When most people think about who makes the aluminum engine blocks for the Fuel (T/F & F/C) cars Keith Black comes to mind. However it seems that Rodeck blocks have become very pervasive in this class of cars. It's not easy to tell exactly how pervasive in that the car specs. some times list their engines by the name of the Head manufacturer and some time by the Block manufacturer. For instance some head manufacturers are BAE, Alan Johnson, Keith Black, Venney and maybe some others. BAE also makes blocks. In most cases that I've seen there will be either BAE, Johnson or Venney heads on either a Rodeck or a Keith Black block.
In any event because the problem of breaking Rods punching thru the block became such a problem Rodeck developed a forged block. I suppose F1 blocks are castings. Any one know about any other forged blocks used in racing?
Forged Racing Engine Blocks
Started by
Top Fuel F1
, Mar 19 2003 21:26
9 replies to this topic
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#2
Ray Bell
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Posted 19 March 2003 - 22:54
I'd imagine that F1 blocks are made in the same manner as Peugeot and Renault aluminium blocks for their production cars...
And others, of course...
The are cast, but with very thin walls achieved by having dies for the molds instead of sand molds as used to be used in production.
And others, of course...
The are cast, but with very thin walls achieved by having dies for the molds instead of sand molds as used to be used in production.
#3
Halfwitt
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Posted 20 March 2003 - 12:50
F1 engines I've seen appear to be sand-cast. I couldn't say if this applies across the board, but I'm pretty sure if Ilmor / Mercedes are doing this (this is one of the engines that I've seen), then probably most other companies are also.
#4
alexbiker
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Posted 20 March 2003 - 13:22
Recent documentary footage on UK television of the BMW engine facility showed a large amount of computerised machining of a (presumably) cast block.
Don't know how they cast it though!
Alex
Don't know how they cast it though!
Alex
#5
SimonW
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Posted 20 March 2003 - 16:43
I think all F1 blocks and heads are sand-cast, although using quite sophisticated casting techniques. Many are cast in moulds filled from below, using low-pressure techniques, and some use special sands for dimensional accuracy and control of solidification. Over the alst ten years there has been a considerable increase in casting complexity, both to put material only were it is neede and to cast-in complex oil and water passages.
#6
Top Fuel F1
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Posted 20 March 2003 - 22:48
I imagine that the need for a Forged Block may only have the expense justification in Fuel (T/F & F/C). The process is quite unique: The block begins as a 14 inch 24 inch bar of 6061 aluminum before forging it into it's basic shape. The forging weighs 375 pounds when Rodeck receives it, and ultimately it gets down to 115 pounds without sleeves. The raw forging starts its processing in a Cincinnati Machine HPC-630XT Horizontal Machining Center, where it is qualified and rough machined on three different planes, reducing its weight to 225 pounds. The HPC-630XT powered by the Siemens A2100 CNC is specially configured for high-torque machining and is particularly suited for roughing operations.
After heat-treating, the forging moves to an APC Cell using another HPC-630XT Horizontal Machining Center outfitted with special fixtures unique to Rodeck. Rodeck has designed pyramid-shaped fixtures that mount two engine blocks horizontally by the semi-finished surface of one of the V8 cylinder head banks on each block. By bolting the cylinder bank surfaces to the 45º pyramid, the pan rail is tipped vertically to the machine spindle face so both ends and the bottoms of the two blocks can be machined on a single pallet, in a single operation.
Taking another unique step, Rodeck stands the blocks on a specially designed tombstone pan-rail to pan-rail for profiling, final shaping and machining the head bolts. During this third operation on the HPC-630XT, all lifter bores, magneto and distributor bores are finish machined.
The blocks’ completed cylinder bores, deck surfaces, sleeve registers and other final detail operations are then finished on a Cincinnati Machine Lancer VMC-1500 Vertical Machining Center with a 50 taper spindle.
A third facet of the block's production is done on the A2100 CNCs on the Cincinnati machines are programmed with offsets, all of which are set by probes. They move the program to the part, instead of moving the part to the program.
The typical cycle time of a forged block on Cincinnati machines is about 12 hours, which is highly efficient when 260 pounds of aluminum are being removed.
The 375-pound block forging is the largest mass forging APP (American Precision Products) had ever done. So they had to come up with a unique solution—use a single die and forge the block with three strokes of an existing 8,000-ton hydraulic press.
The die is FX2 die steel, heat treated to 40 Rockwell and machined by a Cincinnati HPC-630XT Horizontal Machining Center. As the die cavity is machined, the HPC-630XT also bores the die pine holes in line.
By the way, the Heads made by Alan Johnson start as 110 lb. billets of 6061 aluminum and are CNC machined down to 32 lbs. in three separate operations.
After heat-treating, the forging moves to an APC Cell using another HPC-630XT Horizontal Machining Center outfitted with special fixtures unique to Rodeck. Rodeck has designed pyramid-shaped fixtures that mount two engine blocks horizontally by the semi-finished surface of one of the V8 cylinder head banks on each block. By bolting the cylinder bank surfaces to the 45º pyramid, the pan rail is tipped vertically to the machine spindle face so both ends and the bottoms of the two blocks can be machined on a single pallet, in a single operation.
Taking another unique step, Rodeck stands the blocks on a specially designed tombstone pan-rail to pan-rail for profiling, final shaping and machining the head bolts. During this third operation on the HPC-630XT, all lifter bores, magneto and distributor bores are finish machined.
The blocks’ completed cylinder bores, deck surfaces, sleeve registers and other final detail operations are then finished on a Cincinnati Machine Lancer VMC-1500 Vertical Machining Center with a 50 taper spindle.
A third facet of the block's production is done on the A2100 CNCs on the Cincinnati machines are programmed with offsets, all of which are set by probes. They move the program to the part, instead of moving the part to the program.
The typical cycle time of a forged block on Cincinnati machines is about 12 hours, which is highly efficient when 260 pounds of aluminum are being removed.
The 375-pound block forging is the largest mass forging APP (American Precision Products) had ever done. So they had to come up with a unique solution—use a single die and forge the block with three strokes of an existing 8,000-ton hydraulic press.
The die is FX2 die steel, heat treated to 40 Rockwell and machined by a Cincinnati HPC-630XT Horizontal Machining Center. As the die cavity is machined, the HPC-630XT also bores the die pine holes in line.
By the way, the Heads made by Alan Johnson start as 110 lb. billets of 6061 aluminum and are CNC machined down to 32 lbs. in three separate operations.
#7
marion5drsn
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Posted 21 March 2003 - 02:32
Top Fuel F 1, as I was reading all the steps of maching the block of metal my wallet was doing flip-flops in anticipation of paying the bill on this much work. It is very likely that the blocks don't change dimensions very much as the programming would be astronomical. Not to mention the inspection charges. You didn't mention how much 3 to 5 axis inspection machines cost and how much they are used.
One thing that wasn't mentioned is that sand casting and their use in F-1 blocks. I don't think that in the change from one type of block to another that the use of forged blocks would be as expense as a lot of people think, as the making of patterns and so forth is very expense and it seems to me that it would be just as cheap to machine them from the solid. After all how many do they make in a year anyway?
They, in my estimation, turn crankshafts from the solid. Cylinder heads may be a different story but there is plenty of machining on them also. The intake and exhaust passages are machined from the excess even on a lot of N.A.S.C.A.R. parts I believe.
I called S.C.A.T. enterprises the other day and was surprised by some of his statements about maching cranks from the solid billet. The process is not as expense as I thought in that case. The process of machining a V-8 crank is $2,000 and even if you do other cranks special it is in lots of ten. At least if I heard him correctly!
Yours, M.L. Anderson
One thing that wasn't mentioned is that sand casting and their use in F-1 blocks. I don't think that in the change from one type of block to another that the use of forged blocks would be as expense as a lot of people think, as the making of patterns and so forth is very expense and it seems to me that it would be just as cheap to machine them from the solid. After all how many do they make in a year anyway?
They, in my estimation, turn crankshafts from the solid. Cylinder heads may be a different story but there is plenty of machining on them also. The intake and exhaust passages are machined from the excess even on a lot of N.A.S.C.A.R. parts I believe.
I called S.C.A.T. enterprises the other day and was surprised by some of his statements about maching cranks from the solid billet. The process is not as expense as I thought in that case. The process of machining a V-8 crank is $2,000 and even if you do other cranks special it is in lots of ten. At least if I heard him correctly!
Yours, M.L. Anderson
#8
hydra
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Posted 21 March 2003 - 17:04
what about extruded blocks? There's a company in NZ that has an experimental one up and running, and it looks good... Look it up on google or something. What would be the disadvantage of running one?
#9
Ray Bell
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Posted 21 March 2003 - 20:43
Machining cylinder blocks from solid is one of the means Don Wright has of making a living these days...
Don built a Citroen Light 15 special to race way back in the fifties, these days he makes replacement Lancia Lamda blocks, they being machined in two pieces and bolted together. Then the external surfaces are blasted (can't remember if it's with beads or walnut shell) to give the appearance of a casting. The joint line disappears in this process.
Don built a Citroen Light 15 special to race way back in the fifties, these days he makes replacement Lancia Lamda blocks, they being machined in two pieces and bolted together. Then the external surfaces are blasted (can't remember if it's with beads or walnut shell) to give the appearance of a casting. The joint line disappears in this process.
#10
SimonW
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Posted 22 March 2003 - 11:28
Machining an F1 block from solid (or a forging) is a very different matter to doing a dragster. The water cooling jackets and passages are more complex and of course weight saving is now crucial. The same applies to heads, but more so. There are many internal surfaces and passages in both that just could not be machined. I presume that T/F and F/C blocks are made from forgings because of the considerably higher mechanical properties available from wrought aluminium.
Casting tooling (patterns and coreboxes) for F1 cylinder blocks are not that expensive, and are cheaper than head tooling. They can also be made very quickly - for example see http://www.beckerccc...fast_timing.htm
Cranks are a different matter. As far as I know, they have always been machined from solid, as much as anything because of the time required to make forging dies.
Casting tooling (patterns and coreboxes) for F1 cylinder blocks are not that expensive, and are cheaper than head tooling. They can also be made very quickly - for example see http://www.beckerccc...fast_timing.htm
Cranks are a different matter. As far as I know, they have always been machined from solid, as much as anything because of the time required to make forging dies.
