40 replies to this topic

[logic]

Which is better tyre?
Do I remember Pierre saying during winter test that Ferrari need to be one second quicker to keep in Mchelin runners pace?
Ralf says that Michelin has clear upperhand
Melbourne showed that Michelin was very strong in race, but Bridgestone runners could do one quick lap.
Michelin wet performance is still a bit mystery, but I predict them to be much stronger than last year

[BMW FW22]

much better in race then last year

[HSJ]

IMO Michelin is slightly ahead, but only against non-Ferrari Bstone teams. Ferrari should still have the overall tyre advantage considering the package they get from Bstone, something that McL and Wil can still only dream about. Oh, and ahead only in the races. In qual Bstone is at least an equal, probably slightly ahead. But it is races that matter, so Michelin it is.

[maclaren]

Michelin should be better most occasion, but not by much. Maybe 2-3 tenths.

[miniman]

Australia was an aberration, untill proven otherwise i still give the edge to B'stone

[Amnios]

Michelin still have that 5-8 lap graining problem, until they fix that they will get into trouble this year as there isn't enough time for the teams to run the tyres in.

I agree with HSJ about Michelin being better against non-Ferrari teams but Ferrari will still have the advantage due to their working relationship.

Amnios.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Amnios
Michelin still have that 5-8 lap graining problem, until they fix that they will get into trouble this year as there isn't enough time for the teams to run the tyres in.

Yep, this year the punishment for that is even bigger than before. Hope they fix it soon. I think they've improved in that area though.

[DEVO]

I would think a complete dry race would be required to figure this one out.

[Ricardo F1]

Michelin General vs Bridgestone General or Michelin WillMac against Bridgestone Ferrari? If the former then Michelin, if the latter (especially when the F2003-GA comes out) then Bridgestone.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Michelin General vs Bridgestone General or Michelin WillMac against Bridgestone Ferrari? If the former then Michelin, if the latter (especially when the F2003-GA comes out) then Bridgestone.

Wow, it hasn't even raced yet and already you know.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth
Wow, it hasn't even raced yet and already you know.

Considering the car has been designed around the tyres and the tyres designed around the specifications of the car I would be astounded if Ferrari and Bridgestone have managed to take a step backwards. Wouldn't you?

[Nikolas Garth]

I think it is a safe assumption that the Bridgestones will suit Ferrari better than the other Bridgestone teams.

However Michelin could still produce a better tyre.

When asked about the subject of bespoke tyres, Bridgestone said it was more important to concentrate on making the best possible compound for the respective circuits, than trying to tinker for individual cars.

In respect of last year, the McLaren chassis was problematic and had an underpowered engine(comparatively), the Williams was aerodynamically weak, so I don't know how relevant last year is as any kind of guide for this year(well accept perhaps for Williams who seem to have the same problem(s) again). But if you want to use last year as a guide, Ferrari whilst being the quickest car again in Melbourne, had nothing like the same performance advantage as last year.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth
I think it is a safe assumption that the Bridgestones will suit Ferrari better than the other Bridgestone teams.

They've had a team of engineers at Ferrari and Ferrari have had a team of engineers at Bridgestone for a year all working toward specifically building a car and building a tyre that works perfectly together. A safe assumption? It's absolutely 100% rubber stamp guaranteed my friend, or someone's been wasting a ton of money.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
It's absolutely 100% rubber stamp guaranteed my friend, or someone's been wasting a ton of money.

100% not safe enough for you?

The above though is still a separate issue as to whether or not Bridgestone end up building a better tyre than Michelin do.

I think Bridgestone had the better all round tyre in 2002, but just as McLaren and Williams look likely to swap positions this year, who's to say a similar swap won't happen between Bridgestone and Michelin?

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth
When asked about the subject of bespoke tyres, Bridgestone said it was more important to concentrate on making the best possible compound for the respective circuits, than trying to tinker for individual cars.

Certainly, but F1 at the sharp end is about those last 1-5%, not the last 10-20%. If the Ferrari-Bstone relationship wasn't worth the money and effort they wouldn't do it. It is quite safe to say that Ferrari gets quite a lot from it, otherwise they'd spend the effort in other areas. In fact we can infer from this that the effort spent with Bstone is MORE effective (per dollar, per man-hour, etc.) than some (most?) other areas. So Ferrari gain more per dollar by this method than some (most?) others, and that most likely means McL and Wil. Remember it was tyres that was the only worry Ferrari had prior to 2002 as they knew (and said so, Brawn I can remember) that no matter how good the car, the tyres will have to be there as well.

[JForce]

Originally posted by HSJ
Ferrari should still have the overall tyre advantage considering the package they get from Bstone, something that McL and Wil can still only dream about

Bollocks.

There is absolutell nothing stoping either of those two teams having the same focus and relationship with their tyre supplier. Ferraris may be better at present, but to say Williams and McLaren can only dream of it is wrong.

[POLAR]

What on gods good earth makes you think that we should know the answer?

[gerry nassar]

Maclaren and Williams will undoubtedly have a better tyre this year than they did last year - and their realtionships with the michelin will be streets ahead of where it was - but enjoying the synergy that Ferrari has with Bridgestone is very unlikely. That form of integration is a long way off. Ferrari has been enjoying it for a couple of years now and from reports from Brawn and Byrne and co - the F2003GA is designed around the tyres - not the other way around.

Still we have to wait and see what the MP18 can do.

[Sir Frank]

Difficult to compare, because the two kinds of tyres have totally different characters. The side of the Michelin tyre is built stiffer so it can carry loads more efficiently. Therefore 1 set of Michelins weight 5kgs more than 1 set of Bridgestones. There are +/- in different performance areas. Overall very difficult, in the first race Michelin seemed to have the better tyre.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by JForce


Bollocks.

There is absolutell nothing stoping either of those two teams having the same focus and relationship with their tyre supplier. Ferraris may be better at present, but to say Williams and McLaren can only dream of it is wrong.

Actually there is. Michelin. Pierre has said many times he's not interested in building bespoke tyres for an individual team.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Actually there is. Michelin. Pierre has said many times he's not interested in building bespoke tyres for an individual team.

Then Michelin and McLaren and Williams are ****ed. Kinda.

[Nikolas Garth]

Michelin Have 'Clear' Upper Hand

http://www.f1i.com/a...CLE_498217.html
March 17 16:41

Michelin have come out fighting with 'clearly' a better tyre than its Japanese-made rivals, Ralf Schumacher has insisted.


The BMW-Williams pilot, whose new FW25 racer is shod with the French rubber, refers to the first-ever Michelin one-two-three at Albert Park last weekend.

Despite the changeable weather and a plethora of racing mistakes - notably by Ferrari aces Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello (both on Bridgestones) - Ralf thinks Bibendum's new compounds are the pick of the field.

He says, 'There is still some improvement needed for the wet tyres, but with the dry ones I think that they are clearly better than Bridgestone.'

But at Sepang, scene of this weekend's Malaysian Grand Prix, the wet tread is notoriously needed as the clouds can quickly gather and dump torrential rain on the quick and twisty circuit.

Schumacher doubts if Williams will have an upper hand on Ferrari if the skies turn black.

The German also warns his Oxfordshire-based team ranks not to expect significant gains on Ferrari through strategy; even if the Prancing Horse fudged the Australian race.

'Ferrari is known for their good strategy,' he said. 'Our strategy is not any worse, but we don't gain anything on them there.'

[Scoots]

I'd say that the "Other" BS teams are in much better shape this year than last year, and "The" BS team is a mystery until the F2003-GA comes out.

It's damn near impossible to compare tires without running the same setup on the same car with both mfr's tires. Is the Williams crap, but the tires are great? Did McLaren find huge power or do the tires suit their car much better this year? Or is it some combination? We will never know.

[gerry nassar]

Originally posted by Scoots
I'd say that the "Other" BS teams are in much better shape this year than last year, and "The" BS team is a mystery until the F2003-GA comes out.

It's damn near impossible to compare tires without running the same setup on the same car with both mfr's tires. Is the Williams crap, but the tires are great? Did McLaren find huge power or do the tires suit their car much better this year? Or is it some combination? We will never know.

Yep I agree. At the moment there are far too many variables at play for us to know how good the tyres are.

[TT6]

As mentioned earlier, it's quite hard to isolate the performance of the tires off the whole package especially now when tire compounds may be customised for any given team.

But I hope Michelin is able to produce compounds that make Williams and McLaren competitive against Ferrari. And I have a gut feeling that Michelin will produce some good teams at least for McLaren.

[CatharticF1]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Actually there is. Michelin. Pierre has said many times he's not interested in building bespoke tyres for an individual team.

Bridgestone have said - and would again say the same thing, yet you only believe Michelin.

Why?

[JForce]

Originally posted by CatharticF1


Bridgestone have said - and would again say the same thing, yet you only believe Michelin.

Why?

Because it suits their arguments.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by CatharticF1


Bridgestone have said - and would again say the same thing, yet you only believe Michelin.

Why?

Which is nice but absolute bullshit. Bridgestone have been working with Ferrari engineers and Ferrari with Bridgestone engineers for nearly a year developing a tyre for the F2003. Have you missed the news for the past twelve months?

JForce - shame on you, that's a cheap shot and you know it's bollocks.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
JForce - shame on you, that's a cheap shot and you know it's bollocks.

Word

[CatharticF1]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Which is nice but absolute bullshit. Bridgestone have been working with Ferrari engineers and Ferrari with Bridgestone engineers for nearly a year developing a tyre for the F2003. Have you missed the news for the past twelve months?

Williams and particularly McLaren would (of course) have been doing the same thing. Perhaps you have forgotten that Williams had time *exclusively* on Michelin initially - but presumably got no special treatment ..

I believe that all of the major teams would exert as much pressure as they could to get special tyres, but that both tyre manufacturers would, equally, deny any such narrow focus. Renault, McLaren and Williams have all got plenty of weight to throw around in this respect.

My point is you're being selective.

[Scoots]

Originally posted by CatharticF1


Williams and particularly McLaren would (of course) have been doing the same thing. Perhaps you have forgotten that Williams had time *exclusively* on Michelin initially - but presumably got no special treatment ..

I believe that all of the major teams would exert as much pressure as they could to get special tyres, but that both tyre manufacturers would, equally, deny any such narrow focus. Renault, McLaren and Williams have all got plenty of weight to throw around in this respect.

My point is you're being selective.

Ricardo is not being selective ... the teams are. Ferrari did a revolutionary thing when they went all-in with BS. McLaren left BS, supposedly in part because they were afraid Ferrari would be getting their car data from BS, and that is why neither they not Williams have the kind of relationship with M that Ferrari has with BS.

BS has stated that they are willing to work with any team willing to invest heavily in the process, and so far that's Ferrari full-in and BAR part-in. M has two teams going part-in and both teams are developing their car to suit the same approximate set of tires.

Neither BS nor M has said they WILL NOT make bespoke tires, simply that teams either are unwilling or unable to invest the time, money, and information in the process to do so.

[CatharticF1]

Originally posted by Scoots


Ricardo is not being selective ... the teams are.



Neither BS nor M has said they WILL NOT make bespoke tires, simply that teams either are unwilling or unable to invest the time, money, and information in the process to do so.

I agree with all but your opening sentence .. ! I can think of no reason to believe McLaren wouldn't be attempting the same through the development of their new car.

My issue (particularly this season) is with the throwaway line that Ferrari get 'special' treatment. Ferrari get a benefit not out of proportion with the time and effort they put into it, and their proven performance.

[Scoots]

Originally posted by CatharticF1


I agree with all but your opening sentence .. ! I can think of no reason to believe McLaren wouldn't be attempting the same through the development of their new car.

My issue (particularly this season) is with the throwaway line that Ferrari get 'special' treatment. Ferrari get a benefit not out of proportion with the time and effort they put into it, and their proven performance.

So are you saying that Michelin has denied requests by the teams to get more heavily involved?

[SeanValen]

I should be able to provide a answer once the season has finished, and the results counted up, 1 race for this topic is asking too much of ourselfs, every track represents a new challenge, I'm a advocate of caution and patience at least well into half way stage of the season.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by CatharticF1


Williams and particularly McLaren would (of course) have been doing the same thing. Perhaps you have forgotten that Williams had time *exclusively* on Michelin initially - but presumably got no special treatment ..

I believe that all of the major teams would exert as much pressure as they could to get special tyres, but that both tyre manufacturers would, equally, deny any such narrow focus. Renault, McLaren and Williams have all got plenty of weight to throw around in this respect.

My point is you're being selective.

I'm sorry but you are defacto absoluto ligito absolutely WRONG. Michelin HAVE said they would not be interested in providing bespoke tyres to one individual team. Bridgestone are already doing it with Ferrari. End of story.

[CatharticF1]

Originally posted by Scoots


So are you saying that Michelin has denied requests by the teams to get more heavily involved?

I didn't mean to imply that - no.

I think that both tyre manufacturers want to get the most out of the money they spend and will devote more time to the teams that look likely to offer the best results / prestige / commercial advantage, even national pride. Ultimately, read this as : SALES.

So the fact that Honda are Japanese and Renault are French is significant.

Also of significance, Toyota sell a *lot* of cars and they and Honda in simple commercial terms could command a lot of attention if they were to use more (or threaten less) of that brand of tyres on their production cars.

It's a far from simple recipe, so the trite line that so many trot out, of Ferrari being favoured, is a shallow analysis imo, that typically (but not always) seeks to diminish the worth of the results achieved. Ferrari and Bridgestone both did a great job last year, but even at tracks where Michelin positively shone, the F2002 still won.

[CatharticF1]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


I'm sorry but you are defacto absoluto ligito absolutely WRONG. Michelin HAVE said they would not be interested in providing bespoke tyres to one individual team. Bridgestone are already doing it with Ferrari. End of story.

Pierre Dupasquier said :

'If any one team lined up on the grid with an innovative car, we would be happy to supply them with innovative tyres.'

http://www.racinglin...leview/3212/1/1

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by CatharticF1


Pierre Dupasquier said :

'If any one team lined up on the grid with an innovative car, we would be happy to supply them with innovative tyres.'

http://www.racinglin...leview/3212/1/1

I'll have to pull up the link from last year after they announced they could provide more than one tyre, Pierre stated that they catagorically had no interest in doing so and would not be taking advantage of the new rules. Your quote above depends a lot on what is described as innovative.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


I'll have to pull up the link from last year after they announced they could provide more than one tyre, Pierre stated that they catagorically had no interest in doing so and would not be taking advantage of the new rules. Your quote above depends a lot on what is described as innovative.

Why would you not think his latest comments reflect his latest thoughts, and thus be more relevant?

People often change their minds on issues as they have more time to reflect on matters, or as new information comes to hand. Well some people do . . .

[Scoots]

Originally posted by CatharticF1


I didn't mean to imply that - no.

I think that both tyre manufacturers want to get the most out of the money they spend and will devote more time to the teams that look likely to offer the best results / prestige / commercial advantage, even national pride. Ultimately, read this as : SALES.

So the fact that Honda are Japanese and Renault are French is significant.

Also of significance, Toyota sell a *lot* of cars and they and Honda in simple commercial terms could command a lot of attention if they were to use more (or threaten less) of that brand of tyres on their production cars.

It's a far from simple recipe, so the trite line that so many trot out, of Ferrari being favoured, is a shallow analysis imo, that typically (but not always) seeks to diminish the worth of the results achieved. Ferrari and Bridgestone both did a great job last year, but even at tracks where Michelin positively shone, the F2002 still won.

I didn't meant to imply that I thought Ferrari was being favored, I think they are working harder than anyone else with a willing partner. There are only 2 possibilities I see, either McLaren and Williams have not asked Michelin to get into bed with them, like Ferrari-Bridgestone, or they have asked and Michelin said no thank you. Of the 2 I think the former is the most likely.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth
Why would you not think his latest comments reflect his latest thoughts, and thus be more relevant?

People often change their minds on issues as they have more time to reflect on matters, or as new information comes to hand. Well some people do . . .

I've read most of Pierre's comments that have been part of Michelin's press releases, I can't see anything that says they've changed their minds nor that McLaren or Williams want to spend the money that Ferrari are with Bridgestone.