4-17 3.6 secs to 150km/h) and especially the decreasing of speed (aka breaking - faster than gaining speed) is from another plante in F1 cars, but it is the cornering speed in the bikes that makes a difference, but it's not so great. The bikes can take fast corners in a larger scale/turning degree than the F1 cars. All the things, the angle of the tyres (wide area of tyres good on slow corners and narrow on fast) and the basic two wheel setup of a bike prefer fast cornering.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Considering a bike accelerates pretty good and has a comparable top end, shouldnt it be *slower* in the corners? I seem to recall a few tracks in British Superbike where F3 pole and SBK pole are pretty similar.

[armchair expert]

Pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that cars with their four large contact patches, compared to the two small footprints of a bike, could achieve a higher cornering speed due to the greater grip this provides.

[berge]

Car & Driver had an issue a while back with a Viper and a 1100cc sport bike at laguna seca. the car cornered better.

[AndersF1]

What is a drag to power ratio?
Drag is a force and force times velocity equals power, so I guess that a drag to power ratio is the same for every vehicle, one over velocity... Or have I missed something?
Maybe you mean power to velocity ratio, better known as drag? Or maybe even power to velocity-cube ratio, aka dragcoefficient(CD) times 0.5 times density?

[int2str]

Comparing (most) motorcycles to F1 cars is pretty unrealisic. An F1 car has about 1.5hp for 1 kg os mass, a superbike has about 1hp for every kg of weight (including the driver that is).

As for pure cornering speed however, I do believe that a bike is faster than a car. Motorcyclist had a test of a GSX-R against a Corvette Z06. Remarkable from the test is not that the GSX-R smoked the Vette, but the comment of the rider (Kevin Schwantz) afterwards. He noted that they actually expected the car to be closer in corners but pointed out that bike tire technology had come a long way since they had previously tested the same lineup a few years back (older models vehicles as well obviously). So tires made the biggest change. Here is where F1 might have the edge by now.

You guys keep saying a car breaks faster - this is my greatest objection. I do believe bikes brake much faster. While I can't come up with a good formula car vs. bike comparison, I have to refer to the motorcylist test again. On the drag strip the bike completely anihilated the vette in a 0-60-0 run. The 0-60 wasn't the big deal, on the 60-0 the bike was centuries ahead of the vette.

Overall I think a F1 car will always be faster on a track with a few decent straights, but not in the corners (where the bike will have a small edge IMHO).

The biggest difference is aerodynamics IMHO.
0-60 bike and car will be *very* close, since aerodynamics are not such a big factor yet.
60-++ the car will pull ahead because the bikes have a relative higher wind resistance.

I've experienced this first hand when racing my 120HP road bike against a roughly 600HP Cobra replica with about the same power/weight ratio. 0-60 the cobra wasn't much of a match. 60+ it was time to wave bye bye to the cobra as it pulled past me and away. This was straight line racing.

Cheers,
Andre

[MugenDomeNSX]

I'm sorry but if you think a bike can corner faster than you are very very wrong.

The Japanese Grand Touring cars i.e. NSX, Supra, Skyline do the Sepang Circuit in 1'59's while the bikes do 2'05's thats about 5 seconds. Considering the bikes accelerate at about the rate of a Cart or F1 car, and the JGTC cars are much slower to accelerate, one would HAVE TO assume that the cars corner WAAAAAY quicker. Those are MotoGP bikes, by the way and boy do they out accelerate the JGTC cars.

Just my two cents..

http://www.jgtc.net/...r4e/024menu.htm

http://images.motogr.../157/157706.jpg

[AS110]

Some years ago Wheels magazine did a comparo between a Ducati superbike and Wayne Gardners Commodore,tested on 6 tracks.It was an even split - the bike was fastest on 3 tracks,the car on 3 too,what was interesting was that the bike was faster on the higher speed tracks,the car faster on the twisty tracks - the Duke pulled a higher top speed down conrod than the Commodore,not what I expected.

[Leo]

A couple of years ago a Dutch magazine compared a Yamaha R6 (rider: Jurgen vd Goorbergh) to a Subaru Impreza 555 (driver: Tom Coronel) at the Assen circuit. The Subaru was quite a bit quicker over a lap. Analysis revealed that vd Goorbergh lost out both on accelerating and braking, because at those occasions the bike tries to lift one of the wheels. Still cornering speeds and top speeds didn't differ that much, although there was only one big exception: in the banked, top gear, blind left-hander called Ramshoek vd Goorbergh went something like 30 km/h quicker than Coronel, cause Tom had to lift the throttle a little in the Subaru.

[desmo]

Comparisons between even modified road cars and motorcycles hugely favor the bikes due to the fact that road cars are much further removed from their pure racing counterparts than bikes. The comparison between 125cc shifter karts and 125GP bikes seems a much fairer comparison to me. In an apples/apples comparison, I believe the descrepencies between four and two wheels will significantly favor the four wheeled vehicle. Tire contact patch area as a function of vehicle weights would I expect find the four relatively flat tires of the kart allow significantly higher lateral accelerations than the analogous motorcycle. I do know that back in the '70s that a hugely underpowered 100cc "enduro" lay down kart would lap faster than even a 1000cc Superbike on a road course.

[schuy]

In Israel, we used to run races with karts and 50cc scooters.
The 7hp karts were pretty much equal in lap times to the scooters, whilst the 16hp karts(2-stroke) were much quicker than the scooters.
The scooters were nowhere near us in corner-speeds.

Liran.

[pmachan]

Originally posted by int2str
Comparing (most) motorcycles to F1 cars is pretty unrealisic. An F1 car has about 1.5hp for 1 kg os mass, a superbike has about 1hp for every kg of weight (including the driver that is).

As for pure cornering speed however, I do believe that a bike is faster than a car. Motorcyclist had a test of a GSX-R against a Corvette Z06. Remarkable from the test is not that the GSX-R smoked the Vette, but the comment of the rider (Kevin Schwantz) afterwards. He noted that they actually expected the car to be closer in corners but pointed out that bike tire technology had come a long way since they had previously tested the same lineup a few years back (older models vehicles as well obviously). So tires made the biggest change. Here is where F1 might have the edge by now.

You guys keep saying a car breaks faster - this is my greatest objection. I do believe bikes brake much faster. While I can't come up with a good formula car vs. bike comparison, I have to refer to the motorcylist test again. On the drag strip the bike completely anihilated the vette in a 0-60-0 run. The 0-60 wasn't the big deal, on the 60-0 the bike was centuries ahead of the vette.

Overall I think a F1 car will always be faster on a track with a few decent straights, but not in the corners (where the bike will have a small edge IMHO).

The biggest difference is aerodynamics IMHO.
0-60 bike and car will be *very* close, since aerodynamics are not such a big factor yet.
60-++ the car will pull ahead because the bikes have a relative higher wind resistance.

I've experienced this first hand when racing my 120HP road bike against a roughly 600HP Cobra replica with about the same power/weight ratio. 0-60 the cobra wasn't much of a match. 60+ it was time to wave bye bye to the cobra as it pulled past me and away. This was straight line racing.

Cheers,
Andre

The test by Motorcyclist was faulty. They stuck the stickiest DOT legal road race tire on the bike, but did not do the same for the car, this is a HUGE difference. The bike had DOT Pilot race tires, the car had street Pilot sports, they should have placed a Hoosier DOT race tire on the car, the test would have had much different results, the bike may have won still, but not by nearly as much. IMO they could have picked a beter car for this as well.

I can give some insight to this discussion perhaps, I race at a track here in Canada, it is a smallish technical track caled Atlantic Motorsport Park, we have a round of the Canadian Superbike Championship, and we run regional Formula Fords. The top Fords are as quick as the National Superbikes. The very underpowered FF cars are cornering MUCH faster that the 180HP superbikes.
Now at Mosport, the bikes simply destroy the fords, as Mosport is much faster with large WOT sections.

To someones earlier comment, alot of road cars can hit over 1.5g with DOT race tires, we have placed our DA equipment in several street cars at local slalom events (my Honda Civic included), almost all of them have placed near or above 1.5g, oddly enough, in the slow speed environment that is Slalom racing, we could not get significantly higher G loads in our GT-1 Corvette with 14" wide slicks and some downforce....

[dosco]

I do believe the original post was for *cars with aero downforce.*

That being said, the aero adds enough downforce that:
braking decelerations to 2-3g (according to Piola's figures)
cornering forces up to 4g (I've read 4g in virtually every racing publication)

Motorcycles are not capable of maintaining a 4g turn.

Additionally, I do recall that F1 Racing magazine did a moto-GP vs F1 car side by side at Silverstone. The lap times were within a couple of seconds of one another, but the split times told the story: the F1 car smoked the moto-GP bike in the cornders.

dosco

[schuy]

Which machine up-shifts the gears faster, a Moto-GP or an F1 car?

[Aubwi]

Has there ever been an attempt to put aero downforce on a bike? I can't imagine how that would be done, but this forum has suprised me before.

[alan_owens]

Apologies Dosco, I meant "without" downforce, but left the "out" part out! d'oh!

I know that with download a car will kick ass in the corners. The Brabham fan car pulled some serious lateral loading even in slow corners.

But thank you all for the replies. Obviously there is still some disagreement, but the gist of is that four wheels trumps two if the tyres are right. I guess in general bikes run on softer "rubber" than cars.

I'd never really seen, for example, skid pad numbers for cars much over 1g, but I always figured a purpose built race car should easily exceed anything on the street. And the value of camber thrust is quite amazing in overcoming the very small contact patch size of a bike to take it up to such high lateral loads.

Regards
Alan

[Mox]

Originally posted by Aubwi
Has there ever been an attempt to put aero downforce on a bike? I can't imagine how that would be done, but this forum has suprised me before.

This is cheating a little bit - but I have to mention side-car racing.

Plenty of aero-downforce on those beasts

[Scoots]

IIRC the brake points for MotoGP vs. F1 at Suzuka at the end of the main straight is at the 180 marker for the bikes and 60 for the cars. F1 cars have simply amazing brakes. This doesn't really help the discussion, but I thought it interesting.

[schuy]

Yeah F1 cars are scary like that.

[McLaren M20]

Last Summer Nicky Hayden and Michael Andretti swaped Rides with Hayden driving Andretti`s Lola Honda and Andretti riding Haydens HRC RC51 Superbike at Mid-Ohio. Motorcyclist had an Article about the swap and a data graph with the speeds of the Car and the SuperBike around each Corner and straightways at Mid-Ohio. The Lola- Honda was quicker in every Turn except one and was faster down the Straight at 186 mph compared to 179 for the Honda RC 51. The bike and Car were close in the slower corners but the car with its extra Downforce was much quicker in the faster corners. The Lola- Honda also had a big edge in Acceleration and Braking.

[Aubwi]

Certainly amazing brakes, but I'm sure an F1 car also has much more drag, both mechanical and aero, which greatly increases the braking too. And I believe the bikes are further limited by the weight transfer lifting the rear off the ground.

[later]

From f1Live last year...not a direct response, but interesting nonetheless.



Juan Pablo Montoya

Pit lane in Jerez saw a visitor of a different kind last weekend when Formula one ace Juan Pablo Montoya paid a visit to the Suzuki pits at the Spanish Grand Prix. The BMW WilliamsF1 Team driver took the opportunity to meet Suzuki riders Kenny Roberts Jr and Sete Gibernau on his weekend off, the Colombian F1 driver now busily preparing for this weekend's race in Austria.

Montoya, who drives for the British based Williams team, spent time chatting with both Suzuki riders, comparing the performance of his car, the FW24, with their bikes……

"How fast can you get to 100kph?"Montoya enquired.
"2.3 - 2.4 seconds," was the reply from Kenny. "A bit quicker if we really tried."
"That's good, we are around 2.5 seconds," Montoya compared. "What are your lap times at Sepang in Malaysia, it must be a long circuit for you?"
"It is, 2-minutes 4-seconds."

Montoya stopped for a moment and gave the answer some thought, reflecting back to March this year when the Formula One circus was on the Malaysian circuit for round two of the season……

"1m35s for us I think, very fast, I like it," was his eventual response.
"But you have great brakes,” Kenny smiled….”You hit the brakes and you stop."

The talk then turned to another track they both compete on, the Catalunya circuit in Barcelona….

"At Barcelona, when do you start braking for the second turn?" the Colombian asked.
"The 180 board," replied Sete.
"We touch the brakes at 60," replied Montoya.

The discussion covered everything from the electronics and traction control systems used on the F1 cars to comparing the 47kg V4 Suzuki 990cc engine to the 85kg V10 Williams motor. Montoya, who has visited bike races before was impressed with the weekend and summed it up by simply saying….

"These guys are great - very professional. They are just like us (F1 drivers), but we have a chassis surrounding us and they don't."

[AndreasNystrom]

Its pretty well known in MotoGP that NOTHING comes close to the cornerspeed of a 125cc MotoGP. (In MotoGP) Thats cause of one simple thing. Wheight, the 125cc has less wheight then its bigger brothers, who cant corner at the same speed, not even close in some corners. But it looses bigtime on the straights.

So, i guess that Viper vs 1100cc was simple cause the bike was too heavy.

[AndreasNystrom]

Btw, MotoGP always have this technical information on the day before the practices starts on TV (Eurosport for me), and they show stuff from the engineers, like you get to see their computers showing telemetry, and they show sensors on the bike that watches the front vs rearwheel speed, this way they can tell if you get wheelspin or not. And the telemetry showed that the bikes had awful tractionproblems Wheelspin up to 250km/h wasnt anything uncommon, and they had big problems going in turns and accelerating without wheelspin, or doing a wheelie most of the times. Very nice information you get btw. They showed the internals of Kawasakis gearbox and how the clutches worked, and they showed a normal bikes gearbox and the clutches. And how to reduce the enourmos engingbraking the 4strokes makes.

ah well, thats maybe another topic

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Aubwi
Has there ever been an attempt to put aero downforce on a bike? I can't imagine how that would be done, but this forum has suprised me before.

I believe that putting downforce on bikes would be counter productive, unless they keep the bike vertical through the corners.

Otherwise the downforce would increase the force that the tyres' grip has to balance.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by schuy
Which machine up-shifts the gears faster, a Moto-GP or an F1 car?

Without a shadow of a doubt the F1 car.........

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by dosco
I do recall that F1 Racing magazine did a moto-GP vs F1 car side by side at Silverstone. The lap times were within a couple of seconds of one another, but the split times told the story: the F1 car smoked the moto-GP bike in the cornders.

I find that very hard to believe.

At Eastern Creek in Sydney, the Moto GP (500cc) bikes were doing lap times in the low 1m30s bracket.

In comparison, the Formula Holdens (old - pre 1995 - F3000 cars with Holden (nee Buick) pushrod V6s), with about 300hp, were running in the mid 1m20s bracket.

[AndreasNystrom]

Superbike laptime at silverstone, 2:05m
F1 laptime at silverstone, pole 2002 1:18.998

But on a track like hockenheim, it might get closer. I remember Rossi did 370km/h at Suzuka, then i wonder what he would do at hockenheim

[schuy]

Originally posted by Wuzak


I find that very hard to believe.

At Eastern Creek in Sydney, the Moto GP (500cc) bikes were doing lap times in the low 1m30s bracket.

In comparison, the Formula Holdens (old - pre 1995 - F3000 cars with Holden (nee Buick) pushrod V6s), with about 300hp, were running in the mid 1m20s bracket.

So why do you find it hard to believe?

[DoS]

Originally posted by int2str
Comparing (most) motorcycles to F1 cars is pretty unrealisic. An F1 car has about 1.5hp for 1 kg os mass, a superbike has about 1hp for every kg of weight (including the driver that is).

As for pure cornering speed however, I do believe that a bike is faster than a car. Motorcyclist had a test of a GSX-R against a Corvette Z06. Remarkable from the test is not that the GSX-R smoked the Vette, but the comment of the rider (Kevin Schwantz) afterwards. He noted that they actually expected the car to be closer in corners but pointed out that bike tire technology had come a long way since they had previously tested the same lineup a few years back (older models vehicles as well obviously). So tires made the biggest change. Here is where F1 might have the edge by now.

You guys keep saying a car breaks faster - this is my greatest objection. I do believe bikes brake much faster. While I can't come up with a good formula car vs. bike comparison, I have to refer to the motorcylist test again. On the drag strip the bike completely anihilated the vette in a 0-60-0 run. The 0-60 wasn't the big deal, on the 60-0 the bike was centuries ahead of the vette.

Overall I think a F1 car will always be faster on a track with a few decent straights, but not in the corners (where the bike will have a small edge IMHO).

The biggest difference is aerodynamics IMHO.
0-60 bike and car will be *very* close, since aerodynamics are not such a big factor yet.
60-++ the car will pull ahead because the bikes have a relative higher wind resistance.

I've experienced this first hand when racing my 120HP road bike against a roughly 600HP Cobra replica with about the same power/weight ratio. 0-60 the cobra wasn't much of a match. 60+ it was time to wave bye bye to the cobra as it pulled past me and away. This was straight line racing.

Cheers,
Andre

Nope sorry u are wrong. U r wrong because you compare a gixxer 1100 (the ultimate steet production bike) to a Corvette Z06...
To even-out the match you would have to use a Ferrari F50, although i am pretty sure a "less exotic car" like a 911 turbo would do ;)

Braking you say ??? do not compare the braking efficiency of an 1600 kg car with that of a bike. Compare the bike with an F3 car...

And the F1 car don't need straights to be faster than the bike...a few slow corners generally kill the bikes times - a Go-Kart can handle low speed corners much better than a bike ;)

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by schuy


So why do you find it hard to believe?

That the lap times of a bike were anywhere near the times of the GP car around Silverstone.

A few seconds..........I would have thought it nearer 20s or 30s!

[jsadie]

My thinking goes that a car has much greater traction/grip on low speed corners.The bike on the other hand is faster through high speed corners.This is very true if i compare my bike (R1- 1000 cc) to my BMW 328i.

The bike is most uncomfortable/hard to drive in slow speed corners , but handles high speed corners much better than the BMW.

In terms of braking - the car is quicker with 4 wheels/4 discs while the bike has only 1 wheel/1 disc effectively braking.

The bike does brake quicker than the BMW - but get the weight of the car to under 800 KG , and the car becomes much quicker.

Around Kyalami - the bike does 2 :07
The car : 2 20

The track has lots of high - speed corners and the bike does well there


Around Midvaal - the bike 1 : 18
The car : 1 14

The track has lots of slow - speed corners and the car does well there.

Just for comparison :


Kyalami : F1 1 : 20
WSB 1 : 47

[MclarenF1]

Originally posted by DoS


Nope sorry u are wrong. U r wrong because you compare a gixxer 1100 (the ultimate steet production bike) to a Corvette Z06...
To even-out the match you would have to use a Ferrari F50, although i am pretty sure a "less exotic car" like a 911 turbo would do ;)

What do you mean by "even it out"? The bike costs $10,000 USD, a F50 is not even reasonable (over $400,000 USD?) or even a 911 turbo, for that price you could have Colin Edwards on a HRC RC51 SP2 and have enough money left over to have him pilot it for the compairson!

http://www.hrcusa.co...p_vtr_comp.html

I am sure that there are a lot of other go fast goodies on Colid Edwards bike, but you get the picture.

[DoS]

Originally posted by MclarenF1


What do you mean by "even it out"? The bike costs $10,000 USD, a F50 is not even reasonable (over $400,000 USD?) or even a 911 turbo, for that price you could have Colin Edwards on a HRC RC51 SP2 and have enough money left over to have him pilot it for the compairson!

http://www.hrcusa.co...p_vtr_comp.html

I am sure that there are a lot of other go fast goodies on Colid Edwards bike, but you get the picture.

I said the comparison was wrong because "they compare a gixxer 1100 (probably the fastest street production bike) to a Corvette Z06 which is definetely not one of the fastest road cars on any track". If you take into cosideration pricing...then the car will always be the looser (unless we are talking about GO-Karts). But i think that was not the point...in order to make a fare comparison you should compare the fastest production bike with the fastest (or one of the fastest) production cars and that Corvette is just not on that list ! However almost any1 can afford a very fast bike but very few can afford a very fast car

[12.9:1]

______________









Just can't wait till the Season starts

[Croaky]

There's a motoring journalist in the UK called Jeremy Clarkson, and he once did a comparison of bike against car, hoping to prove that cars are cooler. (He's hilariously biassed- he hates bikes 'cos you have to "wear rubber trousers" to rider them!)
Anyway, he got one of the fastest road-going bikes (something like an R1, can't remember exactly) with Niall McKenzie, former British Superbike Champion, and he got a Porsche 911 Carrera 4, four wheel drive, I think it was Jason Plato driving- former British Touring Car Champion.
He got them to race wheel-to-wheel around Thruxton, a racetrack in England with a slow complex then some extremely fast corners and finally a chicane.
The car won, but only by a couple of seconds.
The most noticeable thing was that in the braking zones the bike had to brake waaaaay earlier than the car, the car just sailed past it. The car might have had a higher corner speed, which would also give it a later braking point. The bike caught up on acceleration, superbikes really embarrass a Porsche on the power.
Presumably the enormous contact patches of a car make a huge improvement over the tiny front contact patch on a bike under braking.
I don't think it was very scientific but it was interesting anyway.

[BRIAN GLOVER]

What pray tell is a faster car at a reasonable price, say below $200 000 than a Z06?
My Z06 cost $50 000. I eat NSX's, F360s, 911s, Z8s on any race track, plus I get 30 mpg at 70mph. The only car I fear, is a Viper at $80 000.
Z06 owner.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DoS
[B]
a Corvette Z06 which is definetely not one of the fastest road cars on any track".
........and that Corvette is just not on that list !

[RJL]

Well now things are getting really interesting...

Something that hasn't been mentioned as yet is the difference in feel btwn the two. I used to race cars (FF1600 & FF2000) but got out of it because the costs were beyond rediculous. I got myself a nice open class streetbike instead. Tons of fun at very little cost, and I get to use it as actual transportation (no trailer required).

The real difference btwn cars & bikes? Cars lean the wrong way in corners.;)

[Scoots]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER

What pray tell is a faster car at a reasonable price, say below $200 000 than a Z06?
My Z06 cost $50 000. I eat NSX's, F360s, 911s, Z8s on any race track, plus I get 30 mpg at 70mph. The only car I fear, is a Viper at $80 000.
Z06 owner.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DoS
[B]
a Corvette Z06 which is definetely not one of the fastest road cars on any track".
........and that Corvette is just not on that list ! [/QUOTE]

You are making an argument that the Vette Z06 is a world class sports car and compare it to a Z8 as proof?

Z06s are mighty fast, but I think an F360 would win driven at the limit by the same driver in both cars.

FWIW, my $6000 Mazda MX-5 with a custom turbo on a $500 junk-yard motor does better lap times than either the Z06 or F360 in my track practice group at Thunderhill ... but I'd love to have the F360 (or the Z06 for that matter).

[BRIAN GLOVER]

Proof? OK, so a Z8 is a 5 series with a fancy body, my mistake.
Id rather eat worms than drive a BMW.
If the straight is long enough, the F360 may have a chance, but nowhere else.
The Vettes tires are compromised toward bad weather and life, yet it still gets the numbers. Slicks on both, and it is goodbye Ferrari.
A friend of mine has a F360. It is not a forgiving car at the limit. The padle shift is brutal and unreliable, but much nicer to drive than the Vette. Italians add magic to a car. It is so very stiff, whereas the Vette flexes like a pretzel. But no car can be thrashed like a Vette, and no car has that value.
I wouldnt mind a F360 either. Not even a 911. A F575? How about a Lambo Murcielago. A Viper GTS. Your Mazda sounds like a winner. OK, I'll have one of those too.

Originally posted by Scoots


You are making an argument that the Vette Z06 is a world class sports car and compare it to a Z8 as proof?

Z06s are mighty fast, but I think an F360 would win driven at the limit by the same driver in both cars.

FWIW, my $6000 Mazda MX-5 with a custom turbo on a $500 junk-yard motor does better lap times than either the Z06 or F360 in my track practice group at Thunderhill ... but I'd love to have the F360 (or the Z06 for that matter).

[DoS]

Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER
Proof? OK, so a Z8 is a 5 series with a fancy body, my mistake.
Id rather eat worms than drive a BMW.
If the straight is long enough, the F360 may have a chance, but nowhere else.
The Vettes tires are compromised toward bad weather and life, yet it still gets the numbers. Slicks on both, and it is goodbye Ferrari.
A friend of mine has a F360. It is not a forgiving car at the limit. The padle shift is brutal and unreliable, but much nicer to drive than the Vette. Italians add magic to a car. It is so very stiff, whereas the Vette flexes like a pretzel. But no car can be thrashed like a Vette, and no car has that value.
I wouldnt mind a F360 either. Not even a 911. A F575? How about a Lambo Murcielago. A Viper GTS. Your Mazda sounds like a winner. OK, I'll have one of those too.

R you saying that your vette can beat a 360 or a 911 on a track ??? u r right about one thing though...the 360 is stiff and the vette flexes...i ahte that flexing feeling

[MclarenF1]

Here is a link to a cool video of Valentino Rossi laping Valencia on his RC211V.
http://www.employees...ossi_rc211v.wmv

[BRIAN GLOVER]

All day long.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DoS
[B]

R you saying that your vette can beat a 360 or a 911 on a track ???

[schuy]

Originally posted by MclarenF1
Here is a link to a cool video of Valentino Rossi laping Valencia on his RC211V.
http://www.employees...ossi_rc211v.wmv

Thanks for the link, fantastic video.