61 replies to this topic

[cheesy poofs]

Is Villeneuve the only guy out there that shifts up and down with the same (right) hand ?

Anyone know ?

[JForce]

He doesn't do that...he goes up and down backwards to the others.

Everyone else uses Right paddle up, Left paddle down.
JVi uses Left up, Right down.

Lets face it though...he does it to be different. Im surprised he doesn't accelerate with his left and brake with his right

[Marlowe]

I was reading an article in F1 Racing (2000) , they were analyzing JV's starts and in the article it is as Cheesy Poofs describes it. In addition, the other paddle is use for the clutch if I can remember it correctly.

[RJL]

Yes that's right. JV uses one hand for both up & down shifting and the other to control the clutch; it's how his grandmother taught him to drive. He did it this way becuse he felt the hand clutch gave him an advantage on the starts. I think most of the cars have hand clutches now though, in addition to two levers. I remember Mika used the hand clutch also IIRC.

[logic]

You know, it easier to remember: "click upper button to shift up. click the button down to shift down"

[Mat]

Going by Piola, the italiant who does the technical drawings, yes he is the only one to up and downshift with the one paddle.

Hopefully he can go back to his good starts after Britain!

[RJL]

Roger that.

[GL*]

Originally posted by Mat
Going by Piola, the italiant who does the technical drawings, yes he is the only one to up and downshift with the one paddle.

Hopefully he can go back to his good starts after Britain!

That's what I'm hoping for too. JV has been artificially limited by sub-par electronic aids since the beginning of 2001. IMHO, it's no coincidence that this period has also been his career's darkest. It's one thing to have good cars and bad cars. It's a painful magnification of this divide, when the good cars have good drivers' aids, while the bad cars have bad drivers' aids. In part, now that JV's talent is less abstracted from the task at hand, I think we'll see some stunning performances from him through the mid-to-end of the season.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by RJL
Yes that's right. JV uses one hand for both up & down shifting and the other to control the clutch; it's how his grandmother taught him to drive.

His Grandma has a car with an F1 gearbox?


And almost everyone (if not everyone) uses a hand clutch

[kober]

I believe he uses even the same paddle for shifting - he pushes the paddle for downshift and pulls it for upshift. But I don't have my Piola book by hand to be completely sure.

[Mat]

Originally posted by kober
I believe he uses even the same paddle for shifting - he pushes the paddle for downshift and pulls it for upshift. But I don't have my Piola book by hand to be completely sure.

yes, that was what everyone above was saying.

[Breadmaster]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
His Grandma has a car with an F1 gearbox?

yes.

doesn't yours?

[cheesy poofs]

Also, I have read somewhere about JVi's minimal pedal movement for both accelerator and brake.

[DoS]

Originally posted by Breadmaster


yes.

doesn't yours?

haha...my grandma drives an F1 car...when she is bored that is...

[JVRACER]

Most F1 setups have 2 large paddles and one smaller for the clutch , which is usually located on the left hand side,below the downshift paddle. Cheesey Poofs is absolutely 1000% correct in his statement . JV does shift up and down on the same lever and the other larger one is for the clutch. Dont forget it was JV that brought up this idea to the engineers at Williams about having paddles instead of CART style of shifting ( If I remember correctly) .Its definately unique , I couldnt or wouldnt want to drive that way but hey to each his own.

[JacnGille]

Originally posted by JVRACER
... Dont forget it was JV that brought up this idea to the engineers at Williams about having paddles instead of CART style of shifting ( If I remember correctly) ...

????????? I thought paddle shifters had been around since Mansell's time at Ferrari? Am I missing something in your post or has my memory finally deserted me?

[kober]

Originally posted by Mat


yes, that was what everyone above was saying.

Except those suggesting reverse use of paddles, or two paddles on the same side. But you said it right, I missed it on first look.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by JVRACER
Dont forget it was JV that brought up this idea to the engineers at Williams about having paddles instead of CART style of shifting ( If I remember correctly) .Its definately unique , I couldnt or wouldnt want to drive that way but hey to each his own.

Hmmm Must have got the idea from a Ferrari road car which was already using the same Paddle shifters used on the F1 cars long before JV got to F1 or even CART I believe. Probably when he was like 10 he called Patrick Head up and gave him that idea.

[tony]

Doesn't a computer do the shifting now?

[Beej]

Originally posted by JVRACER
Most F1 setups have 2 large paddles and one smaller for the clutch , which is usually located on the left hand side,below the downshift paddle. Cheesey Poofs is absolutely 1000% correct in his statement . JV does shift up and down on the same lever and the other larger one is for the clutch. Dont forget it was JV that brought up this idea to the engineers at Williams about having paddles instead of CART style of shifting ( If I remember correctly) .Its definately unique , I couldnt or wouldnt want to drive that way but hey to each his own.

I thought Ferrari first used the Paddle shift sequential Box in 89, From the season review it blames this on a lot of Mansells problems with the Ferrari in the 89 season with this very new unique ( at the time)
gearbox. If you look at The Senna Files
you can see the two carbon fibre paddles on the 94 Williams steering wheel.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Beej


I thought Ferrari first used the Paddle shift sequential Box in 89, From the season review it blames this on a lot of Mansells problems with the Ferrari in the 89 season with this very new unique ( at the time)
gearbox. If you look at The Senna Files
you can see the two carbon fibre paddles on the 94 Williams steering wheel.

HAHA JV claiming he suggested paddle shifters falls into the Al Gore developing the internet category

[MaxScelerate]

Originally posted by tifosi



HAHA JV claiming he suggested paddle shifters falls into the Al Gore developing the internet category

Duh.. You'd try to come up with something more stupid and inaccurate than that, you wouldn't be able to. Where/When did JV claim such a thing? Oh? You mean you understood that from a post on here? Ahhhhh... Well it's different, y'know?

Besides, while JV never invented any sort of gear-shifter, he certainly got the Williams crew to rewire his SteeringWheel (every driver gets that) in a very creative way (not many ask for that). After all, a double-action paddle on the right-side for shifting and a 'analog' clutch on the left paddle isn't your usual configuration.

They (the Williams crew) were also pretty sceptic when Jacques asked for only a few centimetres travel on his throttle and brake pedals. But judging by his starts at BAR (pre-electronics) I'd say he could drive it with keyboard and mouse if he wanted.

[RJL]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld




And almost everyone (if not everyone) uses a hand clutch

Sigh...which is why I said this in the post you quoted me from

I think most of the cars have hand clutches now though, in addition to two levers.

You really must do something about that attention deficit.

[cheesy poofs]

I can't remember if JVi is a left or right foot braker...?

[Mat]

hes a left foot braker.

[312 PB]

what a dumba$$ thread ...

[kodandaram]

I think it would be very useful if we were to put all that everyone has said here in one post to help somebody who isn't quick to realise what we are talking here -

JV is -

1. Left foot braker
2. Classical driver - brake first , turn in later , power oversteer
3. Uses on paddle on Left hand side to shift up and down. Push it away - shift up ; pull it towards him - shift down
4. Has a button on the sterring wheel to use as a handbrake
5. Has a hand operated clutch as well.
6. uses a throttle with the shortest throw ( travel) in F1

Contrary to what some people say here not everyone uses a hand operated clutch . DC till 2001 used a third pedal in the footwell as a clutch.HE only realised later that he thought he was losing time with right foot braking and it took McLaren so long to try and get him to get rid of that third pedal.

JV is unique that no one else uses only one paddle to shift up and down. No one has such a short throttle throw. JV was the only driver to make use of the button on the wheel as a hand brake for starts since 2000. This coupled with his good feel for the hand clutch makes him and excellent starter IMO - of course he has excellnt hand-eye-foot co-ordination.

[Amadeus]

The one padel control is unusual in F1, but not elsewhere. In Rally driving the sequential box uses a lever which is yanked in one direction for up and the opposite direction for down. Many "sequential" auto boxes on road cars use the same technique. As do mororbikes, which are probably the closest to F1 with a hand operated clutch and a sequential box that has up/down shifts controlled by a single level (though obviously foot operated in that case)

[The Fazz]

About Jacques' short brake & accelerator pedals: what benefit is it to have an "on/off" brake & accelerator setup? Does he blip blip the throttle like keyboard sim-racers? And how so easy it is to lock-up and spin wheels... not a lot of finesse, but masochistic.

[Amadeus]

With TC a short accelerator throw is useful - stamp on the power and let TC sort out the mess behind - remember RB trying to control the Ferrari a while back (god memory - I can't even remember the season let alone the track!) after his TC cut out? He kept power oversteering and spinning because his pedel travell was so short.

If they had ABS then a short brake throw would also make sense, since they don't you have to presume superb pedel feel....

[The Fazz]

Originally posted by Amadeus
With TC a short accelerator throw is useful - stamp on the power and let TC sort out the mess behind - remember RB trying to control the Ferrari a while back (god memory - I can't even remember the season let alone the track!) after his TC cut out? He kept power oversteering and spinning because his pedel travell was so short.

If they had ABS then a short brake throw would also make sense, since they don't you have to presume superb pedel feel....

Jacques had been driving with the short travel since Williams (not sure about his CART days). Perhaps he has superb feel... but why make it more difficult? As it is he locks-up far too often... and what about wet weather driving?

Incidently, I think Rubens spinning race was at Canada 2001. TC had just been allowed, only for his to fail.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by MaxScelerate


Duh.. You'd try to come up with something more stupid and inaccurate than that, you wouldn't be able to. Where/When did JV claim such a thing? Oh? You mean you understood that from a post on here? Ahhhhh... Well it's different, y'know?

Yes, from this thread, I didn't mean to actually slam JVil, I plan on eating at his restaurant in June so I don't wanna upset him. It was JVRACER who said JV introduced this unique new concept to Williams, bringing it over from CART. Now possibly noone at Williams had a clue as to paddle shifting despite its use in F1 for 6 years prior to JVs arrival but I kinda doubt it.

[kodandaram]

Do you know Matt Bishop ?

I think he is the editor-in-chief of f1 Racing magazine. He is the main force behind these intricate details. He is also to be credited with making a lot of noise about the new suspension of Renault , the twin keel chassis etc. As you may guess he kind of overcomplicates these issues.

This man was a JAcques fan in 2000 where he heaped praise on him in a issue that year where JAcques was the feature stroy. Now he is one of the more outspoken critics of Jacques.

In feb issue he did an interview for their cover story on Jacques and according to what JAcques
says there - he likes to have a throttle pedal which is very sensitive - like a PC mouse. For whatever reason Jacques feels comfortable with this

Thats his reasoning . Practically I feel it makes the car extremely difficult to driver especially while getting down the power. But if u are used to it then perhaps there is an advantage to it . Jacques is able to minimise his foot movement in in the footwell since he only needs to move the pedal a little to get a reaction from the engine ..... you need a lot of control , precision and co-ordination to get it right - and if it rains - you also need balls.

Interestingly Takuma Sato drove JV's car at a test at silverstone in 2001 and didn't seem to be too uncomfortable - so perhaps it is not too difficult . What Iam interested in is how JV will perform without TC in 2003 post BGP.

[The Fazz]

Originally posted by kodandaram
Jacques is able to minimise his foot movement in in the footwell since he only needs to move the pedal a little to get a reaction from the engine ..... you need a lot of control , precision and co-ordination to get it right - and if it rains - you also need balls.

Interestingly Takuma Sato drove JV's car at a test at silverstone in 2001 and didn't seem to be too uncomfortable - so perhaps it is not too difficult . What Iam interested in is how JV will perform without TC in 2003 post BGP.

Whilst the benefits of having a short throttle is a quick response, the downside far outweighs the benefit, IMHO. It is so easy to make a big mistake that way. Sneeze, and ooops you're in the gravel. I have no doubt Jacques will cope okay after the British GP - he's done it before - but it still boggles the mind when the error tolerance is only 1mm of foot travel.

[Veronika]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


His Grandma has a car with an F1 gearbox?

Gosh, she must be a witch:)

[Chris G.]

Originally posted by Veronika


Gosh, she must be a witch:)

Nope, just a goth-vegan ... with an F1 car.

[baddog]

jacques in his interview oddly described a short throttle as giving you more precise control (maybe someone can dig up an exact quote?).. this is precisely the opposite of the effect it actually has of course, as it gives you a faster response at the expense of less precise control.. But that may just have been unfortunate wording on his part.

Shaun

[baddog]

duh. mag is in front of me here.

"Of course! Maybe a longer pedal is more smooth, but its much less precise, I like a throttle pedal to be like a mouse on a pc; you can put the cursor exactly where you want it precisely because the movement you have to make is so small. Imagine if you had to move the mouse a whole metre in order to move the cursor around, you'd be far less precise. Well it's the same with the throttle pedal"

LOL

I'm not an expert on throttle pedals, but I am an expert on mice. Slower is more precise, faster is less precise. stupid boy

Shaun

[The Fazz]

Originally posted by baddog
jacques in his interview oddly described a short throttle as giving you more precise control (maybe someone can dig up an exact quote?).. this is precisely the opposite of the effect it actually has of course, as it gives you a faster response at the expense of less precise control.. But that may just have been unfortunate wording on his part.

Shaun

Perhaps Jacques doesn't know what precise throttle control means? Is this a case of using an axe to slice a loaf of bread?

The other thing about Jacques is his preference for stiff suspension setups. Good for quick response, but very unforgiving... that together with the short travel...

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by baddog
this is precisely the opposite of the effect it actually has of course, as it gives you a faster response at the expense of less precise control..

the shorter reaction time makes it possible to have more precise control of the car, not more precise control of the throttle.

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by The Fazz


Perhaps Jacques doesn't know what precise throttle control means? Is this a case of using an axe to slice a loaf of bread?

if the loaf of bread is moving at 300kph, you've gotta chop quick otherwise the moment is lost

[baddog]

Originally posted by Jacaré

the shorter reaction time makes it possible to have more precise control of the car, not more precise control of the throttle.

this is not correct.

A shorter reaction time lets you have a faster but less precise control. This is a VERY valid preference, but its interesting to note that jacques doesnt understand the logic underlying his preference. His mouse analogy is very clear, and very obviously backwards.

Shaun

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by baddog


A shorter reaction time lets you have a faster but less precise control.

yes of the throttle, but if the car needs a hint of oversteer, only a very fast throttle will give you that precision with the car, otherwise there is too much lag between the foot movement and the car response. It's a tradeoff.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Jacaré

yes of the throttle, but if the car needs a hint of oversteer, only a very fast throttle will give you that precision with the car, otherwise there is too much lag between the foot movement and the car response. It's a tradeoff.

a longer throttle does not increase lag between foot movement and response. it increases the time taken to apply X throttle by a tiny amount, but lag isnt a good way to put it.. its getting what you want quicker, but with less precise control over what you get.

As I said it may be a better way.. I make no criticism of it as a preference.. just in his description of it.. and his mouse analogy means what you describe isnt what he means at all is it? he says a smaller hand movement means you can place the mouse pointer more accurately, a clearly silly suggestion.

Shaun

[The Fazz]

Not sure whether I read Jacques' logic correct. His consistent preference for quick response (eg, single paddle shifting, short foot pedals, stiff suspension) seems to indicate to me the need to have the ability to quickly correct errors, as opposed to accurately telling the car what to do. I cannot see it any other way.

The mouse example - to me a short mouse travel gives me the ability to quickly point to something with minimal movement, and the expense of accuracy. So I think Jacques is confusing precision with response.

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by baddog
but lag isnt a good way to put it

I think the time lag is important. In that small amount of time, the car will have changed behaviour and will be doing something else. Precision means being able to apply the throttle to control the attitude of the car while it is happening, rather than after it has happened.

[baddog]

jacare thats a bit of a reach to get from jacques words to that interpretation though isnt it?

Shaun

[Marlowe]

If I may add to this discussion . . . .

According to Patrick Head (again in F1 Magazine), despite Villeneuve's use of a short throttle pedal his "traces" are as accurate as anyone.

Accuracy for any driver I would imagine is not just about being able to place the throttle at the exact point but also at the exact time. As such, to have a slow mouse is accurate if you are just pointing and clicking on the internet. However, in a video game, where time is crucial, you would need speed to be very accurate and precise in your response.

[MugenDomeNSX]

I wonder what all the fuss is about. The man is an F1 world champion. How is it up to us who've probably never driven a race car, let alone an F1 car to think we know more than him??

Weird.

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by MugenDomeNSX
I wonder what all the fuss is about. The man is an F1 world champion. How is it up to us who've probably never driven a race car, let alone an F1 car to think we know more than him??

Weird.

Very much agreed!!!