203 replies to this topic

[Barry Lake]

The Old Nurburgring; how many corners did it have.
This is one I have pondered for more than 45 years.
I seem to remember the number originally as 172. Later it "grew" to 174, and then 176.
I always had my doubts anyway, since such things often are exaggerated. And the other thing is that the number - correct or not - referred to the combined North and South circuits, which rarely were used in their entirety.
The most commonly used GP circuit, even in the old days, took the south turn to come back up behind the pits, without taking in the entire southern loop.
As well, I am certain that every little kink in the road was counted.
On my many visits there I always intended to count them - but could never bring myself to do a slow lap. And, in any case, it wasn't possible to do the southern loop, which then became obliterated by the New Nurburgring as currently used for F1.
Does anyone know the true answer?

[Michael M]

Believe this question will never be answered correctly, as you said, what is a corner and what not?

[Ray Bell]

The most commonly quoted figure of 174 was purely for the North circuit, the 14+ miles that made up the GP circuit we knew and loved. If you have trouble driving it slowly, next time you're there just pretend you're in your FC.

[Fast One]

Probably the main reason I bought Grand Prix Legends was to "drive" the original Ring. I figured I'd just drive around and count them. I never get to the end without losing track! The problem is exactly as Ray describes it: what is a corner? There are lots of bends and kinks that are taken flat out, just like the "straight" at Mosport. If you don't count them, the number of corners drops way down, but it is still a daunting number. Eventually I hope to get good enough to stay on the track and not lose count! Until then, the "official" number that I've always heard is 174.

[gunner]

Fast One.

Are the cars and detail as good on GP Legends as GP2?

Gunner

[Fast One]

Light years better, especially the physics models. You can make any chassis and drive train adjustment that could be made on the real cars, down to individual tire pressures, ramp angles, and number of clutches. The graphics are pretty good, too. If you clip the edge of the road, you will actually see a puff of dust in your mirrors!

[Ray Bell]

I had a demo with it... utterly unbelieveable! Spa! gorgeous... Nurburgring! Gurney fantastic! Monza and the disappearing flaggies... Rouen... got to work that out.
But I can't do it. Never, never do it!
First, I wouldn't do it without the mockup cockpit and controls, then I know if I had them and started to play I would never do anything else.
Others would be in the same position, I guess. I don't know where anyone gets the time to devote to it. I'm hard pressed convincing myself I don't spend too much time on Atlasf1!

[Fast One]

That's where I've been the last two months Ray...devoting every minute to making my Ferrari go faster. more like making me go faster. It is so addictive! there are even aftermarket add-ons, so you can put in correct period advertisements and replace Beltiose, Ginther and Parkes with Bob Anderson, Guy Ligier, and Jackie Stewart. Rindt is an idiot in the sim, too, so it's very realistic!

[Ray Bell]

And I'll just bet FJ beats him every time!

[mat1]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
The Old Nurburgring; how many corners did it have.
This is one I have pondered for more than 45 years.
I seem to remember the number originally as 172. Later it "grew" to 174, and then 176.
(...)
Does anyone know the true answer?

No, I don't either. But I know the current Nordschleife a little bit. My count comes to 94 kinks, corners etc. This is of course without the in the old days used Sudkehre (adds 2 I think), and without the Sudschleife.

By counting somewhat different you can make perhaps 100, but 172 or so is impossible.

When the Ring was renovated (1970/71) I think some kinks have disappeared, and some real curves did become kinks.
But a difference of 70 - 80 seems a lot to me.

Mat

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Fast One
Rindt is an idiot in the sim, too, so it's very realistic! [/B]

Thanks for the iconoclastic breath of fresh air, Fast One.
In this sanctuarium that we all have created around the Nostalgia, I find this kind of sense of humour extremelly refreshing...to say the least.
;-)
Felix Muelas

[Ray Bell]

I'm glad I saw him the day he was not idiot at all... Warwick Farm, 1969.

[Barry Lake]

mat 1
Thanks for your calculation. You tend to confirm my suspicion that this number has been exaggerated from the very early days and no-one ever has bothered to check it or question it.
Your count suggests the number might be even more greatly exaggerated than I had thought. Perhaps the original "counter" was doing "tank slappers" down the straights, or maybe warming up his tyres and counting every swerve!
I also tend to go along with the theory that some of the kinks originally counted would have been straightened out in the "upgrade" of the circuit (in the 1960s?). Incidentally, I remember reading somewhere that Chris Amon said the track was ruined way back then, let alone the more recent upgrades.
I had thought some highly detailed maps might show the true number of corners and kinks, but the Legends GP computer game also sounds like a good chance to at least get close to the truth.
How about someone drives the track on Legends while someone else looks over his shoulder and counts?

[Barry Lake]

And don't forget that when Don surfaces again, all you people talking about Legends and Rindt without mentioning the old Nurburgring, are in line for a Stop-Go penalty!

[Ray Bell]

Not possible, once you've seen it on Legends you have to be playing it...
Haven't you seen this game... seriously? Rouen... Spa, the old Spa... man, it's great.

[Fast One]

I think that part of the problem is that the number of "corners" changes as cars get better. When the 'Ring was built in the '30s, I'd be willing to guess that a number of corners that would be taken flat out by the '60s required braking, or at least modulation of the throttle. What was a good lap time for a Merc or an Auto Union anyway? Thos big cars on those skinney tires may have had 174 corners. By the "GPL" era (1967) alot of those "corners" are just flat out twists in the road. I'm sure a modern F1 car would reduce the number further still, that is if they could negotiate the Flugplatz in one piece!

Barry, my simulated John Cooper is working as we speak on a two seater Cooper-Maserati to haul potential sponsors around in! It should be slow enough for you to count, especially with Rindt at the wheel! Now, my stop-and-go having been served, it's back to the track with me...

Boy, I sure wish someone would create the Tasman Series tracks for GPL. Now THAT would be something!

[Ray Bell]

Wigram, Surfers, Pukekohe and Lakeside are there on the GP2 other tracks pages... that's nearly half of them... unfortunately not the best half.

[Fast One]

Unfortunately, they don't convert to GPL, Ray. Until someone figures out how to do that, I'll have to wait. I don't want to drive them in a winged machine. I do have GP2, so maybe I could goe get them for a look see. Didn't you say Bathhurst is there as well?

[Ray Bell]

Wasn't Lang's pre-war record (undoubtedly in 1939) about 10:16, and that wasn't broken until about 1955... by Fangio. I think that's about right.

[Mike Argetsinger]

I agree with Mat that 174 or 176 is way too high. In fact I believe that the correct number is 73 curves with 33 lefts and 40 rights (other aracania of possible interest is that the steepest rise is 17 percent and the steepest decline is 27 percent)! Like Fast One I have never had the presence of mind to count them as I went along although I have done a number of both single-seater and touring car races there (including two 24-Hour races). Whatever the correct number may be, I remain unshakeable in my conviction that it is the greatest race circuit in the world. The best quote I still have ever heard about the Ring, that to me really sums it all up, was on the postcard my brother Peter sent me after he did his first race there. He said, "This circuit is God's gift to a race car driver."

[Junior]

FYI, Al Layton, Greg Longfield and Niven Riches are working on Tasman tracks for GPL. Warkwick Farm is their first, and every once in a while you can "see" them testing it on VROC. It's listed as "warwick".

It's their first track, so the going is a bit slow, but they've promised screenies soon. Check it out here:


http://underworld.fo...manproject.html


FastOne, I don't see why you'd need a two-seater Cooper to count turns at the Ring. Even flat out, Coopers go slow enough so you should be able to drive and count at the same time.

And if you're switching to a Cooper next season, you should inform the Boss. I hear he's the cranky type.

BTW, we can hop on the league server some night and dial up the Ring. You could drive and I could watch and count corners.

[p][Edited by Junior on 06-12-2000]

[Ray Bell]

Who was it sang: "Can't Wait for Summer?"
Longford, Lakeside, that will be great!

[Junior]

I'm hoping after they get Warwick done, the rest will go quicker.

That's what some of the guys at GPLEA were saying. (In their case it was Snetterton.) The process of figuring out how to make a track from scratch is the hard part. Once you have the process down, it gets easier.[p][Edited by Junior on 06-12-2000]

[Fast One]

Junior--

Maybe it would be better if you drove. We'd have a lot more time to count that way!!! Just don't let The Bossman find out we sneaked onto his track without permission, or there will be hell to pay. He is one badass dude!

Ray--

Once all of the Tasman courses are out there, then will we get you hooked on GPL? We have seven countries represented now, but no Aussies or Kiwis.

Mike--

What, you mean you didn't count corners during the night stints? I am truly disappointed!

I think this corner count takes on a life of its own. It's a way to try to convey the awesomeness of the place to people who have no real connection. Besides, I think the number is a fluid thing. What were obviously corners to be reckoned with in the thirties are flat out bend today. Count as many as you like. It is still the greatest track ever built. Todays modern plagerized version doesn't merit the whole name, Nurburgring. I just call it the "Nu".

[Dennis David]

According to Cyril Posthumas in his history of the German Grand Prix, the entire 17.58 mile circuit which included the 14.17 Nordschleife and the 4.8 Sudschleife (they overlapped a little) contained "no less than 172 corners of infinite variety, 88 being left-hand and 84 right-hand"

I myself follow Mike Hawthorne's advise "... I'm told there are 172 corners. I didn't stop to count them..."

[Ray Bell]

It's amazing that the number carried on with such authority, isn't it?
No, Junior, I don't see me getting hooked, not a chance. I'd love to, but I couldn't risk it. And anyway, I'd be spending my time at Francorchamps and Adenau if I did, I'm sure, with a little in Rouen, I suppose. What will be interesting will be to compare the local circuits with those, as it will give us a better appreciation of how different the sim is to the reality.
Now, who's going to work on Lobethal?
Nobody has the courage to do that, do they?

[Barry Lake]

Ray
No, I haven't seen Legends and I am dreading the day that I do. I would become hooked and would not be able to work long enough hours to put something away for my old age.
Then what if they then put me into an old men's home that doesn't have a computer?
Better I work hard now, then have control of my old age, have a nice home and a powerful computer with Legends on it - perhaps a mock-up cockpit of a 250F Maserati from which to drive it...

[Ray Bell]

Sorry, old chap, Legends is only 1967...
but a Cooper Maser might be nice at Longford?

And as for you, Junior, what about you get us on board as the authoritarian ones to ensure you get the flag points in the right place, especially the one near the lake at the Farm.. and what about the black swans, where will they be?

[Junior]

Ray, you mentioned comparing GPL's version of it's circuits to the real thing.

Jan, one of the drivers in my league, (um, I mean the league I'm in) was just telling me an interesting story the other day.

He was in Amsterdame on business a couple weeks ago and went into a local pub. He struck up a conversation with another patron who, as it turns out, used to race in open-wheeled club events at Watkins Glen back in the 60's.

Now, first of all, Jan has never raced anything in real life, just sims. Plus, he's never even been to Watkins Glen in person before. (Let alone while it was configured back in '67.)

This guy he was talking to not only didn't play GPL, but he'd never even heard of Grand Prix Legends before.

Even though Jan's experience at the Glen was purely simulated, and the other chap's experience was totally real life, they were able to chat about the Glen for hours! And when they were done, the other guy was amazed at how much Jan knew not only about the track, but about the idiosyncrasies of setting up a car to run well there.

I think that's the best evidence of just how realistic this sim is.

And, btw, I've managed to budgit my time on GPL enough so it doesn't rule my life. But I definately suffer against the compatition because of that.

[Ray Bell]

The problem is, and others feel the same, it's just too close to reality and too addictive. But if you can do it, and others can, it's okay for you to just go on enjoying life. We can suffer...
but I would like to help if I can to get it right. Like the chap in the bar, I was there. So were the swans. We were a part of it.

[Fast One]

Ray, Berry, where does a Tasman-starved American like me go to find track layouts of Lobethal and the Tasman circuits? The Tasman series always got coverage in Road & Track, but never to the extent that we saw what they looked like, or how they weere laid out. I've seen some Tasman footage, but again, the cameras were in one or two places, so not much of an idea of the tracks weas to be had. Do you guys have photos that could be postedto give a sense of some of them? You guys have peaked my curiousity, and I am as much a lover of tracks as cars. There isn't much I can find on the series, or racing Down Under up our way. Any suggestions on where to start would be appreciated.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, Fasty, Bathurst is there. Now I learn that we couldn't even build Lobethal oursevles, it is over 7km, but I find in looking at the Bremgarten sim on GP2 that some of it is a lot like some of Lobethal.
Don't be too perturbed, Lobethal last ran in 1948 and it is just a distant memory to all but a few with vivid imaginations, but what a circuit!
With the Farm currently being done, that is a good start, but what you say is quite correct about not knowing layouts - some are in various books (the Farm is in a couple I have) - I'll get together with someone and post them for you... that's easy, real easy, for we do have a book with 110 maps of Australian circuits. I don't think Terry will mind if we scan a few in, though we could get them from other sources easily enough (but his are the most accurate).
Actually, in the GP2 tracks there is an aerial veiw of Bathurst which gives some small idea of the elevation changes. The sim also gives some idea, but not really enough.
I have a video of a lap of Lobethal, maybe I can do something with that... but it's a ten or twelve minute lap (my brother was driving)... the lap record was 5:40.
Rambling on here, it's great that you're interested in this stuff, just a shame you didn't see FJ racing here. He drove a F5000 Surtees at Warwick Farm once, and earlier in his career won a race at Longford in a Cooper. Longford pics I should scan out of the magazine for you... the originals are slides.
I have a lot of Warwick Farm slides I took for colour and background reference for cover paintings for RCN (the cover was always a painting), and they all contain F5000s...
See what we can do. Boy, we're a long way from a corner count... lemme see, the Farm had 15, Longford 13 (in 4.5 miles)... there's another Lakeside sim at http://atcc.8m.com if you want to check that out, once again GP2... Chrissy won there, Keir!

[Barry Lake]

Well, since you people have got off the original subject...
Back in 1988 I did a few meetings in Japan as team (car) manager for Vern Schuppan's Porsche sports car team.
In a little town we stayed in near Fuji, we would go ten-pin bowling with the mechanics when things were quiet (not often).
They had those video machines side by side that you could race each other (this was before they came to Australia). One of the English mechanics just sat there and drove and drove and drove. He became so good, no-one could get near him. As we all know, there is no substitute for practice.
One day one of the drivers, Mauricio Sandro-Sala, came along with us. He was amazed; he'd never seen one of these machines before. He watched for a while, then the mechanic challenged him to a race, saying he'd always wanted to show him that mechanics are better drivers.
"Morris", as they called him, wobbled around all over the place first time up and was soundly beaten. Then he asked for another try... and thrashed the mechanic soundly!
They all said, "That's bullshit! You've practiced on these things before."
Sandro-Sala said, "No, honestly, I've never seen them before. But during the first race I suddenly realised it was Suzuka. I test there every day of the week. Once I knew where I was I knew what side of the road to be on approaching the corners and then it was easy."
(In those early machines they didn't have much background scenery so it wasn't easy to recognise the track - and they didn't tell you).

[Ray Bell]

Junior - would it be possible for us to get the Warwick Farm GPL circuit out at Warwick Farm for the December 17 40th anniversary?
We'll put Matich on it and see if he can beat his lap record, and he'll be a good one, working on springs, shocks, bars, pressures and all that. Frank was very analytical.
If it can be done, we'll promote the game there, put on a few simulators for the purpose, get the newspapers in, all that stuff... so will it be ready?

[Junior]

Sorry guys. For some reason I couldn't access Af1's BB's for a couple days. Don't know why.

Ray - Thanks for the email. I've been meaning to contact Al Layton, and this would seem like the perfect opportunity.

FastOne - Maps and info on a lot of the Tasman tracks:
http://underworld.fo...ps/ausmaps.html

Go to the bottom of the page and follow the individual track links. It has track maps, a brief history and links to photos of the real circuits.

Tracks included are: Pukekohe, Levin, Wigram, Teretonga, Lakeside, Warwick Farm, Sandown and Longford.

Barry - What you mentioned about Sandro-Sala sounds very similar to what I've heard about the next BIG sim, Grand Prix 3. Apparently Eddie Irvine took it for a "test drive" on GP3's Monaco circuit. His first try was crap, but his second try beat the best times of the testers.

Obviously racing in real life translates into the sim world. Too bad that's not reciprocal!

[Junior]

It's always embarrassing to be the next person to post after your own post.

Alan Layton has responded to my initial inquiry with a very nice email response. I'll be forwarding it to you guys (Ray and Barry) so you can contact Alan straight away, as he's said he'd welcome any help you might offer.

For the rest of you who are interested, the track itself is complete, but only the racing surface and surrounding armco.

After the Farm is completed (definately before December), Wigram is next on the list. Any opinions on Wigram?

[Darren]

Since we've apparently hopped fora and are now in the business of discussing retro sims, I'd like to register my utter horror of the Bremgarten layout for GP2. I can only imagine how terrifying it would have been bouncing all over that track, having just suffered a nasty tank-slapper with 60 laps of fuel aboard (you must try the enduro series - 6 classic tracks at 124 laps each). Do any of the eminences grises here recall drivers remarking on how rough the surface was and how scary that second corner is?

[Ray Bell]

Wasn't it Huge who said Wigram was his local and/or favourite... I've never been to NZ, but there is a lot of info available on a website devoted to NZ racing... it has some reports and photos on the races... look at http://www.sergent.c...tasman1964.html and work from there. Contact him and he has more pics... who knows where Donn Anderson is? Eoin Young is around, too.. these would be good people to check it out, particularly Donn and his brother, Roger, who raced there those days.

[Barry Lake]

If you lot have given up on trying to figure out how many corners there are on the old Nurburgring, how about you pass the hat around, buy a return air ticket Sydney-Frankfurt-Sydney, and I will go and count them myself...

[Ray Bell]

Not you, we're suspicious of your maths... they can either send me or keep the thread going... it's getting into some nicely diverse stuff.

[Barry Lake]

What about aerial photographs or detailed army survey maps, pre-1970s?
Is there anyone in Germany who can help?

[Ray Bell]

This is a serious question for you, isn't it,
Barry?

[Mike Argetsinger]

Barry - Yes. Such detailed drawings and schematics do exist - in fact I was looking them over recently. They were published in the Nurburg Ring Magazine while the circuit was being constructed. A complete set of the magazines was donated to the Watkins Glen Motor Racing Research Library by Werner Winter who was the Publisher of the magazine in the 60's and 70's. It was a monthly magazine and the set starts with Vol. 1 No. 1 in 1927 and runs complete through 1979. I'm a little unclear on whether publication was suspended in '79 or whether that was when Herr Winter stopped publishing (and collecting them). In either case the artwork is breathtaking - particularly the pre-war material. Best of all you will find all the detail you are looking for regarding the original build as well as the latter updates. By the way, if you are not aware of the Library you should look it up at http://www.racingarchives.org
The library is dedicated to serious archival research on all forms of motor sport worldwide and the collection is impressive. Better yet, come visit it. The library was dedicated by Stirling Moss in September 1998 (concurrent with celebrations marking the 50th anniversary of racing at Watkins Glen). It was officially opened to the public on June 4, 1999 by Jackie Stewart. Stewart remarked that while there are many great auto and racing museums in the world, the WGMRRL is unique in that it is dedicated to serious collection and preservation of racing archives. It accomodates both the casual browser as well as the very serious researcher/historian. We hired a top archivist (Phil McCray) away from nearby Cornell University and Phil and his staff are doing a great job in establishing state- of-the-art preservation and retrieval systems as well as growing the collection. The collection is already staggering. It has been a labor of love by many leading figures in American racing - and although located in Watkins Glen (and obviously the Watkins Glen collection was the basis) - the goals and scope encompass all forms of motorsport and on an international level. As I said, I hope you will visit. In fact I would be most delighted to give you a personal tour. I believe I have persuaded Don Capps to meet me there the last weekend in August (I am racing there that weekend) and I extend the same invitation to any serious contributor to this Nostalgia Forum. I hope you'll take a look at the web site and let me know what you think.

[Ray Bell]

You've done it again, Mike, opening another set of floodgates. I think I could hear Barry booking his ticket from here, but I'm not sure if he like the price.... Once again, your post enriches the knowledge of all.

[C F Eick]

As the Nürburgring is my greatest interest in life I would like to contribute to this thread.

You're right Barry in that the original 1927 Nürburgring had 172 corners, 88 lefts and 84 rights, but the question is how they counted? Since the opening in 1927 the track has been under renovation and rebuilding so many times that the number of corners could have changed over the years. However, in 1967 the "Hohenrain" curve was introduced between kilometer 22.35 an 22.50 at the end of the long "Döttinger Höhe" straight, adding at least one curve so that the number ought to have been 173 after that.

On July 8 1970 the German Press Agency announced that the F1 GP at the Nürburgring was cancelled. The reason was a majority decision taken at a GPDA meeting at the French GP on the 4/5 of July. The GPDA presented a list with 18 change suggestions for the Ring, the most important one being a demand for double Armco barrier around 16 kilometres of the track. Since the changes couldn't be made before the GP at August 2, a decision was made on July 11 to move the GP to Hockenheim.

In February 1971 the construction work began and the "new" Nordschleife was opened on May 2. The changes were quite severe, a lot of the jumps were removed and many corners were straightened. The track now "only" had 73 corners, 40 rights and 33 lefts. At the same time, a lot of the hedges surrounding the track was removed giving the drivers the possibility to actually see what was hidden behind the corners. Jacky Ickx described the "new" Ring as "an Autobahn"!

The lap record in 1969 was set by Jacky Ickx at 7:43,8 min and the lap record in 1971 on the "new" Ring was set by Francois Cevert at 7:20,1 min.

The fastest time recorded on the Ring was an incredible 6:58,6 min lap set by Niki Lauda in practice for the German GP 1975 with team mate Clay Regazzoni setting the official lap record in the race at 7:06,4 min.

Mike Argetsinger claimed in his post that the steepest decline was 27%. Well, the part he is referring to is the "Steilstrecke", a connection from "Klostertal" to " Hohe Acht" which was never part of the track. It was used by the car industry for brake testing. The steepest decline on the actual track is 11% but I can assure anyone who's never been there that it's steep enough!!!

Since I know a lot of Nürburgring stories (and who doesn't?) I'm thinking of opening a "Nürburgring stories" thread. It ought to have potential to beat Keir's 300+ "Amon stories" thread, ought it not???!!!

/C F Eick

[Ray Bell]

That's what we like, a man with ambition!
Of course, when the thread wears out, it too can go into the museum for all to read.
One thing - I have never understood gradients expressed as percentages... what is an 11% gradient?

[mat1]

I still think 173 or something in that order must have been the nord- and Sudschleife together. I think I know the current N-ring rather well, and for me it is impossible to count more than about 100 "corners". You have to include kinks etc.

Of course the renovation of 1970 has taken out a lot of "corners", but about 45% seems a little too much.

So, 172 must be: nord- and sudschleife together.

mat

[Uwe]

Ulrich Thomson, the man who wrote the drivers manual to the Nurburgring ("Das Nürburgring-Fahrer-Handbuch") confirmed 73 corners after the rebuilt of 1970. But now where the s/f straight and the Südkurve have been removed it should be 72 corners. (No, I didn't count them...)

BTW, the drivers manual is still available and it has drawings of the whole track with fine details incl. the racing line. (Ulrich Thomson, Heel Verlag GmbH, Königswinter). The weight lays on the drawings, not on the text, so it can also be recommended for non-germans.

Uwe

[Ray Bell]

And so we welcome another new member with some knowledge of the things we want to know... keep on posting, Uwe! The 'Junior' disappears after thirty posts...

[Uwe]

Thank you, Ray.
I did make a little mistake. It should be 71 corners actually (2 corners at Südkurve and 1 corner - Nordkurve - replaced by 1 corner shortcutting Hohenrain with Hatzenbach). Oops...

Uwe