34 replies to this topic

[Kpy]

Can anyone help with information on the Rover-BRM at Le Mans in 1963 and 1965?

All information will be gratefully received, but I’m particularly interested in the power outputs and the way the turbine actually worked.

Thank for any help you can offer.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Christopher - when I saw your post I went immediately to my bookshelves and pulled out Tony Rudd's book. I remembered that he had material on this - but after looking it over carefully there is not as much data here as I recalled.

Really nothing too detailed on power outputs (he does quote 150 hp) and other things that you really want. He does say that the engine weighed 90 pounds (41 kg) complete. Most of his comments are on developing the chassis and eventually sorting out handling problems at the LeMans test day. Nice bit here on Richie Ginther solving aerodynamic lift problems by suggesting fitting of 'an enormous duck tailed spoiler' (this was 1963).

[Roger Clark]

THe following (and more) comes from theDirectory of Classic Prototype and Grand Touring Cars by Anthony Pritchard:

"The Rover gas-turbine was a two-shaft, free power unit, in fact built for industrial purposes. It consisted of a gasifier section, turbine and compressor, and a power output section. The compressor turned at 65,000 rpm, the power turbo at 43,000 rpm and developed about 150 bhp".

This was in 1963. In 1964 (when the car appeared at the test day but not the race: "the engine was fitted with a heat-exchanger which was said to increas power and vastly improve fuel consumption"

He also says ta the BRM part was based on a P25 chassis and had a rear de Dion located by a Watts linkage. I thought it was based on a P57 and had independent suspension.

[Geoff E]

Probably worth checking this site more thoroughly (than I did) :- http://www.rover.org...es/jet/jet5.htm

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
He also says ta the BRM part was based on a P25 chassis and had a rear de Dion located by a Watts linkage. I thought it was based on a P57 and had independent suspension.

It was built up on the chassis of the original P57, P571, which Ginther crashed at Monaco in 1962.

[Kpy]

Thank you all. That’s been a great help.

[Doug Nye]

If you can hold on for just a few weeks there's a book coming out which offers more detail than anybody sane would want to know about the Rover-BRM programme, its derivation, manufacture, devlopment and running....

DCN

[dretceterini]

I've always wondered how that car would have worked with an internal combustion motor

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
If you can hold on for just a few weeks there's a book coming out which offers more detail than anybody sane would want to know about the Rover-BRM programme, its derivation, manufacture, devlopment and running....

DCN

Thanks Doug, but I'm translating an article from the French to a Tuesday deadline!!
You know how it is :

[Tim Murray]

The following was obtained from an article on the Rover-BRM by Harold Hastings in Motor magazine dated 25 September 1965:

The engine (Model 25/150/R) of the 1965 car used a single centrifugal compressor stage driven (via a shaft) by a single centrifugal turbine. Between the compressor and turbine the air passed through the combustion chamber. This 'gas generator' section had a nominal maximum speed of 65 000 rpm. The power turbine consisted of a single axial stage with a nominal maximum speed of 39 000 rpm.

All this was as on the 1963 car. The major new innovations were the heat exchangers, which improved fuel consumption by transferring waste heat from the exhaust gases to the incoming inlet air. Two large thick discs were made from a ceramic material developed by Corning and formed into a honeycomb so that gases could pass through them in an axial direction. These discs rotated slowly (15 rpm). Each disc was arranged so that one sector of it was in the path of the incoming air, whilst another sector intercepted the hot exhaust gases. Heat from the latter was thus absorbed by the ceramic material and transferred to the inlet air when that sector of the disc rotated into the inlet airstream. These heat exchangers reduced the exhaust gas temperature by up to 370 degrees Celsius and greatly improved fuel consumption, especially under part-load conditions.

[Doug Nye]

Kpy - briefly, the crucial feature of the Rover-BRM programme was its last-minute nature, dropped into Bourne's lap around Christmas 1962 - at a time when concentration was almost total upon winning the Formula 1 World Championship, while spare capacity was devoted to development of the first monocoque F1 BRM. Sir Alfred Owen insisted that the gas turbine Le Mans demo car should be produced in a programme superimposed upon F1 plans for '63. The deal effectively destroyed BRM's carefully laid plans to defend their World title with a full team of monocoques which would be proven in the opening non-Championship races of the new season.

The original P57 Formula 1 frame was cut in half both crosswise and lengthwise and 'spread' to two-seat sports width and to accommodate the gas turbine engine in the rear. The roadster body was 'styled' to match LM regs by Aubrey Woods working at Weslake Resarch, BRM's sub-contracted advanced projects unit, at Rye in Sussex. A shapely coupe body was drawn at the same time. This shapely body was not used in the 1964 development of the car, which used the definitive pretty bodywork styled by David Bache of Rover. The Coupe was built upon a heavily modified development of the '00' car's roadster body used in 1963. The back end of the frame was sawn off and replaced by entirely new structure. Rear suspension was modified along the lines of the new parallel-link suspension intended for the new-genration doughnut tyres of 1964. Howevr, they were tailored to 13" wheels and of course 15s would be preferred for Le Mans.

LM '64 was a cock-up, the car being damaged when the Land-Rover towing it on a trailer jack-knifed and crashed on the way home. The regenerative engine was in any case developed late so the intended entry for LM '64 was scrubbed. The car was then reparied and further developed for LM 1965 when it actually raced with the regenerative engine installed, but the ceramic heat-exchanger discs were damaged as was an impeller turbine by foreign bodies passing through the system. They had to de-tune the engine to control temperatures, and detonations in the engien bay really rather detuned Stewart and Hill. In effect they nursed the car home with around 135bhp on tap.

Hope this helps?

DCN

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Doug Nye

Hope this helps?

DCN

It does. Thanks Doug.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Technical Specifications (1965)

PRODUCTION
Development period : 1962-65
Number built : 1 car (original open-top car rebodied for '64 with coupé body)
DESIGN TEAM
Chassis : Tony Rudd
Body : William Towns
CHASSIS
Type : Multi-tubular space frame (widened '61 BRM P57 F1 chassis)
Body : Aluminium panels built by Motor Panels Coventry, Ltd.
Dragcoefficient : 0.32
ENGINE
Model : Rover Gas Turbines Ltd. 2S/150R
Type : Single centrifugal compressor, single radial inflow turbine, single axial power-turbine with Owens Corning ceramic heat exchangers. Single combustion chamber.
Capacity : Equivalent to 1600cc as per FIA regulations.
Max Power : 126 bhp @ 63500 rpm
Max Torque : 267 lbs./ft (362 Nm) at 0 rpm (power-turbine)
Max Compressor rpm : 64000
Max Power Turbine rpm : 47000
Starter : Electric Motor
Ignition : High Energy Ignitor
Fuel System : Piston Fuel Pump with Centrifugal Governor and Temperature Control
Other Applications : Nimrod air compressor, HS748 APU, HD2 Hovercraft, Rover P6 Turbine Saloon
TRANSMISSION
Gearbox : Single-speed B.R.M with neutral and reverse.
SUSPENSION
Front : Unequal length wishbones, Armstrong dampers, anti-roll bar.
Rear : Single top link, two parallel links, Armstrong dampers, coil springs, anti-roll bar.
BRAKES
Front : 11" Dunlop
Rear : 10" Dunlop
WHEELS
Front and rear : 15" Light Alloy Centre Knock Off Dunlop
TYRES
Front : 5.50J x 15" Dunlop Racing
Rear : 6.50J x 15" Dunlop Racing
STEERING
Type : B.R.M. Rack and Pinion
PERFORMANCE
Top speed : 229 km/h - 142 mph
0-60 mph : 11.3 Seconds
30-50 mph : 4.0 Seconds
50-70 mph : 5.4 Seconds
Fuel consumption : 14.2 mpg overall (Esso Blue)
DIMENSIONS
Weight : 823 kg
Fuel tank : 24 Imp gallons (109 Litres)

[Catalina Park]

I just found a picture of a special transporter made to carry the car to Le Mans in 1965.
The transporter has front wheel drive and kneeling rear suspension so the car could easily be unloaded.
I wonder if this transporter came out of the problems in 64 that Doug mentioned above.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
[DESIGN TEAM
Chassis : Tony Rudd
Body : William Towns
[

I don't think so.... but yes, the kneeling transporter was developed after the embarrassment of '64.

DCN

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Technical Specifications (1965)

PRODUCTION
Development period : 1962-65
Number built : 1 car (original open-top car rebodied for '64 with coupé body)
DESIGN TEAM
Chassis : Tony Rudd
Body : William Towns

William Towns?? Surely not. Such pretty designs from his hand were few and far between.

Whilst filing a round bar of steel into a hexagonal cold chisel (a soul destroying exercise for apprentices) in the training school at Pressed Steel Fisher Cowley one day in 65 or 66, I was very easily distracted when the Rover BRM whistled by on the by-pass.

[Rainer Nyberg]

It was information found on the net, obviously erroneous...

I will update my files accordingly...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David Beard
.....Whilst filing a round bar of steel into a hexagonal cold chisel (a soul destroying exercise for apprentices) in the training school at Pressed Steel Fisher Cowley one day in 65 or 66, I was very easily distracted when the Rover BRM whistled by on the by-pass.

Keep your mind on your work, lad!

Only 150bhp... can that be true? It must have been a very efficient car then...

[Doug Nye]

Rover 2S/150 gas turbine engine for 1963 Rover-BRM - continuous rated hp at 60degsF = 150

60,000 compressor rpm (indicated) related to 40,000 power turbine rpm (146mph road speed).

Post-race the installed engine was found to be developing 123bhp at the gearbox.

The regenerative (ceramic heat-exchanger) engine used in 1965 was tested at 140bhp max at 1190degsKelvin and 62,700rpm - pre-race.

Postrace - in which the engine's impeller was found to have lost three of its 17 splitter vanes, had two more cracked and bent, and a number of small pieces of aluminium debris were found embedded in the heat exchanger disc cold faces - it was estimated that the Rover-BRM Coupe completed the 24-Hour race with "about 80 horsepower...".

The fact that it averaged 98.8mph for the duration suggests that the shape was - indeed - quite efficient.

DCN

[Dennis Hockenbury]

What became of this car?

After reading DCN's Vol. 2 epic, this was an interesting car of which I really did not know much about.

I will re-read the epic, as my noodle is swimming with all of the facts and figures. Perhaps I can just breeze through on the second go.

[Lotus23]

I recall hanging around the Rover-BRM pits during the chilly spring practice session in '63. Took a few B&W photos, a couple of which show a certain Mr. G. Hill warming his feet by sticking them into the 7" x 7" (approx) exhaust atop the recently-run turbine. Big smiles by all present!

I have a scanner: one of these days, I'll track down some Gen X kid who can show me how to post these photos here!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Lotus23
I recall hanging around the Rover-BRM pits during the chilly spring practice session in '63. Took a few B&W photos, a couple of which show a certain Mr. G. Hill warming his feet by sticking them into the 7" x 7" (approx) exhaust atop the recently-run turbine. Big smiles by all present!

I have a scanner: one of these days, I'll track down some Gen X kid who can show me how to post these photos here!

E-mail them to me and I'll gladly host them!

RichardVitesse@aol.com

[paulhooft]

It that time our dutch Newspaper De Telegraaf Wrote:

Graham Hill reed de Tribune wagen naar de 5e plaats..

Translated in English:

Graham Hill Drove the Grandstand car...
to 5th place ...

Still a big laugh...

But De Telegraaf has never been a great newspaper..

Paul hooft

[Vitesse2]

Well worth the wait, I think! Taken on April 7th 1963 at the Le Mans Practice Day, before the advent of fireproof socks.





The third picture shows NGH with Wild Willy Mairesse - anyone who has Steve Small's book (2nd edition at least) can compare this picture to the portrait of Willy. He's wearing the same hat and (I think) the same coat! I can't decide whether that's Jo Siffert behind Graham though: whover he is he looks awfully serious!

[Pedro 917]

Originally posted by Vitesse2 :

I can't decide whether that's Jo Siffert behind Graham though

I'm sure it's not Jo Siffert ! Must be a fan.....

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
I'm sure it's not Jo Siffert ! Must be a fan.....

I agree. For conclusive proof, look at the chin - this chap hasn't got Seppi's characteristic cleft.

Great pictures though; thanks, Joel and Richard.

[Vitesse2]

On reflection, and having blown the picture up, I'd agree - it's not Seppi, but there's still a resemblance, don't you think? Especially in the first picture.

[fines]

Definitely not even resembling Seppi...

[bill moffat]

I agree with Fines on this one. A young Freddie Mercury possibly but Seppi..nah !!

Other Rover BRM ponderings . Graham Hill's thoughts on the car were interesting to read, particularly in the field of engine responsiveness. Forget turbo lag, this car had turbine LAG. No other car was (to my knowledge) approaching the Mulsanne corner with the driver's foot hard on the gas (literally) pedal..however this was a technique that the the Anglo American duo quickly learnt.

Somebody needs to educate me on gas turbines. In 1952 Rover were able to push "Jet 1" ( an ugly, chopped version of a Rover P4 with the aerodynamics of a brick ****house) to 152 mph courtesy of an alleged 230 bhp turbine. So how was it that a purpose built LM racer was slower and had appreciably less power a decade later. Presumably something to do with turbine size/fan speed/natural gas or similar..but any engine that doesn't have 4 strokes to its name is a mystery to me....

And finally. The entire Rover team should have been sent to the Tower for reviving the Rover BRM name on a tarted up, orange snouted, button upholstered granny hatchback. Shame on them all.

Congrats on the photos of Graham's foot-warming exploits and the wonderfully evocative Land Rover transporter.

[fines]

Hey, isn't that Norbert Haug's daddy at the other side of Graham's head?

[Doug Nye]

The moustachioed fellow behind Graham in those WONDERFUL photos - dammit, how I could have done with those a few months ago... - is in fact Douglas Armstrong, the British journalist, while the chap sen in side profile on the extreme right looks very like driver Peter Jopp who was a great mate and drinking partner of Graham's. He did a deal with the Rootes Group for he and Graham to share a Sunbeam Rapier on the 1962 Monte Carlo Rally - remember, at the beginning of the racing season in which Graham would become World Champion? Rootes offered a standard fee of £50 each but Peter managed to get BBC TV interested in the escapade and brought them on board to cover the Rapier's exploits during the Rally, which so impressed the Rootes Group competition and PR people that they pushed the fee up to £75 each. Graham couldn't believe such a generous offer and looked upon Joppie thereafter as some kind of wheeler-dealing Mr Fixit sponsorship king...

What a happily uncomplicated era that period now seems to be... The year's Formula 1 World Champion kicking off his year by 'doing the Monte' for 75 quid and a little exposure on the telly...



DCN

[Bjorn Kjer]

Will someone be kind and give me the wheelbase on the 2 Le Mans racers ?

[Tim Murray]

1963: 7 ft 9 in (2362 mm)

1965: 7 ft 9.5 in (2375 mm)

[Bjorn Kjer]

Thanks a lot Tim . I am used to excact measuring as well as eye views , but it still surprises me how much illusion there is in pictures, I allways thought the 00 to be much shorter and smaller
,but that must be the looks of it! And you Tim know about it too , I guess!

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
I allways thought the 00 to be much shorter and smaller, but that must be the looks of it! And you Tim know about it too , I guess!

I was certainly surprised that the wheelbases were so similar. The wheelbase for the 1963 car I found in Doug's BRM Vol 2, and also in The World's Racing Cars - 2nd Edition by Mike Twite. The figure for the 1965 car came from the full road test carried out on the car by Motor magazine, which included all the relevant dimensions. I'm guessing that the Motor people took their own measurements as part of the test.