56 replies to this topic

[AtlanticRacer]

I have always wondered what has kept the WRC from coming Stateside. I would love to go see a WRC event somewhere in the states but it just never has happened. Nobody even mentions it either. I know the interest in WRC is there. I talk to people who don't follow racing at all and when they come over and see rally is on, they seem to love it. So what's the deal?

[Robbie]

Because rallying on ovals doesn't really work?

[Cypher]

Interesting question. I'd figure they might try to link it with some other event like Pike's Peak (in the same way F1 is linked with the Indy track).

Is there anything even remotely like WRC in the USA?

[maclaren]

Majority of Rallyes are concentrated around the Meditteranean Sea, that should indeed change.

[zppd]

SCCA does have several rally events; ProRally, ClubRally, and RallyCross. Some of them are shown on SpeedChannel.

check here: http://www.scca.org/...ally/index.html

[indycarjunkie]

Lawyers are the root of all evil in the states. Since Rallying is dangerous not only to the drivers, but spectators as well, there are doubtless few people or organizations willing to accept liability for such events. On the other hand, Rallying is fun to watch on TV, I don't see how it would be as fun to watch in person.

[Don Capps]

The USA did host several rounds of the WRC -- or whatever it called back then. I think the Press-On-Regardless Rally spent several years on the international championship calendar before being dropped. Only barely getting to the National level after decidedly mixed results at the Regional level, I cannot cite the details but recall POR being a championship round.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Robbie
Because rallying on ovals doesn't really work?

Whereas the rallys on permanent road courses are outstanding success


The entire WRC could be held in this country, such is the variation in terrain.

[Todd]

Originally posted by indycarjunkie
Lawyers are the root of all evil in the states. Since Rallying is dangerous not only to the drivers, but spectators as well, there are doubtless few people or organizations willing to accept liability for such events. On the other hand, Rallying is fun to watch on TV, I don't see how it would be as fun to watch in person.

I suspect you are on the right track. When I first read the question, I first thought of our lack of competitors. There are no US drivers in WRC, and that seems to be one factor in where events are concentrated, not that it explains Turkey. I would think that Subaru and Ford would welcome the marketing help of high profile rallying in the USA, but it would be hard to imagine high profile events where the spectators are put in harms way.

[Tumppi@BXL]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld

The entire WRC could be held in this country, such is the variation in terrain.

The W in WRC does actually stand for World, Ross. And contrary to popular belief on the other side of the pond, US does not equal to World.

Methinks, the reason why WRC does not compete in US is because it is more than any other FIA sanctioned series, a marketplace of production models for the average Eric European. The cars competing are relatively small and are available as production models on extremely small engine sizes for the US market. A Skoda Octavia (selling with 1.6 - 2.0 litre engine in Europe) might not have a huge market interest in Europe.

Also, I have a feeling every FIA sanctioned series (apart from F1 up until early 90s) are traditionally very much European - Asian based event. Not sure if there are/were any hidden agendas between FIA and whatever sanctions racing in US agreeing on what series race where (apart from the CART deal).

Still, I believe it is mostly a question of WRC cars not being the most appealing models in US.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Tumppi@BXL
The W in WRC does actually stand for World, Ross. And contrary to popular belief on the other side of the pond, US does not equal to World.

This isnt about politics, but geography. Very few countries have the variation in topography and weather that the United States has

[Scoots]

The FIA and WRC are trying to get a US rally. The pro-rally in colorado was in the first stage of scrutineering last year, but local polititians were uncooperative to the changes the FIA wanted so Mexico got bumped above the US on the potential rally list and now, after this years final check of Mexico they are set to get a full WRC event next year.

If the differences can be ironed out the US may get a rally in 2005 or 2006, then again the US may be left out and we'll have to go to Mexico or Canada to see an event.

[speedmaster]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


This isnt about politics, but geography. Very few countries have the variation in topography and weather that the United States has

Brazil, maybe? I would love to go to the Rockies around Durango, Colorado and then to a Pikes Peak climbing to check it. It would be a blast.

[Jerry Lee]

We waiting until the entire country is flat and paved, then we will build a temporary rally course.

[Tumppi@BXL]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


This isnt about politics, but geography. Very few countries have the variation in topography and weather that the United States has

Du-uhh! Few countries in the world are as large as US is (I can only name 3-ish).

I honestly do believe it's more down to the different buyer profiles of cars in US vs. Europe than anything else.

---
t

[AtlanticRacer]

I live in Boulder, Colorado and rallying around the front range of Colorado would be truely an awesome sight. The terrain is not like anything else on the WRC calender and of course the mountains START at 5,300ft above sea level. There are some SCCA rallys and I am looking forward to going to Pikes Peak this year. Pikes Peak would be highly dangerous for a WRC championship round but some of the tarmac roads are very fast and wider than other WRC events. It could be one of the faster rallies around.
When I am driving my GTi around Boulder, I think about how great it would to see McRae and crew ripping tarmac from the ground! It would do Ford, Subby, Mitsu and Hyndai a lot of PR good in America. There are so many WRX, Lancers and hot Focus's to be sold in the Colorado area alone - it would help them out quite a bit.

But Colorado is very conservitive politically, except for Boulder and Denver. But with the history of Pikes Peak, there could be a push to get a rally in the region. If and when it does happen, I will be the first to show up with my kit at the side of the road!!!




colorado


Grand Teton National Park, Wyoming


Eastern Sierra, California

Use your imagination! it would look MEGA!

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Scoots
The FIA and WRC are trying to get a US rally. The pro-rally in colorado was in the first stage of scrutineering last year, but local polititians were uncooperative to the changes the FIA wanted so Mexico got bumped above the US on the potential rally list and now, after this years final check of Mexico they are set to get a full WRC event next year.

If the differences can be ironed out the US may get a rally in 2005 or 2006, then again the US may be left out and we'll have to go to Mexico or Canada to see an event.

I'd also read that the Cherokee rally (not sure of the official name) in the mountains of Tennessee was being looked at as a potential WRC event.

[flsp]

Well, it's not in the US, but the organization of the Rally of Charlevoix in Quebec are working hard to become a WRC event and they are already FIA sanctioned.

http://www.rallye-charlevoix.com/
"The organizing comittee will now wait for observations made by F.I.A. officials during this 16th edition. Charlevoix hopes to receive a world championship event and the possibility exists for 2004."

[Scoots]

Originally posted by Rob G

I'd also read that the Cherokee rally (not sure of the official name) in the mountains of Tennessee was being looked at as a potential WRC event.

IIRC it hit some early logistical problems in the review by the FIA.

They are trying hard to get it here, and the manufacturers really want it here, the problem, as was stated earlier is lawyers and politicians.

[flyer72]

I don't think that Peugeot, Citroen or Skoda cares too much about a US event - hardly their market...

[Moanaman]

Originally posted by Tumppi@BXL
The W in WRC does actually stand for World

Is that like the W in World Series Baseball??

[AtlanticRacer]

Originally posted by flyer72
I don't think that Peugeot, Citroen or Skoda cares too much about a US event - hardly their market...

West, Benson + Hedges and Vodafone don't sell their products in the United States either... and even if they don't sell cars here, it's all about brand recognision.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by AtlanticRacer


West, Benson + Hedges and Vodafone don't sell their products in the United States either...

Well the USGP is really a waste. The US Market, is arguably the worst of all GPs, and even without the GP its a pretty small potato.

[AtlanticRacer]

tell Ford that the USGP is a waste... that is a rediculous statement. the US is the biggest untapped market in the world in terms of F1. There are more Ferrari's sold in America than cold soggy England and the rest of the world too... Toyota, Honda, BMW + Mercedes know that too. There is a reason that GM (even though they make sheity cars) were the no.1 car company last year and the first European car company on that list was VAG who was no. 3... so it is a very large potato that is hasn't been picked from the soil.

[MPea3]

the olympus rally was part of the WRC in the late 80's. it strated at the tacomadome in washington state, and used many of the "fire roads" in the weyerhauser forests in the pacific northwest. one interesting thing about it was that it also counted toward the SCCA pro rally championship, and therefore, the FIA drivers were allowed to do a recce use pace notes, while it remained a secret route rally for those who entered with an SCCA license. i still have some videotape somewhere that i took at the event. as i remember, marku alen and juha kannkunen (sp?) were battling it out for the championship and were both there, and if memory serves me correctly, buffum and millen finished 3rd and 4th. the sound of the group B cars in the mountains was great.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by AtlanticRacer
tell Ford that the USGP is a waste... that is a rediculous statement. the US is the biggest untapped market in the world in terms of F1. There are more Ferrari's sold in America than cold soggy England and the rest of the world too... Toyota, Honda, BMW + Mercedes know that too. There is a reason that GM (even though they make sheity cars) were the no.1 car company last year and the first European car company on that list was VAG who was no. 3... so it is a very large potato that is hasn't been picked from the soil.

And a potato that will never be cooked. F1 viewership in the US is rated in the hundreds of thousands, in major European countries the millions. A greater % of citizens in Germany and Italy watch F1 than Americans watch NASCAR.


World Wide car sales

Western Europe 14.769.489
North America 10.452.649
Asia-Pacific 8.371.499
Eastern Europe 2.176.284
Middle East 1.191.903
Central and South America 1.884.869
Africa 643.928


For manufacturers I agree, for regular consumer products the US isnt that important imo. Its not that large a % of the world.

[Cobra]

Atlanticracer, those are some amazing photos of potential WRC scenery Hopefully more car companies decide to sell more road going rally cars here in North America increasing the feasibilty of a US round.

[schuy]

The greatest problem would be lack of interest by the manufacturers.

Peugeot aren't selling their 206 in the US.
Citroen aren't selling their Xsara.
Skoda aren't selling their Octavia or Fabia.

Subaru are selling the Impreza.
And Ford are selling their Focus.

[JForce]

New Zealand could hold the whole WRC. We have every kind of terrain currently used, no problem. Gravel, mud, snow, tarmac, dirt...we have it all

[MPea3]

one of the difficulties in having rallies in the US has to do with road closure. the easiest roads to get the use of are either private logging roads, such as the weyerhauser roads used by olympus, or by making an application to the US forest service for the use of their fire and logging roads. here in georgia in the 80's we did the latter, and we have some really wonderful rally roads in the north georgia mountains. there isn't much privately owned forest area in our area, and companies also lease areas of the national forest for logging.

government agencies being what they are though, insurance was required, as were the overtime salaries of the forest service officials to enforce the road closures and administer the permit in other ways. along with use fees, i seem to remember that our "bill" from the USFS was somewhere around $15,000, to close about 100 miles of road for a 14 hour period. add in the cost of EMTs and ambulances, communications, and general expenses, and even with sponsorship and entry fees, it was barely a break even propsition.

considering the cost of running rallies and the few national rallies in the US, it's somewhat of a wonder that as many people rally as already do here. for most people, they'd rather buy a car they can run every week for a 4 month racing season. for those who DO rally, it's a real labor of love. some of the others and i used to joke that instead of actually going to run a rally, we should just load the trailer, drive 15 hours somewhere, stay in a seedy motel and eat bad pizza, clip up $100 bills and flush them down the toilet, unload the car off of the trailer, drive it 5 miles, stop, set out triangles, and drive 15 hours home. the net effect would have been the same.

;)

[AtlanticRacer]

Originally posted by Cobra
Atlanticracer, those are some amazing photos of potential WRC scenery Hopefully more car companies decide to sell more road going rally cars here in North America increasing the feasibilty of a US round.

I just put in an order for VW R32, not a rally car but it will be mighty fun eating up the Colorado roads. 250hp, 4wd Golf with (hopefully) a DSG Paddle shift gearbox.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Shoulda gone with the RS6

[Formula1_Fan]

Originally posted by AtlanticRacer
So what's the deal?

Maybe because the tradition and culture of rallying doesn't match with USA automotive or motorsport culture. But neither Formula 1 culture match with the USA. So if one day (this is not too far away i think...) rallying becomes a commercial game, don't ask anybody if there is a rally in the USA but immediately find a comfortable place in an American mountain, sit and watch your favourite sport...;)

[BRG]

As has been pointed out, the USA has had two WRC events - the rather average Press on Regardless Rally in Michigan in the mid 1970s and the very good Olympus Rally in Washington which ran for several years around 1990. Canada has had a couple as well, the Rideau Lakes Rally in Ontario and the Critierium de Quebec (in Quebec of course).

But the problem has been a lack of awareness and interest in both countries so that these events just sort of petered out. A big issue has been the lack of local cars that comply with FIA homologation rules. The US manufacturers have not had any interest in homologating and developing their products (few of which to be fair were very suitable for rallying). Even now, most US and Canadian rallyists use imported cars and most of these do not comply with the Gp N, Gp A, WRC or Super 1600 (Junior WRC) rules. So they aren't allowed to enter a WRC event. Without a solid local entry, a WRC round will struggle to be viable.

However, it looks as if the Corona Rally in Mexico will enter the WRC in 2004, so there will be a WRC round in North America, which is something. But for the US proper, the domestic scene needs to be developed first so that it can support a WRC round. It should happen - as Ross rightly points out, the US has an extraordinary variety of rallying terrain, equal to anywhere in the world - but it is up to rallyists in the US to make it happen.

[Eric McLoughlin]

Whose this "Mr Average Eric European" then?

[AtlanticRacer]

Originally posted by Formula1_Fan


Maybe because the tradition and culture of rallying doesn't match with USA automotive or motorsport culture. But neither Formula 1 culture match with the USA. So if one day (this is not too far away i think...) rallying becomes a commercial game, don't ask anybody if there is a rally in the USA but immediately find a comfortable place in an American mountain, sit and watch your favourite sport...;)

But one can argue that Turkey doesn't match the Rally profile either. They have few ties to this type of sport - and the same F1 in Bahrain, Russia, Malaysia or China? Even though nobody really 'invented' motor racing, the fans in this country aren't ectatic about F1. But these decisions by F1 and WRC are purely political and commercial. They are signaling a wake up call to European races to get their act together with Tobacco and organization or they will be replaced. I don't really care where they go honestly, as long as the racing gets better and I can do without all the politics and bull$hit...

The same goes with Soccer in the States, a few years ago when they were fighting in the World Cup, I didn't really want them to win because the American public really doesn't give them the respect or attention that other countries do. It would mean so much more if other countries win because they actually give a **** about soccer and the nationalism that comes with it...

[GBarclay]

The latest issue of Autoweek addresses just this issue. If they are to believed the Rally in Mexico, hq'd in Leon, will be on the FIA schedule first, possibly for 2004. North America is a very appealing market to the owners of WRC, note I said owners not the participating manufacturers. The article implies that if Mexico gets a rally it will actually increase the odds of the US getting a date. The Cherokee rally held in Tennessee seems to be the favourite. The tree huggers helped kill the CO rally.

AtlanticRacer, I am just north of you in the foothills near Ft Collins. I have driven a lot of nice machinery here in CO but by far my favourite has to be a Mini Cooper S. Designed specifically (it appears) for a loop from Boulder to Nederland to Estes Park to Lyons and back, preferably with no other traffic. The Poudre Canyon runs a close second.

For those not in the US, you may be surprised to learn that the rally cars run in SCCA Pro-Rally are the most powerful rally cars in the world. Most are ex-WRC cars but the motors run under less restrictive rules, so are somehwere between 75 and 100HP more powerful.

A very telling fact, to me at any rate, of the growing importance of rally in the states is that the SCCA and British Rally championship organizers, arranged the 2003 schedule to ensure there were no conflicts. British drivers are increasingly competing in the US, Pro-drive runs the Subie team here, and Rally is the fastest growing segment of SpeedTV. (makes you wonder why WRC coverage was chopped to a single review show, instead of daily coverage)

And to whoever remarked that Rally on TV has got to be better than rally in person. I just gotta say, you need to trek through freezing mud and rain, stand in the cold for hours, have the cars blast by spraying you with dirt, snow or mud, then trek out in miserable conditions. THEN you will understand why WRC in person RULZ!!! but you are correct the coverage on TV is far superior.

Grant

[schuy]

Originally posted by AtlanticRacer


But one can argue that Turkey doesn't match the Rally profile either. They have few ties to this type of sport -

I disagree.
I have visited this year's WRC event of Turkey, and was very impressed.
The WRC event was based on the annual Anatolyan Rally.

The cars entered by the locals were extremely competitive, and I can certainly say they have the crowds and fans to match.
The marshals, as well, were very much the enthusiastic lot.

OT, the organization of the rally this year was total crap, probably due to the Turks' aim to impress the FIA and show them a clean-run rally.

[schuy]

Originally posted by GBarclay
And to whoever remarked that Rally on TV has got to be better than rally in person. I just gotta say, you need to trek through freezing mud and rain, stand in the cold for hours, have the cars blast by spraying you with dirt, snow or mud, then trek out in miserable conditions. THEN you will understand why WRC in person RULZ!!!

How very true!

On the Rally of Turkey, we had to climb and descend over mountains in so many types of surface-
We had a rented Turkish-built Renault Clio Classic, which had to cross rivers, muddy roads, gravel paths, poor asphalt and pure sand.

Ahhhh, and it was all worth it!
One can say that the greatest pleasure of visiting a rally is the way there!

Liran.

[Formula1_Fan]

Originally posted by AtlanticRacer


But one can argue that Turkey doesn't match the Rally profile either. They have few ties to this type of sport - and the same F1 in Bahrain, Russia, Malaysia or China? Even though nobody really 'invented' motor racing, the fans in this country aren't ectatic about F1. But these decisions by F1 and WRC are purely political and commercial. They are signaling a wake up call to European races to get their act together with Tobacco and organization or they will be replaced. I don't really care where they go honestly, as long as the racing gets better and I can do without all the politics and bull$hit...

The same goes with Soccer in the States, a few years ago when they were fighting in the World Cup, I didn't really want them to win because the American public really doesn't give them the respect or attention that other countries do. It would mean so much more if other countries win because they actually give a **** about soccer and the nationalism that comes with it...

Turkey is not a "rally country" as Greece is, but neither Bahrain is an "F1 country"... Remind what i said you... You have now to be happy. Go now and find a good place in an American mountain, now... You won't wait for long...

[Formula1_Fan]

Originally posted by schuy


I disagree.
I have visited this year's WRC event of Turkey, and was very impressed.
The WRC event was based on the annual Anatolyan Rally.

The cars entered by the locals were extremely competitive, and I can certainly say they have the crowds and fans to match.
The marshals, as well, were very much the enthusiastic lot.

OT, the organization of the rally this year was total crap, probably due to the Turks' aim to impress the FIA and show them a clean-run rally.

You might be true but i have to tell that Turkey has not the tradition and "rallying spirit" that Acropolis or Monte Carlo has. You know that Turkey is a large market and has no great tradition. Portugal had no great market but had tradition and now it's off. The same for Safari. So our discussion is a bit nonsense i think. We must understand that racing nowadays is not like 20-30 years ago. It's not about racing spirit but about "commercial spirit". I know that it is a hard thing to accept but this is true...

[AtlanticRacer]

Originally posted by Formula1_Fan


You might be true but i have to tell that Turkey has not the tradition and "rallying spirit" that Acropolis or Monte Carlo has. You know that Turkey is a large market and has no great tradition. Portugal had no great market but had tradition and now it's off. The same for Safari. So our discussion is a bit nonsense i think. We must understand that racing nowadays is not like 20-30 years ago. It's not about racing spirit but about "commercial spirit". I know that it is a hard thing to accept but this is true...

too true, it is a mute point really...

[schuy]

Originally posted by Formula1_Fan
It's not about racing spirit but about "commercial spirit". I know that it is a hard thing to accept but this is true...

I agree.

[diego]

Because all our drivers with really big balls go drag racing or do the Baja 1000

[KenC]

A WRC in the US has been in the works for several years, but has gotten bogged down. I've gone to the SCCA Sno-Rally a few times. A good source is AutoWeek. Here's an article:

http://www.autoweek....102194&record=2

with a small snippet:

[ForzaF1]

A WRC event in the US would be great. There are plenty of spectacular areas that it could be held in.
Cars liket he WRX and soon the EVO VIII are catching on here and there is a definate un-tapped market of car enthusiasts who do not still think that a push-rod V-8 is requirement for a performance car.

It is true that many Americans do not even consider the existance of the outside world until it makes their TVs say things they don't like, but the country is big enough there are enough people with a broader outlook to make a "World" sport viable here.

Because rallying on ovals doesn't really work?

hahah! that is too funny!

[Dolph]

Originally posted by Robbie
Because rallying on ovals doesn't really work?

I don't know. Maybe drifting in corners would be cool

[Scoots]

Originally posted by schuy
The greatest problem would be lack of interest by the manufacturers.

Peugeot aren't selling their 206 in the US.
Citroen aren't selling their Xsara.
Skoda aren't selling their Octavia or Fabia.

Peugeot and Citroen would like to sell cars in the US. And frankly I'd like to buy them .

The Octavia is being sold here as the VW Passat .

If WRC came to the US, Mexico, and Canada, I would bet that SkodaWRC would soon become VWWRC.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Scoots
The Octavia is being sold here as the VW Passat ..

Are you sure? Looking at
http://www.clubb5.co...5-5/part1.shtml that sure looks like the genuine Volkswagen Passat to me, not a rebadged Skoda Octavia.

[Scoots]

Okay, it's the other way around then ... I just meant that the Octavia and Passat are essentially the same car.