20 replies to this topic

[Japan Time]

From 1989 to 1991 Formula 1 came to Phoenix, Arizona, to run a street race in the city's downtown area. Even though the circuit was not very interesting from a technical point-of-view, I remember having seen some really good racing there (qualification as well as races) every year.


photo: 8W


photo: F1 Rejects

In a sense I think it was much more fun than "tasteless" racing that was provided on the Brickyard in Indianapolis since 2000 - but there is room for controversy, I think.

[Jhope]

going OT a bit, it's funny how the new Dallara IRL car strikes a similar resemblence to the Tyrell in the above photo's.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Jhope
going OT a bit, it's funny how the new Dallara IRL car strikes a similar resemblence to the Tyrell in the above photo's.

I think it's the sort of bump that accommodates most of the cockpit that's similar.


I was in Phoenix in 2000, and walked most of what remains of the circuit - one end of it's covered by the new convention center/baseball stadium. To call it Grand Prix racing in the grand sense is definitely wrong - it really was point'n'squirt with lots of blind 90-degree corners, on pretty rough road surfaces. Monaco it ain't.

It's a pity Phoenix couldn't make a GP work - it's a car town, it's got a relatively active resort/holiday scene in Scottsdale a few miles to the NE, and the climate - at the right time of year anyway - is pretty damn good. Had they held the race at an extended version of Firebird down in Chandler or something, maybe they could've made a go of it - but a street race on those streets? No way.

[Japan Time]

Petefenelon: I definitely do agree with you on the fact that Phoenix was no appropriate circuit for Formula 1.

Yet I still think the races we saw there had something very exciting - unlike Monaco, where overtaking is terribly difficult, and where races can get somewhat boring.

Maybe this is due to the fact that such an un-characteristic circuit was allowing a kind of "re-shuffle" between teams, drivers, tyres, V8/V10/V12 motors ?

What made it so special (well... if you also consider there was something special in it, of course) in your opinon ?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Japan Time
Petefenelon: I definitely do agree with you on the fact that Phoenix was no appropriate circuit for Formula 1.

Yet I still think the races we saw there had something very exciting - unlike Monaco, where overtaking is terribly difficult, and where races can get somewhat boring.

Maybe this is due to the fact that such an un-characteristic circuit was allowing a kind of "re-shuffle" between teams, drivers, tyres, V8/V10/V12 motors ?

What made it so special (well... if you also consider there was something special in it, of course) in your opinon ?

I find Monaco fascinating just because of the sheer challenge of the place... The battle between Alesi and Senna at Phoenix, and Pierluigi Martini's excellent qualifying position on Pirelli gumballs, are really my only positive memories of the races there.

Remember of course that Phoenix was the season-opening race in '90 and '91 - so the season hadn't had time to settle down yet. That always adds a certain interest to a race wherever it is.

(I seem to be accumulating defunct US GP street circuits on business trips, having recently been to Detroit - wonder if I'll end up having to go to Dallas, Vegas and Long Beach?;))

[No27]

For what or who stands the big C in red square on front of the Tyrrell?

[the moon monkey]

The "big C" was a logo for Nippon Shinpan, one of Tyrrell's sponsors.

Here is a pic of Derek Warwick at Phoenix.

http://uk.geocities....k/phoenix89.jpg

[jonpollak]

A friend of mine RayHammett suggested we drive out from LA that hot weekend in '89.
We arrived and bought "GA" ticket and stood on 2 cheap coolers we bought at Pic'nSave

I remember cutting holes in the cardboard fence covers to see various parts of the track.

We also thought.."Well, they will never come back here again"
WRONG...

The next year '90, we did a proper reconnaissance and worked out how to sneak into the paddock and then the pits.
(believe it or not, all I did was combine a little Quebecois and Spanish to baffle the security guard on the paddock gate...)
He realised I was "SERIOUS" and that 'my job depended on getting in'...(fool)
We strolled around like kings, had lunch in the Ligier paddock, trolled the rooftop paddock club,etc.
Outrageous really when you think what it is like today!!!!
Next year '91, I actually blagged an accreditation and walked around unfettered and unworried by my previous fraudulent access.


I was lucky enough to take this picture of 'Gash' in the first Jordan as it hit the track in Pre-Qualifying


http://www.forix.com...0&r=9101032&c=0

a little piece of hisory..
Ahh yes...
Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 28 March 2016 - 13:52.

[911]

I went to the USGP in '89 & '91. The configuration used in '89 & '90 was definitely boring w/ too many 90 degree corners. However, I thought they did a much better job changing the track in '91. I think Senna qualified on pole w/ an average speed of 102 mph. That's not too bad for a street circuit (1991).

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by 911
I went to the USGP in '89 & '91. The configuration used in '89 & '90 was definitely boring w/ too many 90 degree corners. However, I thought they did a much better job changing the track in '91. I think Senna qualified on pole w/ an average speed of 102 mph. That's not too bad for a street circuit (1991).

If I remember rightly they shortened the circuit slightly by getting rid of one set of 90-degree turns round a block and made a fast-ish long sweeper towards the end of the lap didn't they?

pete

[fines]

Originally posted by petefenelon


If I remember rightly they shortened the circuit slightly by getting rid of one set of 90-degree turns round a block and made a fast-ish long sweeper towards the end of the lap didn't they?

pete

That sweeper was rather at the far end of the circuit.

[Bart]

My memory of watching one of the Phoenix races (on TV, sadly) was somebody stalled in the middle of the racetrack after one of the blind corners and the marshalling was dreadful -- nobody was warning the drivers of the hazard. I think it was 1991, and I remember thinking at the time what an amateurish organizational job was being done and how this would be the end of F1 there.

For all its problems, at least Phoenix was better than the Las Vegas car park.

[Japan Time]

Bart: wasn't it Gachot in the new Jordan by chance ?

Another pic from the start in 1991:


http://www.pirro.com/images/0057/in-hot-arizo-2.jpg

[Garagiste]

Can I be the first to mention the Ostriches then?

[lanciaman]

I heard Cheever say Phoenix was miserable- terribly hot, rotten circuit. He marveled at the idea that moving the USGP from the parking lot at Caesar's to Phoenix in summer was thought to be an improvement.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by lanciaman
I heard Cheever say Phoenix was miserable- terribly hot, rotten circuit. He marveled at the idea that moving the USGP from the parking lot at Caesar's to Phoenix in summer was thought to be an improvement.

...and Eddie was born there ;)

pete

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Japan Time
Bart: wasn't it Gachot in the new Jordan by chance ?

Another pic from the start in 1991:
http://www.pirro.com/images/0057/in-hot-arizo-2.jpg

Just as an off-topic aside, Pirro's is just about the best website I've ever seen for a driver - lots of information about him and his career, a good design, and a real feeling that he actually does care about it and takes an interest in what's put on it!

pete

[Mark A]

Originally posted by Japan Time
Bart: wasn't it Gachot in the new Jordan by chance ?

Another pic from the start in 1991:


http://www.pirro.com/images/0057/in-hot-arizo-2.jpg

Maybe not the circuit but doesn't that picture make you wish we were back in 1991, wish we had grids that size today. I counted 18? cars in the picture and the top teams are out of shot already.

[Japan Time]

Mark: a very right comment indeed. It was far more challenging
to have 26 cars battling for the first 6 positions than 20 for the
first 8...

If Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Renault, Toyota, Jaguar entered a
third car in next year's races, the field would look less empty...

Result would be 26 cars at the start of each race, and more
challengers for victory/podium than ever. Oh - but of course there
would be a big risk of having "1-2-3 Ferrari" podiums...

[jm70]

I lived in Phoenix at that time and was involved with the SCCA. A few points that come to mind.
The City of Phoenix spent a great deal of money supporting the F1 race, taxpayer money, if you will. I think the best draw was around 30,000 paid. At the same time, during the race week, tickets went on sale for the first Winston Cup race at PIR. 65,000 were sold that week. Buddy Jobe of PIR had no taxpayer involvment, and in fact it took many years to get improved access to PIR. At the time there was no bridge over the Salt River, and if it happened to be up, one had to drive a long way through the Indian Reservation to find the back entrance to PIR.
At the end of the contract with Bernie, there was no great pressure to spend more money when you could draw more spectators with no investment.
Seems logical to me.

[holiday]

Great Phoenix on track action:

http://www.anktech.de/

-> formel1 videos
-> last video at bottom (Video Nr. 1) with Prost overtaking both Piquet and Alesi 1991