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Frederico Toselli ? who was he?


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#1 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 10:04

Frederico Toselli died 1933 during practice at the Val de Cuech Climb in France. My source is Erwin Tragatsch: Die großen Rennjahre, pg. 178. This is all I know about the driver, who was a pupil of Ernest Friderich in Nice, like Dreyfus had been before. Toselli sounds Italian or was he Swiss? He drove a Bugatti when he crashed. I also would like to find out more about the Val de Cuech Climb, which took place in 1927, 1933 and possibly in 1932.

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#2 alessandro silva

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 10:44

Fréderic Toselli from Nice, French.
Erroneously called Miro Toselli in Sheldon vol II/III (Miro was an Italian gentleman driver from the 50/60s)

#3 Marcor

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 18:35

The 1932 Val de Cuesch Hillclimb was the 10th edition. It ws organised by the AMC de Salon, near Marseille. Won by Tony Canin (Bugatti T35B). I've data of other editions, more later...

#4 humphries

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 19:20

Hans

Off the top of my head I think Toselli was the son-in-law of Ernest Friderich.

John

#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 21:33

Originally posted by alessandro silva
Fréderic Toselli from Nice, French.
Erroneously called Miro
Toselli in Sheldon vol II/III (Miro was an Italian gentleman driver from the 50/60s) [/B]


Hmm....

Originally posted by humphries
Off the top of my head I think Toselli was the son-in-law of Ernest Friderich.


Well that explains it all...;)

#6 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 22:55

Originally posted by Ray Bell
...Well that explains it all...;)

To me it does not. We are still looking for a date of the event and the day Toselli died. Additionally, more information is always desirable, Ray. :)

#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 23:08

I was referring to the coincidence of the errors, Hans...

Seeing as there's a thread about regarding the spelling of Friderich.

#8 Marcor

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 00:28

I've some gaps about this event which looks very regional, at least at first.

I have no records about the first 2 editions. Then I have sometimes the dates as 1924 and 1926, with some class winners but no outright winner.

15 June 1924, org: MC de Salon, some class winners:
Racing cars 4 L: Anezin (Peugeot),
Sportcars 3500 cc: Del Ry (Turcat-Mery),
Sportcars 3 L: Grosson (Turcat-Mery),
Sportcars 2100 cc: Bouillon (Vinot-Deguingand),
Sportcars 1500 cc: Cavassa (Peugeot),
Sportcars 1100 cc: Olivier (M.A.S.E.),
Touring cars 1100 cc: Castellan (Renault),
Cyclecars 1100 cc single-seater: Annibal (Amilcar),
Cyclecars 750 cc 2-seaters: Berthe (Sénéchal).

1925: no results available.

24 October 1926, near Salon, some class winners:
Racing cars 1500 cc: Dufour (Bugatti),
Racing cars 1100 cc: Orello (Amilcar),
Racing cars 3 L: Castellan (Renault),
Sportscars 1100 cc: Jourdan (Salmson),
Touring cars 2 L: Giraud (Bugatti),
Touring cars 1500 cc: Roger (Chenard & Walcker),
Touring cars 1100 cc: Bouchet (Sénéchal),
Cyclecars 1100 cc: Vilhet (Morgan).

2 October 1927, org: AC de Marseilles, 4.2 km, 1st = Edward Bret, Bugatti T35C 4855, 3 m 04 s 3/5.

12 August 1928, org: AMC de Salon, 4.2 km, 6th edition, no results available.

in 1929, no results available.

in 1930, 1st Racing cars 1100 cc: Rolland (Amilcar C6).

14 May 1931, org: AC de Salon, 1st = Morand, Bugatti.
The 1931 Val de Cuesch Hillclimb was the secound round of the Provence week, the other round being Les Alpilles Hillclimb, 10 May, org: AM Club St-Rémois, 1st = Aristide Lumachi, Bugatti T35B 4942, 94.2 km/h, and third round being Le Camps Hillclimb, 17 May, org: AC de Marseilles.

22 May 1932, org: AMC de Salon, 1st = Tony Canin, Bugatti T35B 4942, 89.473 km/h, 10th edition.

30 April or 1 May 1933, 1st = Marcel Lehoux, Bugatti, 89.863 km/h, new record.

in 1934: I just know that Zanelli was 2nd (Nacional Pescara).

#9 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 09:32

Marc - Thank you very much for your hill climb information, which is very much appreciated here in Honolulu.;) I plugged the data into my list but the credit is gone to you. :)

1931 Le Camps Hillclimb on 17 May? I have as date the 24. May from the report of AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #45, p. 11, published Friday, May 29, 1931. I only have my handwritten notes:

"Last Sunday, the A.C. Marseille organized the famous Camp Climb at Marseille. Lumachi (Bugatti 2,3) did FTD in 2m18.2s at 104.196 km/h. Course length is 4 km." [I only copied racecar results.]

"Results Racing cars
2m18.2s --- Lumachi (Bugatti 2.3)
2m23.2s --- Toselli (Bugatti (1.5)
2m30.2s --- Cormotti (Salmson 1.1)
2m43.2s --- Tritter (Tordo over 3.0)
3m02.8s --- Calmes (Rosengart 750 cc)
3m31.4s --- Kaer (Georges-Irat 2.0)"

#10 humphries

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 16:00

Some more information on Val de Cuech, all Bugatti except 1935. (kph)

1/10/1927 Edward Bret 35C 3’ 04.6
12/8/1928 Rene Lamy 35C 3’ 17.2
1929 Was it held?
1/6/1930 “Tecla” 1.5 s/c 2’ 55.4
1931 Federico Toselli 39A 2’ 57.4 (86.24)
22/5/1932 Antoine Canin 35B (89.47)
1933 Marcel Lehoux 51 2’ 50.6 (89.68)
6/1934 Paul Rolland 51 2’ 51.6 (89.16)
2/6/1935 Juan Zanelli Nacional Pescara 2’ 45.0

I think this was the last pre-war event; the next one I have is in 1952 when “Pagnibon” won.

Marc, like you I have no results, or just information on class wins, for the events prior to 1927.
The 1934 and 1935 winner is confirmed in “El Automovil en Espana” by Pablo Gimeno Valledor. Zanelli was 2nd in 1934.

I have no idea who “Tecla” was but I would not be surprised if it was Toselli or at least someone in the same car used by him in 1931. Ernest Friderich always had access to the potent cars not being used by the works. Although French I think Toselli had Italian ancestry and his name was Federico not Fred.

Whilst mentioning pseudonyms do you think that Louis Alexis No 37 at Rheims in 1926 could possibly be Chiron? Before I hooked up to this forum I think a thread was dedicated to racing pseudonyms. Do you know under what title?

John

#11 Vitesse2

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Posted 20 March 2003 - 16:11

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=15916
and
http://www.atlasf1.c...s=&threadid=988

:)

But Humphries, can you shed any light on the mysterious Juan Zanelli, the alleged Chilean diplomat?

#12 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 05:44

Two points need some clarification.
1 – Which one is the correct spelling, Val de Cuesch (with “sch”) or Val de Cuech (with “ch”)? All my sources spell the place as “Cuech”.
2 – Since time and speed is available for 1931, 33 and 34, I could calculate the course length for Val de Cuech/ Cuesch, which was 4.250 km for those years. This length would most logically apply also for the in between-year 1932 and possibly also for 1935. For 1927 and 1928 we have a course length of 4.2 km, but what is now the correct length? Was it always 4.250 km in length or were the early years shorter at 4.200 km?

#13 Marcor

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 18:24

VAL DE CUECH, without "S", sorry for the misspelling...

I will check if I also have average speed for my 1927 (and previous years) data. 4.2 km or 4.25 km, this is possibly just a round problem.

#14 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 21:42

A couple of things.

1- "Tecla" was the name given commonly to the racetype Bugattis built to be sold to privateers (opposite to works cars).
Hence I don't think it was a pseudonym for somebody.

2- Ernest Friderich had actually a daughter, Renée, but she did not marry anyone for she was killed, still a bachelor and aged 20, in the 1934 Paris-St.Raphaël rally.
Had he another daughter, in order to be Toselli's father-in-law ? That's a thing to explore.
BTW he also had a son, Paul, who raced in 1946-1947 without any success.

#15 dmj

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 22:20

Jimmy,

thank you for clarification of "Tecla" issue - it was one of misteries I tried to solve some 10-12 years ago, when no info on such subjects could be find anywhere (at least at Croatia), and later simply forgot about it!

#16 humphries

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 11:27

Jimmy

As you know the "Tecla", or Course Imitation Bugatti, designated the 35A, was a cheaper, simplified version of the 35. It was a 2.O car and not supercharged. The last ones were built in 1927. Apparently the nickname "Tecla" was used to describe this car as the name "Tecla" was the name given to cultured pearls that were popular at the time.

The winner of the 1930 Val de Cuech hill climb was driving a 1500cc Bugatti in the racing car class. I have the full results. The fact that he ( or she! ) beat Aristide Lumachi in a full house 35B by 3 seconds suggests that the car and/or the driver was someone special. The 2 litre sports car class was won by Parker in a Bugatti some 17 seconds behind "Tecla". Why this pseudonym was selected is a puzzle. Advertising, a female driver, or what?

I suspect this car was a 39A and the driver was none other than Rene Dreyfus. Dreyfus worked with Ernest Friderich at this time. He won a number of hillclimbs around the Nice area in 1930 after his racing career was put on hold after he had fallen foul of Ettore. This is described in his book " My Two Lives". Toselli used a 39A to win the 1931 Val de Cuech.

Like I said, my initial reaction was that Toselli was related to Friderich but I cannot remember the source. How many sons and daughters did Friderich have? Jimmy, I hope you can solve the mystery of all this!

#17 Marcor

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Posted 23 March 2003 - 14:55

This is from "Le Petit Parisien", Monday May 1st, 1933.

Salon, 30 April:

During practice for the Val de Cuech Hillclimb, the driver Toselli, trying to avoid a lorry, did a swerve and his car turned over against a rock. The accident occurred at the bend of Fouque.

The mechanic, Jacques Peltran, was killed. The driver Toselli has a fractured skull and his state was hopeless.



Nothing about the race itself... as usual.

#18 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 24 March 2003 - 03:46

Marc - thank you for that added information. It changes the picture somewhat.

#19 humphries

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 18:17

Some more information about Federico Toselli. In 1931 he raced the rare 39A in a number of races, winning at Avignon and Grenoble before crashing at Comminges and then again at Monza.

An update for the Circuit du Dauphine for those who own the Black Book Vol 2 (p297) and have not already made the correction. Toselli was in Friderich's car and Veyron and Angwerd were team-mates but driving 4 cylinder 37A Bugattis. Toselli won the race and made fastest lap in 2 min 37 secs. Besides "Helle-Nice" in her 35, Veyrat, Durand, Langoele, Moulin, Abit and Lamy ( not Jamy but dna ) were all in 35 unsupercharged 2.0 Bugattis as well. The others were as stated except it is Gallay not Golay and Rey was in another rare 39A. Ralph was dna.

In second place in the race was Pierre Rey not Ralph.

Of the retirements Durand completed 6 laps, Langeole 10. Givaudan 13 and Veyron 19. Rey finished 2nd one lap behind Toselli with the next 3 another lap down. Angwerd led after the first lap followed by Veyron, Toselli, Itier and Moulin. Veyron then moved into the lead with Toselli closing up and taking the lead as Veyron had to make a pit stop. Eventually Veyron retired as Rey came up through the field. Toselli won comfortably, with Rey a distant second despite losing the bonnet off his car.

Source Le "Petit Daphinois", 3 August 1931 plus snippets from other sources.

Glancing down I see the AVUSrennen report on the opposite page and a mention of Sue Munday. For all those interested in motor-racing research I would like to tell you about Sue Munday.

When the initial research was undertaken by the F1 Register group it became obvious that most of the necessary detailed information was to be found outside the UK. That meant for Paul trips abroad to places like the Biscaretti. I dropped lucky. Sue Munday worked at my local library and was responsible, amongst other things, for the international loans section. Despite the red tape she was able to get books and runs of magazines for me from all over Europe. Not only that but she allowed me to take them home for perusal.

The cost of all this was considerable, not to me particularly, but to her designated budget. She told me that if her superiors ever found out that just one borrower was using up most of her budget she would have some explaining to do. Jokingly I told her that the money was there to be spent, that I was a long-time ratepayer, I was keeping her in a job, it was a noble cause and in any case it was Paul Sheldon's fault. She endured my never-ending requests with remarkable patience and good humour. Sue came to the conclusion that the F1 Register people were mad, which was rich coming from her!

Her partner had taken it upon himself to locate, log and photograph every species of lizard and gecko etc in Europe. They spent their holidays in the remoter parts of Europe searching for these reptiles and apparently there are hundreds and hundreds of them. One year they were in some hot, dusty hills in the Balkans looking under rocks and stones in a region where the Serbs and Croats were involved in a full scale war. And she said we were mad!

Sue was a fitness fanatic and it came as a great shock when she was diagnosed with cancer and died shortly afterwards. Her concern was only for her partner. She was still in her thirties. Sue Munday was a lovely person. At times there is little justice in this world. Remembering her is still emotional but she was, like everbody else, more than just a footnote.

John

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#20 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 March 2003 - 08:34

John - thanks for the Toselli addition. The Sue Munday story makes me lost in thought about a sister I once had -same age- fallen a victim to cancer.

#21 Marcor

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 18:12

This was from L'Etoile Belge, Monday 8 May 1933.

Friday evening, Toselli died as a result of a diabetic gangrene. Last Sunday he was thrown out his racing car after a swerve.

So 2 conclusions
1)- The date of the crash: Sunday 30 April 1933
2)- The date of the death: Friday 5 may 1933.

#22 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 21:59

Mark - Thank you very much. What I like about your research is your persistence, the ability to follow up and not just drop the subject. This characteristic sometimes produces different results as we have just seen. Great work! Thank you!

#23 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 16:07

Can we establish whether his first name was actually Fréderic or Federico? Alessandro and Hans seem to favour the French name, John the Italian one. His nationality isn't entirely clear either, although perhaps Swiss looks favourite.

:)