12 replies to this topic

[Vitesse2]

The 1940 Targa Florio, run on the Favorita Park circuit in Palermo, was the last major event to take place in Europe after the start of World War II. Sheldon has a full result, but is missing the entry numbers - not unusual for events of the time.

However, in Venables' "Racing 1500s" there is a picture of some of the cars lined up in front of the pits. Identification is difficult, if not impossible, since all the entries were Maseratis and all but four of those were 6CMs! From front to back, the cars visible in the picture are numbered 24, 20, 28, 14, 38, 26, 12 and 32. Venables says 20 is Platé's car, 24 Ascari's and 14 Rovere's. The first two I can believe, but Rovere does not appear in Sheldon's results. And Venables says very little about the the race - can anyone add to his report or to that in Sheldon? What was Venables' source for the caption naming Rovere, who, according to Sheldon, wasn't even there? Entry list anybody?

In addition, one of the cars, number 12, is very obviously a different colour, ie not red. It's much lighter in colour, but doesn't appear to be white. Yellow perhaps, but it doesn't look bright enough for that. Maybe even pale blue .....

Now obviously, as it was essentially an Italian national race, there's nothing to say that all the cars should be red but ....

[Vitesse2]

I've found a picture of the start of this race. A light-coloured car is clearly visible here too. If the grid in Sheldon is correct, then it appears to be Brezzi in a Scuderia Torino car.



But, according to the site it came from, there were fifteen starters, with Brezzi a non-starter!. Sheldon says sixteen, while the limited reports I've seen say Brezzi crashed. Might he have crashed before the start? In which case, who's in the light-coloured car?

http://www.targaflorio.info/31.htm

Curiouser and curiouser ....

[Vitesse2]

Well, thanks to some help from Alessandro Silva, I can now say that the picture in Venables is not 1940, but 1938. The mysterious light coloured car #12 is de Teffé's yellow Maserati. It might also be the one on the right here:



So - is the start picture above actually 1940? If so, whose is the light coloured car? If not - is it also 1938? Or has Sheldon got the 1939 grid the wrong way round, in which case the light coloured car is Pietsch's white one!

And I'll ask again - has anyone got the race numbers for 1940?

[uechtel]

I don´t think, that Pietsch used a white car any more in 1939. Accordingly to my knowledge he had become "offical" works driver (Scuderia Torino) and usually drove a red 6CM, while his former white 4CM was taken over by Leonhard Joa, who drove it until 1948.

About the start picture: 1940 seems unlikely to me, too, as in this case I would have expected to see 4CL models in the first row. So looks very much like 1938 to me, too, and in this case the bright car might indeed have been Pietsch, de Teffe or even "Georges Raph".

But if we are not sure about the date of the picture, how sure is the place?

[GIGLEUX]

The Targa 1939 occured just one week after Tripoli which was something like a disaster for the 4 CLs; so no 4 CLS at Palermo Park. Rocco out, Villoresi and Trossi out with some damage to the engines and only 7 days between the two races, so for the Targa the older 6 CMs were used. Nevertheless, Markus, you are right as the 1939 6 CMs had a body similar to the one of 4 CLs.

[alessandro silva]

Originally posted by uechtel
I don´t think, that Pietsch used a white car any more in 1939. Accordingly to my knowledge he had become "offical" works driver (Scuderia Torino) and usually drove a red 6CM, while his former white 4CM was taken over by Leonhard Joa, who drove it until 1948.

Not really. In Bern, for instance Pietsch's 6CM with 4CL engine was silver (or white?).
The pictures posted by Richard are definitely not from 1940.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
The Targa 1939 occured just one week after Tripoli which was something like a disaster for the 4 CLs; so no 4 CLS at Palermo Park. Rocco out, Villoresi and Trossi out with some damage to the engines and only 7 days between the two races, so for the Targa the older 6 CMs were used. Nevertheless, Markus, you are right as the 1939 6 CMs had a body similar to the one of 4 CLs.

Jean-Maurice, my remark refers to 1940 (not 1939), as this is the year given for the picture. In this year I would have expected the 4CLs of Rocco, Cortese and Villoresi at the front row, so the picture can´t be 1940.

Originally posted by alessandro silva

Not really. In Bern, for instance Pietsch's 6CM with 4CL engine was silver (or white?).
The pictures posted by Richard are definitely not from 1940.

Just to be sure, as this is completely new to me: For 1939 Sheldon says Pietsch drove a 6CM entered by the Maserati factory (Hence I would expect nothing else but a red car). Are you sure you don´t mismatch this with 1938 when he indeed drove his own 4CM-engined 6CM (4CM 1937), which was of course silver?

[alessandro silva]

Originally posted by uechtel

Just to be sure, as this is completely new to me: For 1939 Sheldon says Pietsch drove a 6CM entered by the Maserati factory (Hence I would expect nothing else but a red car). Are you sure you don´t mismatch this with 1938 when he indeed drove his own 4CM-engined 6CM (4CM 1937), which was of course silver?

Cimarosti GP Suisse pages 146/147. Self-entered Pietsch's car c/n given as 1560, which I believe is correct, engine # 1574, in first row, white or silver. Joa's car (white or silver) in third row.

[GIGLEUX]

Realized just after sending, that I was not on the right year. Excuse me!

[uechtel]

Originally posted by alessandro silva



Cimarosti GP Suisse pages 146/147. Self-entered Pietsch's car c/n given as 1560, which I believe is correct, engine # 1574, in first row, white or silver. Joa's car (white or silver) in third row.

Looks quite convincing. Thank you.

But then what car is Joa´s? "Das Auto" (issue of 1948) writes, that he has taken over Pietsch´s car and slavaged it during the war. Also pictures of the car look quite identical




Joa at Hockenheim in 1947.




Pietsch German GP 1938



Is that the same car?

[alessandro silva]

Yes it is the same car.
Joa purchased Pietsch's 1938 works car (usually painted in silver/white) for the 1939 season. It was a 4CM c/n 1553 completed on 21/12/1937, original engine # 1552.
During 1939 Pietsch used the 6CM c/n 1560, sometimes with 4CL engine (# 1574 as ascribed by Cimarosti, although I am not sure) and the 6CM c/n 1565 with 6CM engine but also with 4CL engine 1568. The latter car was red, whereas for the first one I have only the photo which I have send you, showing it in silver livery.

BTW, Markus. Do you have some background information on Joa?

[uechtel]

Alessandro, thanx for clearing that!

Sorry, not really much info on Joa´s person, only a portrait picture



Also in Molter´s book there is some text about how he found to his car again after the war:

"Joa had found his racing car after his coming back from imprisonment literally a wreck in the woods. The inhabitants of the surroundings had used the parts of the car for different purposes. A farmer for his car, with which he drove to his acres. Like a detective Joa scoured the country until he had gathered all the parts again, sometimes for a large sum of money. The car had been put into the woods by a tragic episode. When the Americans had marched into Germany one of the officers had found this racing car in a garage and had ordered to make it ready for driving. He drove too fast, rolled over several times in a curve and was badly injured. His men, furious about this dangerous car, pulled it into the woods and used it as a target for their colts. Poor Joa was running with glue and linen attempting to mend all the holes."

It seems, that Joa had to retire from racing, when the engine of his car was damaged beyond repair at the Hockenheim race of 1948.

[ranocchio61]

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