49 replies to this topic

[Stefan Ornerdal]

I have received this e-mail question, has anyone heard of this driver?

"I was directed to your excellent [ ]Le Mans site to do some research on someone
reputed to have been a Le Mans driver. I now think he may have been in the
French Grand Prix held at Le Mans in either 1920 or 1921 (or possibly one
about 6 years earlier?) My only information is some old newspaper articles
which say when he married (in 1921) that he had been a Le Mans driver. His
name was Comte Frederick Jacques de Janze. Do you happen to have any
information on these races that would indicate whether he was a driver?"
Louise Miller Frost
South Australia


Stefan

[Vitesse2]

The name doesn't occur in Sheldon Vol 1. The nearest is a chap called Henny de Joncy, but he doesn't appear until 1924.

Perhaps he used a "nom de course"? There's a "Celerier" in the 1921 Coupe des Voiturettes and the GP de l'UMF and a number of drivers identified only by what may or may not be surnames in various events run at Le Mans both pre- and post WW1.

[O Volante]

Surely the
Comte Frédéric de Janzé
is meant:
De Janzé was the first husband of Alice Silverthorne, a quite wealthy heiress from Chicago, Ill., USA (mar. 1922, div. 1927), who was later to become Mrs. Raymond de Trafford (mar. 1932). During the 1920s and 1930s, Alice and her respective husbands lived in Kenya, and belonged to the notorious "Happy Valley" set - nowadays best remembered for the affair surrounding the (at least officially!) still unsolved murder of Lord Erroll in 1941.
A reasonable account of the Erroll scandal is given in James Fox' 1982 book "White Mischief" (based on it, there was later also a movie with the same title), including some info about the persons involved. However, apparently de Janzé himself has also written down some memories of his times in Kenya - the book is titled "Vertical Island".
If my memory is correct, I read a long time ago that Frédéric de Janzé also drabbled with cars: so, if there is a fellow with this (or a rather similar name) in the records of early Le Mans or French races in general, I would think this is the man!

[millerfroost]

Hi - yes this is the same man. Are you able to tell me some sources where I might track down his involvement in car racing? I am writign a biography of his wife and am having some difficulty confirming details from some early newspaper clippings, which list him as being a "Le Mans driver", but i am unsure whether they actually meant Le Mans, or the 1920 / 1921 French F1 at Le Mans, or something entirely different. I also wondered about nom de plumes - someone called Chavee drove with André Pisard, a 2-liter Chenard-Walcker into fourth place at the 1924 Le Mans 24 Heures. Was this the same man?

I appreciate any assistance of suggestions you can give me.

Louise Miller Frost
South Australia

[Vitesse2]

Do you have dates for these cuttings Louise? As the 24 Hour race didn't start until 1923, I would assume they are from the later 20s.

Just to clear the decks, in addition to the 24 Hours, there were a number of race meetings held on courses identified as "Le Mans". The major races are:

26-7 June 1906 Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France

9 September 1912 Coupe de la Sarthe

4 August 1913 Grand Prix de l'UMF Cyclecars

5 August 1913 Grand Prix de France

5 August 1913 Coupe de la Sarthe

28 August 1920 Grand Prix de l'UMF Cyclecars

29 August 1920 Coupe des Voiturettes

26 July 1921 Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France

17 September 1921 Grand Prix de l'UMF Cyclecars

18 September 1921 Coupe des Voiturettes

16 September 1922 Grand Prix de l'UMF Cyclecars

17 September 1922 Coupe des Voiturettes

23 September 1923 Grand Prix de l'UMF Cyclecars

23 September 1923 Coupe des Voiturettes

However, your man might have taken part in a minor support race at one of these .....

We have a thread here on "Noms de course", which I've checked through, but can't see any likely candidates - sorry!

Best source is the one I've used to compile that list: "A record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing Vol 1 1900-1925" by Paul Sheldon. Like I said above, his name isn't there, but that doesn't mean he didn't race! I'll check the next volume as well and try to come up with a list of possible "noms de course" which others might be able to expand on.

[millerfroost]

Thanks for the very prompt reply! In retrospect, I am not sure if these articles were written at the time of their marriage (1921) or later when all the drama began. I will check and get back to you on that.

however, he was born around 1900, so a lot of these races were during his childhood. He was married in 1921 and I guess I assumed he raced prior to that, but they moved to kenya pretty much full time late 1925/1926 so it would definitely be before that.

As I was typing nom de plume, I knew it was wrong - but is there any way to check on the real identities of those who assumed nom de course?

Any suggestions gratefully received!

Louise Miller Frost

[Vitesse2]

Okay, we can ignore the pre-1920 events then. Plus anyone who also appears in post-1926 events: that narrows it down quite a bit. Most of the drivers in that period are identifiable, so it should be quite a short list (I hope).

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by O Volante
Surely the
Comte Frédéric de Janzé
is meant:
De Janzé was the first husband of Alice Silverthorne, a quite wealthy heiress from Chicago, Ill., USA (mar. 1922, div. 1927), who was later to become Mrs. Raymond de Trafford (mar. 1932). During the 1920s and 1930s, Alice and her respective husbands lived in Kenya, and belonged to the notorious "Happy Valley" set - nowadays best remembered for the affair surrounding the (at least officially!) still unsolved murder of Lord Erroll in 1941.
A reasonable account of the Erroll scandal is given in James Fox' 1982 book "White Mischief" (based on it, there was later also a movie with the same title), including some info about the persons involved. However, apparently de Janzé himself has also written down some memories of his times in Kenya - the book is titled "Vertical Island".
If my memory is correct, I read a long time ago that Frédéric de Janzé also drabbled with cars: so, if there is a fellow with this (or a rather similar name) in the records of early Le Mans or French races in general, I would think this is the man!

Interesting. Serial adulterer, near-bankrupt, MP and car nut Alan Clark's dad (art historian and collector Lord Kenneth Clark (often known as "Lord Clark of Civilisation" after his TV series of the same name!)) married Countess Nolwen de Janzé after he was widowed. I'm assuming there must be some connection? Proof that the racing world's fairly small I guess.

[Marcor]

I'm far from home but I can tell you that Joseph Chavée was a Belgian driver and car dealer from Brussels in the post-WW1. He was linked with Chenard & Walcker, Sénéchal, Delahaye, ...

He competed mainly in Belgium and also in France (Le Mans 24-Hours, Routes Pavées, Boulogne...).

And about de Janze, please wait some days, I hope to find something about him when I will be back at home.

[Vitesse2]

Thanks Marc. I was hoping you and/or Jimmy would spot this one. In the mean time, I'll continue on the same course ....

[millerfroost]

Thanks everyone, I wait with anticipation for the results!! And yes, Nolwen de Janze was Frederic de Janze's eldest daughter. Sir Kenneth Clark was her third husband. I was not aware of the Alan Clark link.

Louise Miller Frost
South Australia

[Vitesse2]

There only seem to be four "possibles" among drivers in the 24 Hours:

Flaud - appears only in 1923.

Migeot - appears in 1923 and 1924. However, this seems to be a surname which occurs in the Le Mans area.

Alcain - appears only in 1924.

"Stalter" - the most frequent. Drove for Lorraine-Dietrich 1923-6, finishing every year, including two third places, in 1925-6. Then, apparently, nothing .....

[Marcor]

Other Le Mans "race" : Le Grand Prix de consommation, 22 May 1921 (economy run).


Stalter appears in 1931 and 1932 in some French hillclimbs:
2 August 1931, Lisieux Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich, in the entry list
24 April 1932, Le Camps Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich, class winner + 5 L Sport
8 May 1932, Quissaines Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich 8 L, class winner + 3 L Sport
15 May 1932, Pont-Réan Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich, class winner 5 L Sport (or + 5 L Sport)
5 June 1932, Ars Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich, class winner, + 3 L Sport.

[millerfroost]

Fascinating - is there any way of finding out who these people might have been? Or are they well researched and unknown nom de course? Frederic de Janze died in 1933 in USA but I have been unable to find out whether he lived there for a while or whether he was on holidays there (his second wife was also American). So it is possible that he might have continued his driving career.

Any suggestions where I can follow this up from here? Are there any photos, driver descriptions etc that I could compare with?

Louise Miller Frost
South Australia

[Hans Etzrodt]

Marc - a few questions:

1 - Le Camps Hillclimb on 24 April 1932, is that the same event as 4 km Camp near Marseille (1922-1931)?
2 - Quissaines Hillclimb on 8 May 1932, do you know the location or nearest town and course length?
3 - Pont-Réan Hillclimb on 15 May 1932, I have the same questions as for #2.
4 - Ars Hillclimb: is this located S/W outside Metz? Is the course length the same as for 1933, 1934 and 1947 events and what is the course length?

[Vitesse2]

Another bit of circumstantial evidence: the index to Brian Laban's recent Le Mans book refers to "Stalter, Fred". In the text that points to on page 51, he is merely "Stalter", which would seem to indicate some last-minute sub-editing after the index had been compiled. Odd!

Stalter drove only Lorraine-Dietrichs, it would seem. However, Lorraine-Dietrich withdrew from racing after 1926 so after that date any L-D raced/hillclimbed would be a private entry. It also means, of course, that Stalter's disappearance might be due to the team's demise rather than any other cause.

So, next question would be: might de Janzé have been back in Europe by 1931?

[Vitesse2]

A search at LAT for Stalter brings up just one picture, of the 1923 start. Can't post it here, but this is a link to it

http://www.latphoto.co.uk/*2PV_033508

The caption would seem to have been copied from the original. Note the typo "Dlaud" for "Flaud".

Dennis David posted this picture a while back. It shows the 1926 Lorraine Dietrich team - Stalter's car is the one at the back!

[Marcor]

1)- Course de côte du CAMPS, 24 April 1932, time and average speed of winner Canin: 2 m 18 s, 104.347 km/h, so it was 4 km. Event organised by the newspaper Marseille-Matin, previously organised by the AC of Marseille, who had abandoned to do it. So I concludes it was the same event..., the proof, Tony Canin was said to have achieved a new record !

2)- Course de côte de Quissaines, 8 May 1932 or more probably Thursday 5 May, Ascension Day, organised by the Montluçon Section of the AC du Centre. Location: RN 145, Road from Montluçon to Guéret, 1.500 km. FL = Boucher (Bugatti), 42 s 3/5, avs 126.76 km/h.

3)- Course de côte de Pont-Réan, 15 May 1932, included in the Whit meeting of the ACO (also course de côte de Laval, Whith Monday), also organised in 1924 (9 June). I'm almost sure it was also known in an other name (the nearest town !).

4)- Course de côte d'Ars - La Châtre, 5 June 1932, near Châteauroux, length 1.300 km.

[millerfroost]

Yes, it is entirely possible de Janze was back in Europe in 1931, for at least part if not all of the year. He had family lands in France.

Thanks for the picture - bit difficult to tell if the man in the back car looks like him or not!!!!

Louise Miller Frost
South Australia

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by millerfroost
Yes, it is entirely possible de Janze was back in Europe in 1931, for at least part if not all of the year. He had family lands in France.

Where? I'm hoping you'll say somewhere close to Clermont Ferrand .....

Originally posted by millerfroost
3)- Course de côte de Pont-Réan, 15 May 1932, included in the Whit meeting of the ACO (also course de côte de Laval, Whith Monday), also organised in 1924 (9 June). I'm almost sure it was also known in an other name (the nearest town !).

Marc, there are several places called Pont-Réan. Might it be this one near La Cellette? From the map, it looks possible - look at the road from La Cellette!

http://www.multimap....=&pc=&advanced=

[O Volante]

According to the French heraldic record the de Janzés were originally from Brittany ...

[Ray Bell]

Louise has become right proficient in a short time, hasn't she?

Managing to post as Marc is a pretty good trick...

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Marcor
1)- Course de côte du CAMPS, 24 April 1932...
2)- Course de côte de Quissaines, 8 May 1932...
3)- Course de côte de Pont-Réan, 15 May 1932...
4)- Course de côte d'Ars - La Châtre, 5 June 1932...

Marc - Thanks a lot.

[Marcor]

Pont-Réan: near RENNES (Brittany).

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Marcor
Stalter appears in 1931 and 1932 in some French hillclimbs:
2 August 1931, Lisieux Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich, in the entry list
24 April 1932, Le Camps Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich, class winner + 5 L Sport
8 May 1932, Quissaines Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich 8 L, class winner + 3 L Sport
15 May 1932, Pont-Réan Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich, class winner 5 L Sport (or + 5 L Sport)
5 June 1932, Ars Hillclimb, Lorraine-Dietrich, class winner, + 3 L Sport.

Well, whoever Stalter was, he seems to have got around a lot of France in a very short time.

At the end of April he's in Marseille, two weeks later he's in the centre of the country near Montlucon, the week after that he's in Brittany, then three weeks later he's back in the centre of France again.

[millerfroost]

Yes, I noticed that I had suddenly become very proficient as well!!!

The ancestral home of the de Janzes is called Parfondeval and the address is in Londinieres. My French geography is very sketchy and i am afraid I have not got around to looking this up yet.

Is this meaning anything to anyone?

By the way, he was quite wealthy so getting around France would not be a problem - I don't believe he was employed as such. I guess motor racing required a lot of money, particularly in those days??

Louise

[Geoff E]

Londinieres is about 15miles ESE of Dieppe.

[Marcor]

Mr and Mrs Stalter were in the entry list of the 1933 Orléans meeting. Mrs took part in a rallye, finishing 8th and driving a 15 HP Lorraine-Dietrich Touring car. As for Mister, he finished 2nd in the Sport race, class 1 for cars over 2 L, driving a 15 HP Lorraine-Dietrich. The date: the week-end of May 28th.

My source: the newspaper "LE JOURNAL" who supported the meeting. Stalter was said to be a member of the AC du Centre.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by millerfroost
.....By the way, he was quite wealthy so getting around France would not be a problem - I don't believe he was employed as such. I guess motor racing required a lot of money, particularly in those days??

Particularly when you consider the cost of an average car in Europe along with the normal wages...

But the cost of competing, per se, would not have been as high as today.

[millerfroost]

There was a second Mrs de Janze (Countesse de Janze) so i guess it could be them. Frederic de Janze died in 1933 in USA of septicaemia I think - I will check the date and see which month.

I am not sure whether this information means it is more likely or less likely to have been him? Any thoughts?

Louise

[Jimmy Piget]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
the index to Brian Laban's recent Le Mans book refers to "Stalter, Fred".

I'm afraid Brian Laban made a confusion with Fred Stalder, a French driving racer of the '1960s-1970s (as high as F2 in 1972), who is also the head of ROC engine tuning (from Chrysler units, among others)

[Marcor]

Hans: once again an amendment: please read QUINSSAINES and not Quissaines.

http://www.maporama....EARCH_ITI2.y=14

[Hans Etzrodt]

Mark - thank you for the correction and thanks also for the new toy. Very nice and handy. I will apply it to several hill climbs and see if it can help to locate the nearest large town.

[Marcor]

Same problem with Pont-Réan. I know it was organised by the ACO and near the town of Rennes. I've found no village with this name, but Pont Péan exists and is located near Rennes. I concludes nothing but I have some doubt. Sometimes the spelling of proper noun changes...

An other trace of Stalter in the season 1933, this time in the Rally Paris Juan-Les-Pins (August / September), once again driving a Lorraine-Dietrich, his own car...

[Vitesse2]

In the absence of any credible alternative, I've been running with Stalter as prime suspect. Finding pictures will be hard, as I don't have immediate access to any twenties journals. In any case, if our man was hiding behind a nom de course, he may well have been camera-shy too.

However, on this site

http://passionnemans...ition-1926.html

there is a link to a video clip from a film by Jacques Broux, "La Merveilleuse Aventure de l'Automobile - De 1890 à l'an 1930". Right at the end, it shows the second and third place Lorraine Dietrichs after the finish. The main shot is #5 (de Courcelles/Mongin), but the Stalter/Brisson car #4 can be seen moving across the shot. Only one of the drivers can be seen, only for a moment and moving, but I live in hope .....

The clip takes a while to load and you will need the DivX codec loaded to view it - click on the link on the site to get it.

[millerfroost]

Well I checked and Frederic de Janze died 24th december 1933 in Baltimore, USA, so he could have raced in September. i will check when he went to USA and see if I can find his immigration records.

Thanks for the help -suggestions gratefully accepted!

Louise Miller Frost

[Marcor]

Originally posted by Vitesse:

In the absence of any credible alternative, I've been running with Stalter as prime suspect. Finding pictures will be hard, as I don't have immediate access to any twenties journals. In any case, if our man was hiding behind a nom de course, he may well have been camera-shy too.

I've seen a picture showing Mister and Mrs Stalter, published in the French newspaper LE JOURNAL. Unfortunately very difficult to make a copy. It's a montage to put the two portraits in the more restricted place. It's from May 1933, in an article announcing the Orléans meeting.

In an other article, same source, now in August 1933, about Stalter: Stalter will take part in the Paris-Antibes-Juan Les Pins rallye in the beginning of Septemberr. Recordman in his class at Fontainebleau and Nancy, he will merely drive his own and faithful 15HP Lorraine-Dietrich. It will change him from the Vedette Lorraine 23 HP, "la 20 CV".

For me the last sentence makes me think that he was a test works driver for Lorraine-Dietrich.

[millerfroost]

How interesting - is the article available online anywhere? Or somewhere where I could request a scan - even the article in pieces would be a help.

And regards your comment about him being a test driver - where would i be able to check this? Are the records held anywhere currently?

And if it turns out not to be him, are there any other options, or do i assume he probably was not a driver at Le Mans F1 or Le Mans?

Thanks for your efforts -I wouldn't have known where to start.

Louise Miller Frost
South Australia

[Marc Ceulemans]

Stalter was NOT Comte Frédéric de Janzé, as he was still alive in 1934. He has written an article in the newspaper L'Aéro about the 24 hours of Le Mans. This article is signed H. Stalter.

[millerfroost]

Thanks for the info. I have not progressed at all in tracking Frederic down so am now beginning to think this was one of those family stories which somehow made its way into print.

Louise

[Marc Ceulemans]

I've found 2 articles about the second wedding of Count de Janzé.

The first in The Motor (UK), January 21, 1930

An interesting wedding took place in Paris last week when the Count de Janzé was married to Mrs Ryan of New York.

One of the promoters of Montlhéry Speedway, Fred de Janzé was a well-known and popular figure in the racing world some years ago.

He was instrumental in persuading E.A.D. Eldridge and the late J.G. Parry Thomas to visit Montlhéry at the Opening of the track in 1924 and give the place a hearty send-off by their hair-raising speed exhibitions.

Incidentally, the speed which those two drivers made nearly six years ago have only twice been equalled at Montlhéry, once by Albert Divo, on a Delage, and once by Leon Duray, on a Miller.

Count de Janzé is himself a first-class racing driver, having participated in the Indianapolis Grand Prix on one occasion.

During the past few years he has spent much of his time in Kenya Colony and recently made a name for himself in the literary world with a book on that county illustrated by cleverly drawn sketches of Kenya Life.


The seconf in Le Journal (Paris), January 10, 1930, in French

Le Comte de Janzé s'est remarié.

Le Comte Frédéric Jacques François de Janzé a épousé hier matin, à 11 heures 25, en l'église Saint-Pierre de Chaillot, Madame Maria Maria-Genevieve Willinger, veuve Ryan, une riche américaine.

On se rappelle le drame dont l'ex-Comtesse de Janzé fut l'héroïne un matin de printemps de 1927. Elle avait tenté de tuer son amant, le jeune Raymond de Trafford, et de se suicider ensuite.

Son geste l'avait amenée en correctionnelle; un an plus tard, le Président de la République l'avait grâciée... et le mari avait pardonné.

Le Comte de Janzé vit un nouveau roman d'amour.

[Marc Ceulemans]

Strange, de Janzé would have been a first-class racing driver who had participated in the Indianapolis Grand Prix on one occasion (according an European source) and in the Le Mans race (according an American source)...

[Vitesse2]

Marc - I know this goes against information from Jimmy Piget, but might he have been the somewhat mysterious Prince de Cystria? I can't see anyone else who might fit.

I've also found a report of the Paris shooting you mentioned above in The Times for March 28th 1927. Both parties recovered from their injuries and the Comtesse was later tried for shooting de Trafford. She received a fine of F100 and was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment. (The Times Dec 24th 1927)

As an aside, it seems that on March 29th several other newspapers published more lurid accounts of this affair, but made the mistake of illustrating their reports with pictures of the Vicomtesse de Janzé, wife of Frédéric's elder brother Henri. She promptly sued for libel and accepted a settlement in respect of this action from the following newspapers: Western Mail, Manchester Guardian, Liverpool Daily Courier, Liverpool Evening Express and Sheffield Daily Telegraph. (The Times June 1st 1927)

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Interesting. Serial adulterer, near-bankrupt, MP and car nut Alan Clark's dad (art historian and collector Lord Kenneth Clark (often known as "Lord Clark of Civilisation" after his TV series of the same name!)) married Countess Nolwen de Janzé after he was widowed. I'm assuming there must be some connection? Proof that the racing world's fairly small I guess.

Not Nolwen, but Molwen (?). Just found her first marriage to a doctor called Lionel Arnand-Delille. For some reason, although they were both French, they were married at St Bartholomew's in Corsham, Wiltshire. (The Times Sep 24th 1948)

[Vitesse2]

Again fairly O/T but de Trafford had what might be described as an eventful life afterwards. Evidently he bore Alice no malice as they married at the Mairie of Neuilly in Paris on February 22nd 1932. They were divorced in 1937 on the grounds of his adultery, at which point Alice was described as living in Kenya.

In June 1939 de Trafford, described as a salesman, was sentenced to three years penal servitude for the manslaughter of a cyclist - the implication in the court reports is that he was driving while drunk, although this is not actually stated.

He was a beneficiary in the will of The Hon Maurice Baring in 1946, but in the same year was also declared bankrupt. The bankruptcy was annulled on November 27th the same year, after his debts were paid in full. At this time he was said to be of no known occupation but living at the Riviera Hotel, Maidenhead.

On May 21st 1951 he married a Miss Eve Drummond in Douglas IoM.

References: The Times passim

[Marc Ceulemans]

Here's from Le Temps (Paris), January 10, 1930

Le mariage du Comte de Janzé avec Mrs Genevieve Willinger Ryan a été célébré ce matin dans la plus stricte intimité en l'église Saint-Pierre de Chaillot.

[millerfroost]

Thanks everyone, this is great. I haven't had access to the French newspapers so some of that I hadn't seen before (although I know the basic story).

I have several times come across references in newspapers (UK and US) saying that de Janze was a 'racing driver' and sometimes references to a specific track (sometimes saying F1 and sometimes motorcycles) but have never managed to confirm any of the stories outside the newspapers - which are quite notoriously inaccurate. It does seem he was quite a sportsman and was involved in Montlheury (I hope I have spelt that correctly) and apparently promoted it as a test track to manufacturers in the UK (something to do with less noise restrictions). He was also a hunter (in Africa) and his father was involved in promoting golf as a sport and in a sports and recreation island on the Seine (name escapes me at the moment), but the racing driver story is repeatedly mentioned with little back-up that I can find.

Thanks for all your help, please let me know if you find anything else!

Louise

[Marc Ceulemans]

A driver called de Fréjac won the 1,950 - 2,300 cc class for professionnals in the 1921 Poix-de-Picardie hillclimb. FTD was made by Artault in a Voisin and de Fréjac drove a Grégoire. De Fréjac could be the ideal nickname for Frédéric Jacques de Janzé, but if you make a yahoo (or similar) research in typing "de Fréjac", you will have many answers... The date of this hillclimb: June 12, 1921.

[millerfroost]

Very clever! Thanks for that. I tried the google search and couldn't find anything that seemed relevant - a lot about someone by the same surname, who started a PR company. Do you have a reference for the infromation that I could use?

Louise

[Marc Ceulemans]

At least 2 different sources, the second one being L'Automobile (from Brussels) who published the complete results of the event. Interesting the competitors were divided in 2 groups, the amateurs and the professionnals.