38 replies to this topic

[schuy]

Hello everyone,

I had heard from a friend some time ago, that Max Mosley's father was the founder of some faschist party just after or during ww2.

Does anyone know anything about it?
Sounds interesting.

Thanks,

Liran Biderman.

[karlth]

Yes his father was Oswald Mosley who founded the British Union of Fascists.

Max Mosley once said something to the effect that one of the things that endeared him to racing was that nobody cared where you came from.

Totally agree.

[Vitesse2]

Max's father was Sir Oswald Mosley, founder of the British Union of Fascists. An Internet search using either of those terms should produce thousands of hits, Liran.

[Peter Morley]

It is very well known that Sir Oswald Mosley founded the British Union of Fascists

There is a whole website (no doubt many more) about him:

http://www.oswaldmosley.com/

And a society called the Friends of Oswald Mosley (F.O.M.)

As a recent press release put it:

"Max's father was an early proponent of the single European Market" (e.g. European Union).
Another proponent around that time would have been Adolph Hitler.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by karlth
Max Mosley once said something to the effect that one of the things that endeared him to racing was that nobody cared where you came from.

Totally agree.

Maybe so, but I've seen reference to BUF car club badges being common in the competitors' car park at Brooklands in the 1930s. Not something that's talked about much: Captain Marendaz was one of the most prominent - we had a thread about him a while back.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
BUF car club badges being common in the competitors' car park at Brooklands in the 1930s.

That would not surprise me in the least. Brooklands was always about "the right crowd and no crowding" which essentially meant it was the ruling classes at play. And in the '30s, the British ruling classes, in the throes, remember, of the Depression, were greatly concerned about communism taking over. There was a desire for "strong government" and fascism was seen as a way to oppose the "Red Peril". There was a considerable amount of sympathy for the likes of Mussolini and even Hitler - it is still reckoned that the Duke of Windsor (formerly King Edward) was a Hitler supporter. This was of course before the full horrors of Nazism were understood.

So Sir Oswald Mosley (one of the ruling classes himself) certainly drew support from that strata of society. The British working classes at that time were pretty strongly left-wing and didn't think much of fascism and it was largely they who took to the streets to oppose Mosley.

It is to Max Mosley's credit that he has succeeded in building a career and a positive public image despite being the son of the British fascist leader. Such a heritage could have been a real mill-stone for him to bear, but he has managed to deal with it so remarkably well that his background, although public knowledge, is rarely mentioned.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by BRG
That would not surprise me in the least. Brooklands was always about "the right crowd and no crowding" which essentially meant it was the ruling classes at play. And in the '30s, the British ruling classes, in the throes, remember, of the Depression, were greatly concerned about communism taking over.

A degree of BS being propagated here, I feel, in an apparent inference that "the ruling classes" of the 1930s were solely pro-Fascist and anti-communist, rather than vice versa, or something in between.

Remember that many proper chaps of distinctly "ruling class" background and education became notoriously pro-communist, and anti-Fascist, while the current anti-war (in Iraq) movement has wide public popularity so did the the pro-communist, anti-Fascist underswell of the 1930s. This was not then, and it is not today, a matter of black and white, much more a swirling matter of shades of grey.

DCN

[BRG]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
A degree of BS being propagated here, I feel, in an apparent inference that "the ruling classes" of the 1930s were solely pro-Fascist and anti-communist, rather than vice versa, or something in between.

And a degree of selective reading being propagated here perhaps as well.

There is no mention in my post that the ruling classes were solely pro-fascist and anti-communist. My point is that there was (my words) a considerable amount of sympathy. Of course, there were many of the opposite leaning - the Burgess, Philby and McLean types for instance not to mention those rather more admirable types who went off to Spain to fight for the Republican side in the Civil War.

My point is that British society was far more polarised in those days. The upper classes and upper middle classes largely inclined to the right, whilst the workers and the intelligensia leaned to the left. By and large. And the Brooklands crowd came from the former group. By and large. And there was a fair proportion of them of military backgrounds. And they tended (as they still do to this day) to be inclined further to the right than the norm. So it would seem likely that there would have been some sympathisers for the BUF at Brooklands. Whether they carried car badges, I can't say...

[bira]

Originally posted by BRG
It is to Max Mosley's credit that he has succeeded in building a career and a positive public image despite being the son of the British fascist leader. Such a heritage could have been a real mill-stone for him to bear, but he has managed to deal with it so remarkably well that his background, although public knowledge, is rarely mentioned.

One of my favourite quotes was Mosley referring to exactly that:

"There was always a certain amount of trouble [being the son of Sir Oswald] until I came into motor racing. And in one of the first races I ever took part in there was a list of people when they put the practice times up as they do. Everyone stood around looking at the times. All the competitors in that class of racing looking at the list and they came to my name and I heard somebody say, 'Mosley, Max Mosley, he must be some relation of Alf Mosley, the coachbuilder.' And I thought to myself, 'I've found a world where they don't know about Oswald Mosley.' And it has always been a bit like that in motor racing: nobody gives a darn."

More on Mosley's childhood and family: http://www.atlasf1.c...eur/okeefe.html

[schuy]

Originally posted by BRG

It is to Max Mosley's credit that he has succeeded in building a career and a positive public image despite being the son of the British fascist leader. Such a heritage could have been a real mill-stone for him to bear, but he has managed to deal with it so remarkably well that his background, although public knowledge, is rarely mentioned.

[Ray Bell]

It doesn't always work the right way...

From bira's lovely quote...

"'Mosley, Max Mosley, he must be some relation of Alf Mosley, the coachbuilder.' And I thought to myself, 'I've found a world where they don't know about Oswald Mosley.' And it has always been a bit like that in motor racing: nobody gives a darn."

On the contrary, when my nephew began racing Holden HQ sedans at Lakeside, the name 'Simpson' returned to the circuit. The Simpsons had been in the class a few years before and had outspent everyone as the father brought his son to prominence in the class.

The commentators made the assumption that young Ben was one of the family that many loved to hate. Ben, in turn, put a sign on the car, 'sponsor wanted'... and the commentators publicly derided him, asking "Why would a Simpson want a sponsor?"

[Dennis David]

Max's father was an early proponent of the single European Market(e.g. European Union).

I think that crowd would have prefered a single race as well ...

[marat]

On this subject I find strange that the son of a fascist took the place of a real fascist.
As Oswald Mosley and JM Balestre had during the war the same ideas, Max could be
Balestre's son...

[Ron Scoma]

On a related note....

I have just finished a book entitled "The Viceroy's Daughter's, The Lives of the Curzon Sisters" by Anne De Courcy.
Lord Curzon was an early motorist who married Mary Leiter whose father was a partner of Marshall Field, a department store owner of some merit in Chicago.
Their daughter Cynthia (Cimmie) Curzon was Oswald (Tom) Mosley's first wife.
Oswald Mosley eventually married Diana Guinness and produced a son, Max.
Oswald was noted as a fine and dynamic orator, proving once again that the acorn does not fall far from the tree.
Cheers,

Ron

[number36]

Ron

Diana Mitford was, as far as I know, the mother of Max Mosley. I am not sure if she had previously been married before the union with Sir Oswald.

Strangely whenever a mention is made of Oswald no mention is ever made that Max is his son. His half brother - from the Curzon side - is always named as Oswalds son.

On another point of interest I was leafing through a book on the Mitford sisters and found mention that Oswald married Diana in Dr Goebbels drawing room in Berlin. It was rumoured that a gent with the initials AH was the best man. I have not as yet confirmed this fact

[Tim Murray]

Diana Mitford's first husband was Bryan Guinness. She then married Oswald Mosley secretly in October 1936, in a house near the Reichs Chancellery in Berlin, in the presence of Josef and Magda Goebbels and Diana's sister Unity. The best man was an English ex-officer of the 10th Hussars. Hitler then threw a dinner for the newly-married couple, but was not present at the wedding.
(Source: Unity Mitford - A Quest by David Pryce-Jones)

[Wolf]

The impression I got about Mosley, from BBC show 'Mosley' ( http://us.imdb.com/Title?0140750 ), is that he was misguided patriot more than anything else and probably would have fought it, once its true nature was exposed, just as any other Brit did. But he was 'precautionary' thrown in brig. I'd welcome informed opinions on the realism of that show (or my opinion)...

[bira]

Again from the same source as above:

Max Rufus Mosley was born in 1940 to a storied family that were members of the British aristocracy. Lady Mosley, Max's mother, was born Diana Mitford, sister of the writer Nancy Mitford, and herself a lady of letters and a great beauty. Max's father was Sir Oswald Mosley, a controversial British politician who was most noteworthy as the leader of the British League of Fascists in the late 1930's.

Astonishingly, just after Max was born in 1940, both Max's father and mother were imprisoned in England for their political views under the controversial Regulation 18B, which permitted internment without the niceties of due process of "persons whose detention appears . . . to be expedient in the interests of the public safety or defense of the realm." Max's aunt, Nancy Mitford, later described the strange happenings of that era as follows: "But we were young and high spirited then and didn't know about Buchenwald."

Judging from the letters of literary lights like Evelyn Waugh in correspondence with Diana's sister, Nancy Mitford, which mentions the comings and goings of Max's parents when Max was a child, Max must have grown up in a rarefied atmosphere living under the same roof as Sir Oswald and Lady Mosley. Nancy Mitford somewhat enviously describes Sir Oswald and the family cruising the Mediterranean on the family yacht calling at Portofino and Marseille, visiting Spain and being looked after by Sir Oswald's friend, General Franco, and ultimately moving to France in 1951, when Max was 11 years old.

[...]

"When you are a child everything is natural - normal you think. It [the family's controversial nature] was always there. But you have got to remember that my father started life in politics at the age of 21, just 22, as a conservative MP, then he was a labor MP, then he was in the labor government: so he had a whole conventional political career [and] behind the scenes he was still friendly with a great many of the conventional politicians in England and so it wasn't quite like being sort of right out [of it]. The general public probably saw him as a strange person but it was a very curious thing, a strange sort of family.

"Take my mother, for example: [through family connections] Winston Churchill was more or less like an uncle to my mother. She was very, very close to Churchill. And she was friendly with Hitler as well; she was probably about the only person around who was!"

[masterhit]

I think, again, one has to say that Max is a consummate politician. If it were not for his background, given his ability, he would have risen to the very top, should he have chosen that path.

Equally Max has chosen wilfully not to take the same path as his father - an important point. Max must not be laid to trial for his father's actions.

Given his legal background and knowledge of politics, quite honestly, he has chosen an excellent career, as he gets the satisfaction without all the nonsense, baggage and bad things that goes with so called real politics.

You may not like the way that the sport is run, but quite honestly in F1, they are all hard nosed greedy bastards, so it's a bit funny to say the least to hear them calling each other greedy and whinging about the unfairness of various things. The only thing that would really truly change is the face of the person holding the baton.

[john winfield]

I was leafing through a copy of Niki Lauda's 'For the Record - My Years with Ferrari' and noted that the English translation was by Diana Mosley. I've had a copy for years and never noticed.
I think that, for some time, Oswald and Diana Mosley were severely limited in what they could publish but, presumably, translating the memoirs of motor racing champions caused no offence! I assume that Diana's german was quite good but how strong was she on the handling characteristics of the 312T? I picture Max sitting at her shoulder offering technical input. Does anybody know if this was the case?

[P. Dron]

'From reliable private information...Oswald Mosley is a masochist of the extreme type in his sexual life.'
George Orwell, 1939.

As for all that stuff about the Right Crowd all being Right, even among the Mitford sisters this was not so: there were two foaming Fascists, but there was also a revolutionary Communist. They were all quite mad, of course.

Edited by P. Dron, 05 April 2010 - 09:44.

[Sharman]

'From reliable private information...Oswald Mosley is a masochist of the extreme type in his sexual life.'
George Orwell, 1939.

As for all that stuff about the Right Crowd all being Right, even among the Mitford sisters this was not so: there were two foaming Fascists, but there was also a revolutionary Communist. They were all quite mad, of course.

Another of the sisters, Deborah became Duchess of Devonshire. She came to my house about 40 years ago as President of the Church Childrens Society, my then wife was local Branch President. She opened the car and let out her two labrador bitches which promply shat on my lawn, my own labrador bitch attacked one of them, whilst my golden retriever dog attempted to screw the other. She watched this swirling fighting copulating canine mass for a few seconds and said "Ah well that's dogs" and swept into the house. As Mr Dron so rightly says, "All mad".

Edited by Sharman, 05 April 2010 - 10:52.

[T54]

Astonishingly, just after Max was born in 1940, both Max's father and mother were imprisoned in England for their political views under the controversial Regulation 18B, which permitted internment without the niceties of due process of "persons whose detention appears . . . to be expedient in the interests of the public safety or defense of the realm." Max's aunt, Nancy Mitford, later described the strange happenings of that era as follows: "But we were young and high spirited then and didn't know about Buchenwald."

Lots of innocent Japanese-Americans were subjected to the same treatment in WW2, by other fascists then in power in the USA. Interesting that as soon as the person in charge died, both houses of Congress hastily passed a term-limits law so as to avoid to ever have the same virtual dictatorship happening again. Things HAVE got somewhat better since: it appears that nowadays you need to be caught carrying either a Soviet rocket launcher or an AK 47 to be subjected to the same treatment, while the local fascists scream your innocence and that you just happened to have picked those toys right off the ground by pure accident.
Fascist, communists, same sack of extremists joining hands at the end of the circle, and the very people who have and are causing most of the mess we live in today.
So Mosley father and son exercised devious sexual practices besides their devious professional lives, what a surprise.
But they are of course not guilty, because it was their "private lives" and gave such a great example of themselves in their public lives.

[Vitesse2]

Lots of innocent Japanese-Americans were subjected to the same treatment in WW2, by other fascists then in power in the USA.

Not the same thing at all. Rightly or wrongly (and admittedly mostly wrongly), the Japanese-Americans were classed as "enemy aliens" due to their ethnicity. Mosley and most of the others who were detained under 18b were white British citizens who were considered to be security risks. By that time virtually all German and Austrian citizens in the UK had already been interned: lots of them were innocent too - many were refugees from Nazism - but it was easier to (as Churchill put it) "collar the lot" and sort them out afterwards. Which was done.

It could be argued that the detention of innocent Japanese-Americans may have saved them from a much worse fate. I was looking at UK press reports about the entry of Italy into the war in 1940 - Italian-owned businesses were attacked within minutes of Mussolini's announcement and there were full-blown anti-Italian riots in several British cities. As the war continued I suspect the fact that Japanese-Americans looked different would have singled them out for revenge.

[maoricar]

It is possible that interning Diana Mosley whilst her children had to be placed in care of her sister, had at least some effect upon those children, probably negative.
The earliest childhood years are those recognised to be when almost all cognitive development takes place. To be deprived of one's parents at such a time, albeit, Mosley parents, cannot have been healthy.
No-one has ever suggested that either Oswald or Diana were bad parents and it is probably fair to say that their children have had successful and productive lives.

Given the dreadful up-bringing of the Mitford children, it is little wonder that several of the sisters formed relationships with men that were, by most standards, somewhat odd (the men !!)
And several of the sisters espoused political views that were, to say the least, out of the mainstream for their times. However ALL of the sisters that remained living into the 60's and beyond, became successdful authors, best sellers even.

As for Deborah, the Dowager, I too have had the pleasure of meeting her, all too briefly, and found her to be most gracious and quite down to earth. Without her imagination and untiring works it is very doubtful that her (late) husband's family seat would have survived intact. I'm not sure if it's a plus or a minus, but she was certainly a great friend to, and favorite of, the Kennedy family.

So Max, is Max. Formed in part due to family persecution by the British government in part by his father's extreme political views, and I'm sure in part by the odd and unconventional Mitfords..Jessica, Unity and Nancy

[john winfield]

Mosleys and Mitfords; always interesting! Just to return to the reason I revived this thread, does anyone know whether Max and his mother worked together on the Niki Lauda book? Or did William Kimber have someone clued up on motor sport to help with the technical aspects?

[LOTI]

Just a thought....
Perhaps it was another Diana Mosley. While I am sure Max's mother managed reasonable conversational german I doubt, given their well documented lack of schooling, that it would have been up to translating books..... and why would she?
I agree that Deborah has been the most wonderful chatelaine for Chatsworth, eccentric, yes, but devoted to her job.
I like eccentric..... in this grey and dismal world a little oddity it good.
There were two other sisters, so far no mentioned, Unity, who tried to kill herself when was was declared, perhaps the maddest, or perhaps the saddest and with an attention seeking gene which completely missed Pamela, who managed to pass under the radar by simply keeping her head down.

[P. Dron]

Just a thought....
Perhaps it was another Diana Mosley. While I am sure Max's mother managed reasonable conversational german I doubt, given their well documented lack of schooling, that it would have been up to translating books..... and why would she?
I agree that Deborah has been the most wonderful chatelaine for Chatsworth, eccentric, yes, but devoted to her job.
I like eccentric..... in this grey and dismal world a little oddity it good.
There were two other sisters, so far no mentioned, Unity, who tried to kill herself when was was declared, perhaps the maddest, or perhaps the saddest and with an attention seeking gene which completely missed Pamela, who managed to pass under the radar by simply keeping her head down.

No, it was not another Diana Mosley, but it is probable that someone with some technical knowledge assisted. As for Pamela, she was quite famous for keeping her head down.

[maoricar]

Lack of schooling does not, always, indicate lack of either knowledge or intellect.
Several of the Mitford sisters were fluent in other languages. Nancy at least completed a number of book translations.
I have no doubt, given her son's area(s) of interest, that Diana would have had few problems in this area

[T54]

Not the same thing at all. Rightly or wrongly (and admittedly mostly wrongly), the Japanese-Americans were classed as "enemy aliens" due to their ethnicity.

Yes, I can see how that is really different.

It could be argued that the detention of innocent Japanese-Americans may have saved them from a much worse fate.

And this would have been?

[David Birchall]

Oswald and Diana Mosley were incarcerated because they were a threat to national security. There was no question then and there should be none now--I suggest reading "The Mitford Sisters" for a full insight. Diana's sister Unity was so obsessed with Hitler that she shot herself when war was declared by Britain. Churchill was their uncle...

[Vitesse2]

And this would have been?

The clue was in the word "ethnicity". For example.

[2F-001]

... Churchill was their uncle...

Not really; one of the other Mitford sisters married a man who was a "nephew-by-marriage" of Churchill (actually the son of his sister-in-law). Although he might possibly have been regarded with a similar status within the families, he could surely be described only by the most informal of interpretations as an uncle to that daughter's siblings?
(Coincidentally, didn't another of the sisters marry a "nephew-by-marriage" of another PM-to-be -- Harold Macmillan?)

Edited by 2F-001, 06 April 2010 - 20:49.

[T54]

The clue was in the word "ethnicity".

That's giving very little credit to the judgment of the average American. A bit demeaning if you ask me. There are whack jobs everywhere, look at Mosley as a good example, but most people are good and would not have done what you say they would. Example: American-Germans in WW1 and WW2 were not assaulted by an angry populace. I do not see any reason why the very pacific Japanese-American population would have been assaulted either. People then were certainly not as mean as they are today.

Edited by T54, 07 April 2010 - 22:15.

[john winfield]

Just a thought....
Perhaps it was another Diana Mosley. While I am sure Max's mother managed reasonable conversational german I doubt, given their well documented lack of schooling, that it would have been up to translating books..... and why would she?
I agree that Deborah has been the most wonderful chatelaine for Chatsworth, eccentric, yes, but devoted to her job.
I like eccentric..... in this grey and dismal world a little oddity it good.
There were two other sisters, so far no mentioned, Unity, who tried to kill herself when was was declared, perhaps the maddest, or perhaps the saddest and with an attention seeking gene which completely missed Pamela, who managed to pass under the radar by simply keeping her head down.

Hi Loti. I wondered at first but I'm sure it is her. She translated some Goethe as well so her German must have been pretty good.

OT, but do you remember posting on an Earl Howe thread some time ago pointing out the complexities of the Sally (Curzon) family tree? I've just realised that, before Diana Mitford / Guinness, Oswald Mosley was married to Cynthia Curzon, a distant cousin of Sally and her father, Earl Howe. This must make Sally and Max Mosley virtually brother and sister! Well, not quite.

[LOTI]

Both Sal's mother and father were married 4 times [as far as I can remember] so plenty of connections there.
Was Dorothy Macmillan not the connection to both Churchill and Cavendish [Devonshire]. I am far too lazy to look it up.

[2F-001]

Dorothy (neé Cavendish) - Harold Macmillan's wife - was the daughter of the 9th Duke (of Devonshire); Deborah Mitford (that's Max Mosley's Aunt - just to keep things vaguely on-subject) married the 11th Duke. I can't fathom the link with Churchill, although given the labyrinthine inter-connections between the aristocratic families, there quite possibly is one.

[David Birchall]

Here is the answer-well maybe, I think:

Clementine Churchill's mother was Lady (Henrietta) Blanche Ogilvy (1852-1925), the second wife of Sir Henry Montague Hozier and a daughter of the 7th Earl of Airlie. The identity of her father, however, is open to healthy debate. Lady Blanche was well known for sharing her sexual favors and was eventually divorced as a result. She maintained that Clementine's father was Capt. William George "Bay" Middleton, a noted horseman. But Clementine Churchill's biographer Joan Hardwick has surmised that all Lady Blanche's "Hozier" children were actually fathered by her sister Clementine's husband, Algernon Bertram Freeman-Mitford (1837-1916, better known as a grandfather of the infamous Mitford sisters of the 1920s).

[2F-001]

Ah - thank you David.
I'd overlooked the Mitfords' Grandmother being an Ogilvy.
At risk of boring everyone else to tears, I *think* that makes Diana Mitford's Great Aunt also Clementine Churchill's Mother, and thus Max Mosley's Great Great Aunt would be Winston Churchill's Mother-in-Law.

Hardwick's assertions (which I was unaware of) would, if correct, make Max Mosley's Great Grandfather also Winston's "father-in-law" (something of a misnomer since the connection would be via an "illegitimate" child). Is that correct? That may possibly have some implication for the discouraged marriage of Diana's sister Jessica to Esmond Romilly (Clementine Churchill's nephew) - but that, and the Macmillan connection, are beyond the endurance and agility of my mental processes for now!

(This is all becoming very complicated - and, frankly, arcane – but I'm ready to be corrected on any of the foregoing!).

Edited by 2F-001, 08 April 2010 - 09:00.