49 replies to this topic

[DNQ]

I'd be intersted to here your nominations for best street circuits? I'm mostly interested in city street venues rather than open road venues like Bathurst or Spa.

Adelaide, Long Beach, Surfers Paradise, Birmingham (more for the surroundings then the circuit itself) and Monaco feature highly on my list of favourite street circuits, with Canberra and Denver (new circuit) at the total opposite end of the spectrum...

[Geza Sury]

IMHO the best street circuit of all time is undoubtedly Montjuich. It was a beautiful venue and the course was challenging for the drivers. I've been to Barcelona a couple of years ago and I think that's a beautiful city. Shame the organisers didn't improve the safety standars enough and the Spanish Grand Prix had to be removed form the circuit.

Worst? Maybe Dallas since the state of it's surface was catastrophic and the circuit layout was way too slow. The original layout of the Phoenix City circuit was also quite bad, but the 1991 version was a lot better though.

BTW, I'm just planning to visit the remains of the old Nepliget Park circuit in Budapest. Actually, the name 'Nepliget Park' is wrong as the word 'liget' means something like 'park' in Hungarian, so it's better to call it just 'Népliget'. Actually it means 'People's Park.'

[DNQ]

Originally posted by Geza Sury
IMHO the best street circuit of all time is undoubtedly Montjuich.

Ah of course! how could I forget

[LittleChris]

I took some photos of Montjuich when I was there last September which are here

http://www.racingcircuits.net/

Lovely place.

Geza,

I never saw the race at Dallas but I'm suprised you think the track was slow as I remember Jacques Lafitte saying it was ' like Francorchamps in a city ' !!

Worst city( car park ) track - Las Vegas

[Flying Panda]

Best - St. Petersburg, Surfers Paradise, Albert Park, Ceaser's Palace, Belle Isle, Porto, Long Beach, Montreal, Pau, the list could go on and on.

but I agree that Dever should be on the worst list, add to that Houston, Canberra and Bayfront Park (looks bloody beautiful, but is just too narrow to be competitative on)

[stavelot]

Old Spa ist of course the best.

[Barry Boor]

As a pure round-the-houses street track, Ospedaletti (San Remo) would take some beating.

Spa was wonderful but hardly a street circuit.

Despite being in a major city, and being a fabulous venue, I cannot class Montjuic as a 'street' track. It is a park circuit that briefly runs along a city street. I would list it much like Phoenix Park in Ireland or Crystal Palace in London. I suppose the difference is that Montjuic was run on public roads whereas the Palace and Monza - both in parks, were/are not.

Maybe we need accurate definitions of the different types of track.

[CLX]

Adelaide and Long Beach, but not the Long Beach they run today, the one they runned at some 5 years ago.

[Bostromi]

Las Vegas could challenge the worst-title.

Per

[jgm]

Las Vegas was a car park circuit and, as such, was in a class all by itself. Let's hope it remains unique.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Would Targa Florio qualify as one of the best?

[AlesiUK]

Vegas must be the worst street circuit of all time,didnt the track keeping falling apart as well?but then again,it was Vegas.so.....

i loved Birmingham,pau is also a fav.

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by LittleChris
Geza,

I never saw the race at Dallas but I'm suprised you think the track was slow as I remember Jacques Lafitte saying it was ' like Francorchamps in a city ' !!

That's interesting! Well, the average speed of the fastest lap set by Niki Lauda was 133.302 kph (82.830 mph), hardly Spa-Francorchamps ;)

[Pikachu Racing]

Long Beach before the current layout; Toronto and old tight Vancouver circuit.

Denver circuit was ****. How about Meadowlands?

[Jim Thurman]

You think the current Denver is the worst?...you should have seen the original c. 1990

Not mentioned here so far, but very deserving as "worst" - the first St. Petersburg and Niagara Falls, NY.

The original St. Petersburg went out and back on the pier. Decided the Trans-Am title when a car spun at the far end, blocked the track, cars stacked up behind and cars in front came around to wait in queue behind those previously stopped - thereby gaining almost a full lap (if ever there was a call for a full course yellow or even red!). One of the title contenders was in front of the spin, one behind. Game over!

Niagara Falls was a series of 90 degrees with one tight L-R-R-L complex of 90 degrees through the driveway of their convention center. Minimal elevation change. The short lived SCCA Racetrucks had one run into a tire barrier, which resulted in a similar back-up to St. Petersburg.

So many forgotten street circuits in the U.S. - most deservingly so...

Tacoma, Spokane, Columbus, the other Dallas variants, the second and third variations of St. Petersburg, Des Moines (90 degrees, but some elevation and camber changes), Minneapolis.


Jim Thurman

[Ray Bell]

Dare I mention Woody Point?

Not a race, but it looked like one, it was meant to be one, but had to be run as a 'high speed reliability trial.'

Competitors came to one intersection (it was mostly gravel, by the way) and turned left. Later in the lap they'd come haring down that same street from the opposite direction, then turn left into the other end of the street they'd already entered!

This was in August, 1936, about the same time that the triangle of roads at Benalla saw practice and no race because police stopped play. The intention had been to convince authorities that racing on public roads or streets was safe.

With a rollover, a lost wheel or two and several other unsavoury incidents, the message never got through.

In fact, the Mayor of Redcliffe said that he would never again let such louts loose on the streets of the municipality.

[jimm]

For F1

Best Downtown (ie not street not road): Monoco and Melborne

Best Road: The Ring what else?

Worst Downtown: Pheonix or Dallas, take your pick

Worst Road: .......Most have been decient. If forced Dijion?

[WDH74]

The original Long Beach always looked like a fun one. Monaco (any of them) is fascinating as a technical exercise, as well as it's unique location and scenery. I can't think of any other pure, downtown in major cities courses that I've much liked. As for open road (public road but not necessarily in a major city), the original Elkhart Lake course is probably my favorite, mostly because it's the only one I've seen in real life! In "American Sports Car Racing of the 1950's" by Edgar, Parravano, and Lynch, there's a great photo of the start of one of the races. The cars are streaming around the first turn, right in front of the bar, with two old guys sitting on the curb watching! Great, if ultimately way to dangerous, stuff.
-William

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
As a pure round-the-houses street track, Ospedaletti (San Remo) would take some beating.

Spa was wonderful but hardly a street circuit.

Despite being in a major city, and being a fabulous venue, I cannot class Montjuic as a 'street' track. It is a park circuit that briefly runs along a city street. I would list it much like Phoenix Park in Ireland or Crystal Palace in London. I suppose the difference is that Montjuic was run on public roads whereas the Palace and Monza - both in parks, were/are not.

Maybe we need accurate definitions of the different types of track.

Good point...

As DNQ suggests, he's looking for opinions on municipal layouts. When I think of a "street circuit", I think downtown, in a city, though technically it could be over any public road. Circuits such as Belle Isle and the like are through limited access park roads. The remainder, from the original Watkins Glen road course, the Ring, Targo Floria, Mille Miglia to the Isle of Man should be classified as true "road" racing courses.


The Best: The second version of the Long Beach F1 event was pretty good. Monaco sure is a classic for its beauty and technical driving demands.

The worst: Las Vegas parking lot F1 event & Denver c. 1990... Jim, completely forgot about St. Pete... no wonder, it was truly forgettable until now, it's another candidate for sure.

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by Geza Sury

That's interesting! Well, the average speed of the fastest lap set by Niki Lauda was 133.302 kph (82.830 mph), hardly Spa-Francorchamps ;)

Maybe it was just bits of the track he was referring to?

Barry Boor,

You're right about Montjuich not being a street track, San Remo gets my vote therefore !!

[Barry Boor]

Little Chris and I have one big advantage over most members where San Remo is concerned.

Most have seen the Motor Sport article about the track but I have walked it and Chris has seen the video I shot as I walked it. This tends to give us a rather biased view, perhaps, but the video is available to anyone who would like to borrow it.

[Rob G]

My favorites are Monaco, Adelaide, the current Surfers Paradise and the new St. Petersburg. My choices for worst go to Houston, Phoenix, Denver and last year's Miami track. They have changed the Miami track for this year, so they won't have to tiptoe on that skating rink of a parking lot any more. It still looks disappointing, but it should at least be an improvement.

[Wolf]

Fearing to show my lacking knowledge, durst I ask why would Ring be a road track? Wasn't it designed and built as testing and racing track?

I'd say Pescara definitely deserves nomination in best street citcuits (although one could argue it was road & street circuit).

[F1master]

Originally posted by Wolf
Fearing to show my lacking knowledge, durst I ask why would Ring be a road track? Wasn't it designed and built as testing and racing track?

because the ring is officially a one-way i guess

[2F-001]

Despite being a purpose-built racing and test track, the Nordschleife has for a long time also been classified as a tourist toll road and you can, in extreme circumstances, be brought to book under local traffic law when it's open to the public. (They charge you for damaged Armco too!) So you could say it's a public road; but not a 'street circuit', surely?!

jimm -
what on earth do you have against Dijon?? Have you driven it? Apart from the straight being a touch boring, Dijon is a fabulous track... I'd recommend anyone who's interested in track days or circuit driving to go there if the opportunity arises.

[Ray Bell]

If there's a category for best and worst all in one, I'd nominate Southport...

No passing areas, very narrow and bumpy otherwise... but with some dauntingly fast stretches and a handsome 5.7-mile lap.

[fines]

Best - Montjuich, of course. I liked the original Long Beach, but it got progressively worse with the time. And Adelaide was surprisingly fun to drive in Grand Prix computer sim.

Worst - Singen, maybe.

[dmj]

Seattle (GT2 version)...
Oh, real circuits?
Surfer's Paradise and Monaco are my favs.
Can't remember Vegas so no vote for worst one.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by dmj
Seattle (GT2 version)...
Oh, real circuits?
Surfer's Paradise and Monaco are my favs.
Can't remember Vegas so no vote for worst one.

Ah, I love driving the Seattle and Rome GT2 circuits. Got some nice cars in my garage too. They lose some of their challenge in the Pike's Peak Suzuki Escudo or the Espace F1 ;)

[Bernd]

From what I've seen of Oporto it looks impressive.

Monaco would have to be the best there's no contest really.

[fullcourseyellow]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Guia, Macau! I think it's the best street circuit in the world, hands down. It's a great challenge to race on it, and it almost always produces great racing!

[powertrain]

Originally posted by DNQ
I'd be intersted to here your nominations for best street circuits? I'm mostly interested in city street venues rather than open road venues like Bathurst or Spa.

Adelaide, Long Beach, Surfers Paradise, Birmingham (more for the surroundings then the circuit itself) and Monaco feature highly on my list of favourite street circuits, with Canberra and Denver (new circuit) at the total opposite end of the spectrum...

Also Rheims, Mexico City, and in the modern tracks, Montreal.

[BRG]

The best real street tracks used in recent years must be Macao, Pau and Monaco with honourable mentions for Long Beach (Mk1) and Birmingham.

The worst must include Caesar's Palace (Las Vegas), Vancouver (all the layouts), Singen (hey, let's race around this industrial estate!) and the appalling Surfers' Paradise.

[Disco Stu]

I'm surprised there's been no mention of Trois Rivieres. I've always thought it looked cool the way the cars came through the arch.

[maxie]

Las Vegas is a joke. If that parking lot can host F1 races, then what places can't?

[dmj]

Originally posted by petefenelon



Ah, I love driving the Seattle and Rome GT2 circuits. Got some nice cars in my garage too. They lose some of their challenge in the Pike's Peak Suzuki Escudo or the Espace F1 ;)

Seattle in Shelby GT 350 is definitely the most enjoyable car/circuit combination it that game... Although Cobra Daytona coupe at Gruenewald has to be close...

[josh.lintz]

I saw the Montjuich Park in person in 1998; it sure was nice place to drive. But if we don't count it as a "street race", then I'd vote for Adelaide.

I hate to say it, but the latest Miami street course was one of the most absurd race courses I've ever seen. Going around the fountain looks majestic, but the 3-lane Biscayne Blvd. is too narrow for street cars, let alone open-wheeled racing machinery!

(Geez, I thought I was the only GT2 racer left in the entire world. Super Stage R5 and Rome Night are great!)

[dworsham]

the OLD Long Beach baby!

Like to see a Chicago Street GP with straight on Lake Shore Drive and long Monaco-esq tunnels on lower Wacker.

sadly the US seems content to NASCAR it up- eeeh whaw

[D. Heimgartner]

Does the circuit layout for Montjuich still exist? If so, wouldn't this be a great place for CART to showcase their series...

[911]

Best: Original Long Beach (75 - early 80s); Monaco; Surfers; Miami layout in the mid-80s (the one used for IMSA & CART in '95) was pretty decent.

Worst: Phoenix, Detroit, Las Vegas (notice a trend here?)...

[cheesy poofs]

A classic north-american street circuit is Trois-Rivières
The track witnessed some epic battles over its years.

This is where Gilles Villeneuve was discovered in the mid 70's.

[BS Levy]

Although I've never been there, all my Formula Atlantic buddies rave about Trois Rivieres (or are they swayed by thoughts of the legendary French Canadian ladies?). Got to run the vintage "curtain raiser" for the CART finale at Tamiami Park in November of 1985 (took 3rd o/all and 1st in 2-litre in an Alfa AUSCA Duetto behind Bob Snodgrass' rotary-powered Chevron B-16 and Bob Bondurant in a Cobra) and, although I'm sure some parts seemed a bit tight and fiddly for the "real" racecars, it had a lovely flow and the best and smoothest pavement I've ever expericed. Plus the Latin-laden south Florida crowd was marvelously enthusiastic! Too bad it fell off the schedule. Speaking of vintage, the through-Schenley Park Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix is fantastic, as the narrow, shady circuit winds up hills and down through ravines with spectacular, woodsy scenery, old stone walls, bootlace hairpins, a refecting pool, etc. I plan to go back this year.
As to worst, howabout that parking lot monstrosity CART ran at the Meadowlands in yet another sponsor-driven attempt to capture the hearts and minds of a bunch of snooty New Yorkers who couldn't car less about motorsports. Not that you can blame them if you've ever owned or tried to navigate a car in New York City....

[Ray Bell]

I recall Warwick Brown talking about Trois Rivieres, though I'm not sure if he ever raced there... anyone know?

[RJH]

The best Road Circuits? The old Mugello, 60 odd kms of public roads, heat, and hugely knowledgeable Italian crowds. Chimay, for none but the brave, drivers and mechanics, witness David Purleys hat trick of wins with the slipstreaming bunch fanning out down the pit lane. Pau, deceptively quick, Monaco without the poseurs.
The worse? no the least good perhaps, afterall road circuits eclipse all those pupose built horrors. La Chatre 1.5kms, only three proper corners, and a field for a paddock without even a bog.

[Pyry L]

The best street circuit? of the round-the-houses type I would have to say Macau or Pau, very tempted to nominate the Norisring for some reason. Do tracks like the Billown circuit used for the Southern 100 road race, the Pirita-Kose-Kloostrimetsa or the defunct Imatra track count?...I´ve only seen some on-board laps of the Billown circuit but it looks pretty hairy in places.
Worst street track? Phoenix, Detroit, Dallas (especially the one used for CART races).

[Ross Stonefeld]

Best:

Macau - incredibly long and fast, though not very scenic
Detroit - CART version mid 90s. Terrible race, but an insane lap for the drivers
Surfers - Who knew you could go through a chicane so fast
Pau - definately has the 'among the people' feel to the lap.
Vancouver - mid 90s with that mega passing zone at the hairpin in turn 3


Worst:
Changwon Korea - ugh




What category does Savannah and Monterrey Mexico come under? Likewise Montreal and Albert park?

[Ray Bell]

The last two are parks, or park roads, like Parramatta Park was.

[Berner]

One of the worst, if I can get my memory to work, was Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, used in the early (mid?) seventies to stage a F-Atlantic event. I seem to remember they tried to use water-filled barriers instead of concrete. Help someone....

[LittleChris]

Just thought of another bad one - Curacao - Willemstad street circuit as used for a non championship F3000 race in 1985 and won by John Nielson this being the only race held there.

Track looked quite interesting
Map from Darrens site

http://www.silhouet....ks/curacao.html

but :

Little article about it here

http://uk.geocities..../curacao85.html

[RobertS]

Rare footages from Budapest-Népliget 1968-69-70:

http://lepoldsportvi...get_1968_70.wmv