39 replies to this topic

[Sir Frank]

Before designing the 2003 car McLaren analyzed the problems of the MP4/17,
Whitmarsh : At the end of the season we had the second best car in the field.
The biggest deficit was unreliabilty, 13 defects 7 of them engine related. The dramatic increase in revs from Melbourne to Suzuka of +1000rpm accounted for most of the problems. For example rifts in the pistons.
Whimarsh : In winter testing the car was reliable but we were limiting revs. As soon as we increased the revs we encountered vibrations with all the negative effects. We were too conservative regarding our development program
One of the reasons for that was the out of date managing of the construction department. The other a miscalculated estimation of the cars and engines potential. In December 2001, McLaren decided to reorganize the construction department. They had 150 people working there by this point and were still functioning as if they were less.
Whitmarsh : The engineers had to deal with organisation too much, they didnt have sufficient time time enough to work on making the car faster. Same scenario was happening on the engine front. With the death of Paul Morgan (head of logistics), Mario Illiens job of constructing the engine suffered and was described as a second job. Jürgen Hubbert: We have underestimated its significance

With taking Hans-Ulrich Maik and Werner Laurenz on board the roles are set. Laurenz should take the processes to a scientific level. Illien can concentrate on the engine. McLaren split the design department in two teams. There are 5 people with responibilty for managment. One of them technical chief Mark Coughlan or director of aero Peter Prodomou. They take some responabilities from the 5 chief engineers. Adrian Newey (aero), Paddy Lowe (systems), Tim Goss (kraftübertragung) Mark Williams (chassis), Pat Fry (setup) are sitting in a room with 5m radius and have only one goal: the car. In August 2002 they had decided on the major aspects of the 2003 car. Whitmarsh : To beat Ferrari we need to steps not one

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More to follow later...

[kos]

Thank you! very interesting

[Oscar Jack]

Hi Sir Frank - very interesting insight. May we ask where this info comes from, please?

[Sir Frank]

Auto Motor und Sport Special, seasons preview issue. Always a great read, but only available in German, there are several very good articles about Ferrari, Sauber, Michelin, winter testing. This years issue is a little shorter and the articles are fewer but non the less offers very deep insight.

[Sir Frank]

In August 2002 they had decided on the major aspects of the 2003 car. Whitmarsh : To beat Ferrari we need to steps not one

About then (August) it became clear for the team that was resposible for the MP4/17 and the FO110M engine that the package had a lot more room for improvment than originally expected.
Under Neil Oatley they started to work on an interim MP4/17. First modification was a new front suspension in time for Indy.

A part follows which is too technical for me to translate to English, any German speaking people would be invited to help out Das anlenken der vorderen druckstreben am Radtrager statt am unteren Querlenker

Translated by Double Apex:

They changed the pickup point for the pushrod. It used to be at the lower wishbone, but now they moved straigt onto the upright below the axle.

It made the car less nervous especially on the kerbs and put more stress on the rear tires. It enabled a more precise turn in.

Since the winter tests the D version is incorporating a lighter and stiffer gearbox and new rear suspension, which also resulted in a shorter wheelbase. The diet at the rear enabled the CoG to be transfered forward. The wind tunnel of course was producing new wings, undertrays and all kinds of new parts. The FO110M engine got new cylinder heads, which reduced the frictional forces and meant less weight for the non static, moving components. These modifications resulted in the engine reaching the 19000rpm faster than before. In the last week of January the 6th step of development engine made its testing debut. The Melbourne spec engine should be putting out 50HP more than last years Suzuka spec.

The traction controll comes in significantly softer. Instead of cutting out the firing, the firing times our optimized. DCoulthard : The car does not twich anymore which was a problem in faster corners.

The modified interim MP4/17D with the new Michelin compounds was a serious contender for the F2002 in winter testing.
Whitmarsh: We are 0,5s-1s faster per lap depending on the track.
Pascal Vasselon: McLaren is doing times of 1:18 constantly in race trim, that has never happened before.
Coulthard: Two steps in the winter are one step net when the temperatures rise at seasons begin.

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More to come later, on the new MP4/18

[mclarensmps]

Thanks very much on taking the time out to translate this for us Sir Frank!! It is VERY INTERESTING info and is greatly appresiated !

[Budny]

Thanks

[HSJ]

I read on a Finnish F1 forum that a rumor is (source: Bild -- reliable? ) that MP4-18's engine will be less then 90kg in weight and produces... 930hp!

Believe it if you like. I hope it is true, but I suspect it is not.

[logic]

Sound so great

[MortenF1]

I've heard it's 88kg's and produces 917HP....

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by HSJ
I read on a Finnish F1 forum that a rumor is (source: Bild -- reliable? ) that MP4-18's engine will be less then 90kg in weight and produces... 930hp!

Believe it if you like. I hope it is true, but I suspect it is not.

Maybe it really will be DC's year.

[Frank&Patrick]

german f1total.com says something about 19700rpm and 930hp.
I think its all bullsh!t but who knows ...

check here (german) bild

cheers

[Menace]

Originally posted by race addicted

Remember what I said about that 50hp increase from Suzuka to Australia...

[MortenF1]

Which hasn't got anything to do with this. The new engine isn't to be run in the MP 4/17D, and I still doubt the 50HP gain.
And this whole new engine/HP hype, is all a bit weird, especially as I remember Adrian's comments last year, saying their engine was only as powerful as their '98 unit.....

Out of the top of my head, these are the HP-output of the latest Merc' engines.... :

(These numbers are from reading F1Racing, Autosport etc. "....the Merc' engine is believed to be producing around bla bla...". You've all read that sentence.)

'97 770HP
'98 790 "
'99 810 "
'00 825 "
'01 815 "
('02 ???)

[Menace]

Originally posted by Sir Frank
In the last week of January the 6th step of development engine made its testing debut. The Melbourne spec engine should be putting out 50HP more than last years Suzuka spec.

[Menace]

[logic]

Originally posted by race addicted

'01 815 "
('02 ???)

02: 815+50 = 865

[MortenF1]

Logic. You're not at ALL what you're name suggests. We're in the year 2003 now...
I've heard so many estimations of the HP output in '02, so that's why I only put "???".

And Menace, it says "Should be....".

[cheesy poofs]

I wonder how McLaren's new suspension ( ie; springs, dampers, etc.. ) have improved the car's handling since last year ?

[Menace]

Originally posted by race addicted

And Menace, it says "Should be....".

Ok, I told to you I heard it on the air during Speed coverage, read it on a finnish site (few weeks back) which tends to be VERY accurate about their F1 reporting, and now here it is, posted by Sir Frank from an interview with Whitmarsh in Auto Motor und Sport.

Sheesh... now I don't have a problem admitting I was wrong, but I certainly havent found any evidence, besides the fact 50hp is a lot, that would discredit this 50hp claim. If anything, Whitmarsh comments make me feel more CERTAIN the claim is valid.

[MortenF1]

You seem determined to convince me! I don't think Whitmarsh necessarilly tells the truth either.
But, I would have to agree with you, Tuurun Sanomat seems to be a very very accurate F1 news provider. (If that's who you're referring to then...)

[Menace]

Originally posted by race addicted
You seem determined to convince me!

Maybe.

It's all good. We will find out sooner or later, right?

[MortenF1]

How? If it becomes the general impression? Which it might be already. Or when Kimi blasts pass Montoya at Monza, doing 370+ km/h?

[lukywill]

good for mcl: when will they launch the whether forecast?

[Double Apex]

Das anlenken der vorderen druckstreben am Radtrager statt am unteren Querlenker

Actually this bit means they changed the pickup point for the pushrod. It used to be at the lower wishbone, but now they moved straigt onto the upright below the axle. Actually Ferrari did the same a while earlier, I believe with the introduction of the F-2002.

Coulthard found it much improved in ride and on turn to corners. It's a lot more complex to make though.

[Eau Red]

Originally posted by HSJ
I read on a Finnish F1 forum that a rumor is (source: Bild -- reliable? ) that MP4-18's engine will be less then 90kg in weight and produces... 930hp!

Believe it if you like. I hope it is true, but I suspect it is not.

Normally I'd say someone just made that up, but seeing as how it comes from a Finnish F1 forum... well, now I don't know what to think.

[Menace]

Originally posted by Eau Red



Normally I'd say someone just made that up, but seeing as how it comes from a Finnish F1 forum... well, now I don't know what to think.

Actually, if you read carefully enough, you would notice the source was actually Bild.

[Menace]

Originally posted by race addicted
How? If it becomes the general impression? Which it might be already. Or when Kimi blasts pass Montoya at Monza, doing 370+ km/h?

Well, lets hope its the second option.

[masterhit]

Fantastic information, SirFrank!

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Eau Red



Normally I'd say someone just made that up, but seeing as how it comes from a Finnish F1 forum... well, now I don't know what to think.

...Hey wait a minute...

[Sir Frank]

The 3rd and final part will be following soon...

This information is from the pre season isue, so I think it was originally reported here in AMuS first then in Turun Sanomat and other papers. AMuS is the most creditable German source and have very good and accuarze info.

[Sir Frank]

Originally posted by The Big Guns
Thanks very much on taking the time out to translate this for us Sir Frank!! It is VERY INTERESTING info and is greatly appresiated !

Good to know, thanks.

[logic]

Originally posted by logic
02: 815+50 = 865

Oops, sorry, I was stil in year 02
02 they had many problems so maybe bot much power increase then :

[desmo]

Originally posted by Double Apex


Actually this bit means they changed the pickup point for the pushrod. It used to be at the lower wishbone, but now they moved straigt onto the upright below the axle. Actually Ferrari did the same a while earlier, I believe with the introduction of the F-2002.

Coulthard found it much improved in ride and on turn to corners. It's a lot more complex to make though.

This innovation was actually introduced in F1 on BAR's inaugural chassis, the PR 01 in '99, Ferrari followed suit the following year with the F1-2000. This was however something that had been routinely done on CART cars for some time earlier.

[Sir Frank]

Originally posted by Double Apex


Actually this bit means they changed the pickup point for the pushrod. It used to be at the lower wishbone, but now they moved straigt onto the upright below the axle. Actually Ferrari did the same a while earlier, I believe with the introduction of the F-2002.

Coulthard found it much improved in ride and on turn to corners. It's a lot more complex to make though.

Thank you for that

[Sir Frank]

There are some earlier parts I left out:

- Whitmarsh about the 2002 season: Disappointment is our biggets motivatior.

- McLaren has 560 employees, Ilmor 400, and Stuttgart has a group of 100 working on the engine side.

3rd and Final part:

Parallel to improving the MP4/17D runs the development program for the MP4/18 and the new engine in Woking and Brixworth. There are more speculations circulating than facts. What we know is that the new Mercedes FO110P has its first run on the dynometer at the end of February. P is following M because N was an experimental engine and landed in the trashcan and O looks like a zero.

Illien still wants to produce no more than 100 engines. In 2002 it was 94. The competition from BMW and Ferrari had twice as much. Illien: Its also possible with less.
The first on track tests with the new chassis should take place at end of March (Edit: Alex Wurz stated since, that the first test of the MP4/18 will take place on Monday after the Malaysian GP) Theoretically, it would be race ready by Imola, April 20. Thats when McLaren will have enough spare parts to cpmpete with.
It will take longer than that in reality, maybe the 6th GP in Austria. Experience shows that 3 weeks of preparations are too short, as Ferrari have found out last year. Whitmarsh: Performance and reliabilty compared to the old car will determine when we start racing with new car. We are Felexible.
The only infos you can get on the new beast are that it will be extremely light and low. So low that the drivers complained about comfort and the strange seating position at seat fitting. The rules give little room for innovations. The cahssis has to be at least 55 centimeters tall.

John Sutton (poached from Ferrari, gearbox specialist) has taken the info that Ferrari was running 40kg more ballast than McLaren in 2002, CoG was lower and the gearbox changed fatser.
The new McLaren gearbox casing wil be made of carbon (edit CFRP, I belive) There is also talk of a double clutch, which enables gearchange without interuption in the applied power.
Knowing about the numbers, Martin Whitmarsh believes that there will be an improvement of 1s over the old car. Whitmarsh: We think that we can surprise a few people
In the first week of February McLaren tested in Barcelona, they simulated a whole GP weekend from Wednesday to Friday. Free practice, single lap qualifying and a race with the car from qualfying.

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Info on that test can be found here:
Wednesday

http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s...84&#post1157484

[Leo]

The new McLaren gearbox casing wil be made of carbon

Interesting detail, since earlier attempts at Prost and Stewart failed. Only John Barnard's carbon box for Arrows was a moderate success as it served for several years. Still, there are some interesting experiments in this area: more teams explore titanium castings, McLaren goes composites and Renault uses a truly exotic metal matrix (carbon fibre reinforced titanium alloy). We'll see who has the best solution.

[SeanValen]

McLaren looking threatening, Schuey's comments during testing about McLaren interesting, and McLaren is leading after Aussie GP(yes I know it could of been Williams or Ferrari as well, but a bonus McLaren have nonetheless), think we have a fight on our hands, expect Ferrari to be bullish with all guns blazing in Sepang and Brazil, fasten your seatbelts, were in for a rollercoaster 2003 season, right on the edge and into the spiritual gripworld.

[Sir Frank]

Originally posted by Leo


Interesting detail, since earlier attempts at Prost and Stewart failed. Only John Barnard's carbon box for Arrows was a moderate success as it served for several years. Still, there are some interesting experiments in this area: more teams explore titanium castings, McLaren goes composites and Renault uses a truly exotic metal matrix (carbon fibre reinforced titanium alloy). We'll see who has the best solution.

Toyota is developing a titanium casting (not surprising with Brunner) at the moment but they are still using an aluminum one.

[HSJ]

Sir Frank, thanks for the info. I really can't wait to see the 18, and see what times it can set on track.