46 replies to this topic

[charles williams]

I'm not sure on the rules throughout the world on this matter, but in Britain, if one is on a motorcycle and would normally where a turban, one is not require to wear a helmet. Is this the same in all of the Formulas? Obviously, you cannot put a helmet on top of a turban so, what happens? Does the FIA discriminate against turban wearers and say they can't race or do they allow them to race? Note the person is unlikely to defy their religion. It is perceivable that the FIA could never let anyone race without a helmet because it would be almost, if not entirely, impossible.

Comments, opinions, answers please....

[juhap]

Just in case you are serious, this is from the FIA's Appendix L to the International Sporting Code:

All drivers competing in circuit events, hill-climbs or rally special
stages, entered on the FIA Calendar, must wear crash helmets
which meet one of the standards listed in technical list N° 25 of
Appendix J.

[charles williams]

obviously this is so, to aid the person involved, however, safety aspects aside, is it not discrimination?

[schuy]

Or in the words of Ali G:"Is it not raciallist?"

[juhap]

No idea.

Maybe Narain Karthikeyan will sue FIA and we'll find out (apologies to all the Indian fans out there for my western stereotype).

[Scoop]

Originally posted by juhap
No idea.

Maybe Narain Karthikeyan will sue FIA and we'll find out (apologies to all the Indian fans out there for my western stereotype).

Why would Karthikeyan sue the FIA ? He doesn't sport a turban.

[MattPete]

Originally posted by charles williams
obviously this is so, to aid the person involved, however, safety aspects aside, is it not discrimination?

No, because it does not discriminate between people, but treats them equally.

[Ray Bell]

What, then, about holding qualifying on Saturdays?

This discriminates against Seventh Day Adventists, Jews and Worldwide Church of God adherents, doesn't it?

[mel]

And those races, always on a sunday. When's a chap supposed to attend church?;)

[juhap]

Originally posted by Scoop

Why would Karthikeyan sue the FIA ? He doesn't sport a turban.

My mistake for using sarcasm. Thought it was obvious, but evidently I was wrong.

[OssieFan]

Originally posted by mel
And those races, always on a sunday. When's a chap supposed to attend church?;)

That reminds me of a guy who used to race in the Super Tourer series here in Aus once, apparently he never raced on Sunday because his religion restricted it.

[BRG]

Here in the F1-centric world of Atlas, you seem to think this is a new problem that has never arisen.

But out in the wider world of motorsport, there already are Sikh drivers (it is Sikh men whose religion requires them to wear the turban, along with a bangle and a dagger IIRC - so Karthikeyan would have no case, being, I believe, a Hindu). For instance, Joginder Singh won the Safari Rally many years ago, and AFAIK wore a helmet because the FIA rules required it. There are also doubtless some racing drivers who are Sikhs, in India or elsewhere. So presumably the issue has already arisen and been dealt with - doubtless on the lines of "wear a helmet or don't compete".

IIRC the issue in the UK was never really raised by Sikhs anyway. It was due to some idiots who wanted to circumvent the motorcycle helmet law and brought it up. Political correctness then kicked in and the exemption was made. But I don't remember EVER seeing a beturbanned Sikh on a motorcycle. I imagine that most Sikhs, who are in my experience part of a generally very sensible and down-to-earth culture, see the common-sense in using crash helmets.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by BRG
I imagine that most Sikhs, who are in my experience part of a generally very sensible and down-to-earth culture, see the common-sense in using crash helmets.

Last year there was a fierce verbal battle between Calgary Sikhs and Edmonton Sikhs over bicycle helmet laws where the Calgary Sikhs were demanding exemptions for their children while the Edmonton Sikhs calmly chided them over their inability to adapt & overcome. To be honest, the whole issue was so ludicrous (at least to me) that I completely lost interest in it other than the occasional jibe about wearing turbans on my feet so I wouldn't have to wear my steel toe boots to work!

[BRG]

Calgary Sikhs = the Exceptions that prove the Rule!

[Hotwheels]

Originally posted by BRG
Here in the F1-centric world of Atlas, you seem to think this is a new problem that has never arisen.

But out in the wider world of motorsport, there already are Sikh drivers (it is Sikh men whose religion requires them to wear the turban, along with a bangle and a dagger IIRC - so Karthikeyan would have no case, being, I believe, a Hindu). For instance, Joginder Singh won the Safari Rally many years ago, and AFAIK wore a helmet because the FIA rules required it. There are also doubtless some racing drivers who are Sikhs, in India or elsewhere. So presumably the issue has already arisen and been dealt with - doubtless on the lines of "wear a helmet or don't compete".

IIRC the issue in the UK was never really raised by Sikhs anyway. It was due to some idiots who wanted to circumvent the motorcycle helmet law and brought it up. Political correctness then kicked in and the exemption was made. But I don't remember EVER seeing a beturbanned Sikh on a motorcycle. I imagine that most Sikhs, who are in my experience part of a generally very sensible and down-to-earth culture, see the common-sense in using crash helmets.

Sikhs in India do not generally sport the helmet , and the law allows for it.
As for the fact of wearing a hemet - when needed , the Sikhs have too types of turbans - 1 which is worn normally and the other - whch is smaller , called a "patka" . This is what sportmen like the Sikh bowler in the cricket team wear.

[SeanValen]

Some sikhs would take their turban off for a activity, I know alot, some for swimming, so for racing, they could so as well, extra heat around the head area which needs to breath in a hot race.

[Locai]

To take this thread way off topic, the NCAA made a mistake when seeding when seeding the basketball tournament because they put BYU into a bracket where they would have had to play their third round game on a Sunday. If they had won their first two games, they would have been moved to another bracket that played on Saturday.

I guess that means that there will never be any Mormon race car drivers. Plus, they don't drink alcohol, so that would mean no champagne spraying either.


Now for those of you who aren't from North America, a glossary of the above:

NCAA - National Collegiate Athletic Association (the U.S. college sports organization)
BYU - Brigham Young University (a college run by the Mormon religion)

[maxie]

Originally posted by Locai
I guess that means that there will never be any Mormon race car drivers. Plus, they don't drink alcohol, so that would mean no champagne spraying either.

When Rosberg won at Dijon '82, he didn't spray champagne 'cos the main sponsor for Williams was from Saudi Arabia. Instead he simply waved his tiny bottle of mineral water in the air as the replacement.

[schuy]

The Bin-Laden family?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by mel
And those races, always on a sunday. When's a chap supposed to attend church?;)

Which is why I rarely see an F1 race run live -- I am in church when they are broadcast here in the Eastern USA.

[312 PB]

where is the :throwingup: smilie

[batsnumbereleven]

Actually, until the early 80s, the British Grand Prix was usually held on a Saturday rather than a Sunday as a concession to the church-going populace.

[Ray Bell]

This is not unusual at all... The South African GP was at one time also held on a Saturday, and some New Zealand races, as I recall.

The Australian Grand Prix of 1949 was to be held at Lowood circuit west of Brisbane, but came under attack from the local Lutheran populace who didn't want the quiet of their Sunday sabbath desecrated by the sound of rampant MGs and Terraplanes...

They went to the landowners, the Defence Dept, who leased the land to the club running the race, and put their case. The Lowood airfield was therefore off limits for the race.

The club then searched for another venue, finding one about fifty miles further from Brisbane, a former bomber base which had been subdivided and sold to farmers. A huge base for Liberators, it consisted of three straights and had only one tight corner. There was a sweeper that looked like it was designed to cope with a Liberator losing an engine just at takeoff point and enabling it to turn onto the run down to the other end, while a two-part corner at the bottom of that run could be taken in one huge sweep as well.

The Sunday that race was run saw the biggest sporting crowd ever to assemble in Queensland to that time, while it probably remains as the biggest sporting crowd outside Brisbane to this day.

Strange, all of this, especially when you see what Colossians 2:16 says on the matter...

[HP]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Strange, all of this, especially when you see what Colossians 2:16 says on the matter...

Don't forget though this is in the Christian Bible, so a Sikh for example has a different reference point. As for me, F1 races are in the evenings. If I had to choose though, I'd rather be at church where a lot of my friends are, than watching a F1 race live. It's simply a matter of priorities for me.

To the question about wearing a turban instead of a helmet. The FIA is concerend about safety, not about peoples religious backgrounds, that should be fairly obvious. Also, from a practical point of view, they would need to adapt the turban for the race anyway, as we don't want to imagine a turban getting loose at 300 km/h. And then attaching HANS to a turban, might pose other challenges as well.

[markzed]

Originally posted by OssieFan
That reminds me of a guy who used to race in the Super Tourer series here in Aus once, apparently he never raced on Sunday because his religion restricted it.

His surname was Searle but I can't remember his first name. Richard or Roy?

He always missed qualifying on Saturday due to religious beliefs so he always started from the back of the grid on Sunday.

I think he raced a BMW then upgraded to a Commodore.

[Smooth]

I seem to remember one of the Coneheads wearing a motorcycle helmet. If they can do that, can't a helmet be worn over a turban?

[hedges]

Since anyone not wearing a helmet would probably die in a lower formula before even being considered for F1 it is unlikely to ever be a problem for them though I am sure the turban was considered an excellent head protection device for horse/camel/elephant or whatever racing at the time compulsary turban wearing was introduced.

[markzed]

The FIA could allow turbans to be worn, but introduce a fee payable by the team.

Hang on - wasn't turban-charging banned quite a few years ago?






boom boom

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by HP
Don't forget though this is in the Christian Bible, so a Sikh for example has a different reference point.....

I don't know if a Sikh has a sabbath at all, and that was what the reference was about...

I was just responding about the Saturday racing that used to predominate in England and some other places. The Sunday sabbath is largely a Christian deal... and of course, it's your choice to prefer going to church.

[schuy]

To this day races in Assen are not held on Sundays...(not sure)

[Cociani]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


I don't know if a Sikh has a sabbath at all, and that was what the reference was about...

I have several Sikh clients here in Canada and they hold their services at Temple on Sundays. They have told me that they do that out of conveinience and not for any specific reasons.

Most Sikhs in my town are clean shaven and where no turban, some are more religious and do wear the turban and never cut their hair. They also cary a cerimonial dagger. As I said the more fundamentalist Sikhs at least where I live are the minority.

There is a large rift in the Sikh community in Surrey British Columbia between the more orthodox Sikhs and the reformers, there have been struggles politically between those two groups for control of the larger temples.

Sikhs are a sizable minority in Western Canada and this issue regarding turbans has come up many times, Sikhs may don their turbans at all times if they join the RCMP and are excused from many other regulations in Canada.

I am a very Liberal person but I do not think it would be a good idea for anybody to have a helmut exemption in motor racing. Imagine, as an example, if a driver were killed or sustained a serious injury because they were not wearing a helmut imagine what the other driver involved would feel like. There are also of course huge liability questions.

[Eric McLoughlin]

Up until the 80s, in the UK very few sporting activities of any sort took place on a Sunday. It is not necessarily a purely Christian thing either, Catholic countries, eg Ireland and Italy have never had any problem with holding sporting events on Sundays. The ban on sporting events on Sundays in Britain dates back to the Puritan days of Cromwell.

[OssieFan]

Originally posted by markzed


His surname was Searle but I can't remember his first name. Richard or Roy?

He always missed qualifying on Saturday due to religious beliefs so he always started from the back of the grid on Sunday.

I think he raced a BMW then upgraded to a Commodore.

Ah, that's right, it was Saturday that he always missed.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
Up until the 80s, in the UK very few sporting activities of any sort took place on a Sunday. It is not necessarily a purely Christian thing either, Catholic countries, eg Ireland and Italy have never had any problem with holding sporting events on Sundays. The ban on sporting events on Sundays in Britain dates back to the Puritan days of Cromwell.

But sport and sundays go hand in hand - you can't beat a sunday afternoon watching some live sport with a cold beer in hand.

Only the other Sunday I was amongst a ground of 18,000 at a London Irish rugby match which got through 36,000 pints of Guinness in celebration of St Patrick's day. That 36,000 figure is pretty impressive when you consider at least half the spectators were kids.

Hmmm, methinks I have just outted myself as being less than religious...

[stuck-in-first-gear]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
Up until the 80s, in the UK very few sporting activities of any sort took place on a Sunday. It is not necessarily a purely Christian thing either, Catholic countries, eg Ireland and Italy have never had any problem with holding sporting events on Sundays. The ban on sporting events on Sundays in Britain dates back to the Puritan days of Cromwell.

Just as Walter doesn't bowl on Shabas ;)

[Eric McLoughlin]

The Irish always had their priorities right:

Saturday afternoon - horse racing then Confession
Saturday evening - the pub
Sunday morning - mass
Sunday afternoon - football (gaelic and/or soccer)
Sunday evening - pub again

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
.....Saturday afternoon - horse racing then Confession.....

To confess what?

That they've lost the grocery money at the horses?

[Eric McLoughlin]

Probably

The great thing about confession is that you can commit all the sins you like, pop into the box, say youre sorry and then go out and commit them all again. I think it's a brilliant system. I can't see why other religions don't take it up.

I stopped going to confession when I was 12, so I have a large backlog to clear.

[mel]

Go back. You'll make their day!

[Garagiste]

"Our Bernie,
Who art on Rich Lists,
'Mud' often be thy name.
You are 'the one'
Your races run,
(on tracks that allow tobacco).
Give us this week our bi-weekly fix,
And please forgive Silverstone,
as we forgive those who start duplicate threads.
Lead us not onto ovals,
but deliver us from Nascar,
For yours is the money, the money and the money
For ever and ever?
Oh well. :

[Eric McLoughlin]

The Catholics always omit the last two lines.

[Scoots]

There was a story, many years ago, that Steve Young, retired quarterback of the San Francisco 49ers American football team, was kicked out of the Mormon church for working on sundays. He was being made an example of because he is the great grandson of Brigham Young the founder of the church. As the story went, he pointed out that he was going to donate 20% of his very sizable income to the church and bingo he was back in.

Whether any of this is true or not ... I don't know. Either way it illustrates 2 points, religions are flexible, and churches are greedy.

Another american football player who is muslim has said that he can indeed drink and eat during daylight during ramadan, but if he does then he has to do extra prayers.

[POLAR]

This is the most surreal thread i´ve ever seen...congratulations to you all.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
The Catholics always omit the last two lines.

Don't they always?

By the way, if you had pole position when you next go to confession, would you be out before evening?

[Eric McLoughlin]

Believe me Ray, I always aimed to be out of the box within 30 seconds. After all, when you're 12 years old, trying to come up with a respectable list of "juicy" sins to confess can be a bit of a struggle.

We did get delayed one Saturday afternoon when my mother decided to enter into an argument with the priest during her "confessional stint". At the end of her time in the box the priest said (she told us years later) "Mrs McLoughlin, there is nothing I can do for you". I think my disillusionment with the Catholic church began about that time.

[Schuting Star]

Originally posted by Garagiste
"Our Bernie,
Who art on Rich Lists,
'Mud' often be thy name.
You are 'the one'
Your races run,
(on tracks that allow tobacco).
Give us this week our bi-weekly fix,
And please forgive Silverstone,
as we forgive those who start duplicate threads.
Lead us not onto ovals,
but deliver us from Nascar,
For yours is the money, the money and the money
For ever and ever?
Oh well. :

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by POLAR
This is the most surreal thread i´ve ever seen...congratulations to you all.

You want surreal?

http://www.atlasf1.c...=&threadid=6758

Or for an isolated surreal post...

http://www.atlasf1.c...=&postid=712716

Enjoy!