13 replies to this topic

[dmj]

Did anyone thought about using Borgward engine in F1 in 1961? It seemed like one of more suitable and powerful 1.5 litre engines around... I know Borgward factory was just about to close and they probably couldn't manage to build these anymore, in chaotic state as it was... So it is pretty obvious why no one actually used it but... did anyone at least tried? With 170+ HP and good reliability it seemed like a good idea.

[Ray Bell]

It was probably considered a dead end.

The formula was new and it was obvious already in 1960 (with the V6 Ferrari F2) that multi-cylinder engines would soon become dominent.

Even in South Africa there was a preference for Alfas...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by dmj
Did anyone thought about using Borgward engine in F1 in 1961? It seemed like one of more suitable and powerful 1.5 litre engines around... I know Borgward factory was just about to close and they probably couldn't manage to build these anymore, in chaotic state as it was... So it is pretty obvious why no one actually used it but... did anyone at least tried? With 170+ HP and good reliability it seemed like a good idea.

Kurt Kunhke put it in the back of a Lotus 18 (called a BKL -- Borgward-Kunhke-Lotus) to very little effect.

pete

[Vitesse2]

A Borgward-engined Lotus 18 ran in South Africa too (c/n 911), also to no great effect. Best results were two tenth places for Helmut Menzler in the 1961 South African GP (5 laps down in 80) and 1962 Cape GP (3 laps down in 60).

The following season it passed to Vern McWilliams, whose best result was 14th (and last) in heat 1 of the 1962 Natal GP.

[dmj]

Thank you, it seemed obvious that someone had to try it, IIRC in the beggining of 1961 only Ferrari should have more power.

[VDP]

Don't forget that Borward was at the peak in 1958, and got problems to sell Isabella at the end of the fifties, and disapperead beginning in the sixties . Carl Borgward also lost interest in racing, the only results were in monoposto form to the credit of rob Walker and Chris Bristow yeoman Credit coopers but it only lasted one year.
In sport form it was earlier beginning fifties

Robert

[BRG]

Forgive my ignorance, but what was the Borgward engine? Are we talking a production based 4 cylinder 1500cc ? Would that really have been competitive against more specialised products?

[Ray Bell]

Yes, production based...

Borgwards had fuel injection, but I know little else about them.

[dmj]

BRG, Borgward's was production based 4 cylinder engine, raced successfully in F2. Mick Walsh recently drove Borgward RS for Classic and Sportscar (after investigating here: http://www.atlasf1.c...hlight=Borgward ) - after reading that text it occured to me that Borgward engine in F2 trim was more powerfull than any early 1961 engine bar Ferrari's. So it seemed obvious that I should ask, even if I more or less already knew the answer, as Borgward production was to be ceased that same year...

[ry6]

[
Even in South Africa there was a preference for Alfas... [/B][/QUOTE]

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That's probably because they were available from crashed sedans AND they were cheap.

Also they were a performance engine from what was a genuine high performance sedan of the time.

[David Beard]

I reading Behind the Scenes of Motor Racing by Ken Gregory at the moment. He seems to have had a great deal to do with bringing the Borgward motor into F2.

The engine doesn’t sound like a breathed upon saloon car motor, as described by Gregory. DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder, twin plugs per cylinder, Bosch direct fuel injection. Bore & stroke were the same as the Isabella though, at 75 x 84.5mm .
150bhp claimed @ 7500 rpm and good for 8000 rpm.

[ry6]

[A Borgward-engined Lotus 18 ran in South Africa too (c/n 911), also to no great effect. Best results were two tenth places for Helmut Menzler in the 1961 South African GP (5 laps down in 80) and 1962 Cape GP (3 laps down in 60).

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This was reputed to be the engine Moss used in the Cooper-Borgward that raced the January 1960 SAGP.

By the time Menzler got it it was maybe a bit long in the tooth and I don't think it was that easy an engine for a privateer to maintain and tune.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David Beard
.....The engine doesn’t sound like a breathed upon saloon car motor, as described by Gregory. DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder, twin plugs per cylinder, Bosch direct fuel injection. Bore & stroke were the same as the Isabella though, at 75 x 84.5mm .
150bhp claimed @ 7500 rpm and good for 8000 rpm.

I wondered about that... I've never read anything on them anywhere...

So presumably they only really lacked as a racing engine because they had an iron block? Oh, yeah, a nice long stroke... and the maker wasn't there to support them...

[Bjorn Kjer]

Does any of you know the "house" colours of Borgward ??