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#1 Falcadore

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Posted 30 March 2003 - 11:38

At my local racetrack today - local-ish, Morgan Park Raceway, Warwick, about 90mins from Brisbane, was held the second round of the Queensland State Championship season, including Rounds 3 & 4 of the Queensland Racing Car Championships. At the first round a month ago the field, sadly, consisted exclusively of Formula Fords, Van Diemens, Spectrums, Vectors, Stealths and Swifts. This weekend however a more serious open wheeler showed up, with the promise of more at the next round in May.

The car which tantalised me was a Lola. I went and had a chat to the driver, which as it turned out was Derek Pingel, former Australian Formula II front runner from the early 80's driving for the most part a Cheetak Mk.8. After many seasons away from racing Derek has returned with a rather nice piece of kit. The car is presently in Formula 4000 specification (the class formerly known as Formula Holden) with a 3800cc Holden V6. And a story which has me investigating.

The story goes the car has in its past a Formula One history, having being driven by Geoff Lees for testing purposes with a Honda turbo in the back. But a few things clash. Lola-Honda of course never existed as a Formula One combination, with Honda turbo power running in Spirits, Williams, Lotus and McLaren before proliferating into many teams later under the Mugen banner.

The car is Lola T87/50 HU12.

Which is as far as I am aware is a Formula 3000 chassis number. Indeed the car did spend at least a couple of seasons racing as a Formula 3000 and arrived in this country with a 3 litre Cosworth F3000 motor.

My question, before it reached Australia, is there any reason it may have clocked test miles for a Honda backed team, or indeed for Honda itself, perhaps as a test mule runnign around Suzuka running in early versions of 1988 or 1989 maturally aspirated engines for Honda? Lees I remember has a histroy of racing for Japanese marques although that was largely with Toyota yes?

In any case, any help with the European (or perhaps Formula Nippon) history of this car?

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#2 Jeremy Jackson

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Posted 30 March 2003 - 11:51

HU12, according to my data, was Michel Ferté's car in the 1987 F3000 series, and then raced a couple of times (from Brands Hatch onwards) by Andy Wallace for Madgwick Motorsport, when they got tired of their March 87B.

In 1988, it was used by various drivers, run by Colin Bennett.

The trail goes cold there, I'm afraid, maybe someone can pick it up.

Jeremy

#3 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 March 2003 - 14:01

I trust the lap record copped a severe thrashing?

That's a lot of car for that overly tight circuit, but it would have been fun... both to drive and to watch. It's a shame they corner where the 2.1km loop rejoines the shorter circuit (over the hill - the T-intersection corner), if only that had been a sweeping corner the circuit would have been much better.

#4 Falcadore

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Posted 31 March 2003 - 11:59

It did and it didn't Ray. From what I recall, I missed the opening event because of Speed on Tweed, I think Geoff Gillespie's FIAT turbo sports sedan took the lap record. I can't recall what that record was. Certainly three or four seconds were shaved from it.

The Lola wasn't running smoothly, and was venting lycol from a cooling system that was pressurising itself. Pingel did reset the lap record to 61.9376 but running well perhaps should have ducked under a minute.

The Grant Watson designed and built Prosport Mulsanne (an 1100cc Kawasaki powered Supersports class sportscar) got down to 63.3 second in the hands of Ash Lowe, a top ten national Formula Ford driver (Watson was injured in an off track incident), a number of cars got into 64s and 65s like Tony Quinn (in the Carrera Cup Porsch 996 Alex Davison drove at Albert Park), John Campbell (Hooper SNH9901 Suzuki), Phil Cromtpon (Ford Falcon-Chev), Carlo Chermaz (PVP 250), Stephen Tapper (Stockman MR2), Brian Stockman (Stockman MR2) etc

Overly tight? We can't rebuild Phillip Island everwhere new circuits go. I can't specifically answer the criticism of turn 6, thats something you'd have to take up with the circuit designer and his method, which I believe was done with a scraper at 1:1 scale. And the result is better than Queensland Raceway which had all the computing power in the world to design it. And universally liked by the drivers.

As an aside though, the presence of Pingel has refired interest amongst Qld based open wheeler owners and it looks like six wings and slicks cars could be in attendance for the next Qld Racing car round. I'm salivating for that.

#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 March 2003 - 12:26

Originally posted by Falcadore
It did and it didn't Ray. From what I recall, I missed the opening event because of Speed on Tweed, I think Geoff Gillespie's FIAT turbo sports sedan took the lap record.


I think not... I recall that a FF and a F2 car had a race and that the FF won... I suspect it got the record.

Overly tight? We can't rebuild Phillip Island everwhere new circuits go. I can't specifically answer the criticism of turn 6, thats something you'd have to take up with the circuit designer and his method, which I believe was done with a scraper at 1:1 scale. And the result is better than Queensland Raceway which had all the computing power in the world to design it. And universally liked by the drivers.


Quite apart from the fact that I told Browny that was the case the moment I first laid eyes on the plans of QR ("But every corner has a different radius," I was told!), I'm not asking for Phillip Island, or even Lakeside. I'm just asking for a break in the constant need to haul the speed down to crawl round yet another tight corner.

As an aside though, the presence of Pingel has refired interest amongst Qld based open wheeler owners and it looks like six wings and slicks cars could be in attendance for the next Qld Racing car round. I'm salivating for that.


That's pretty good news... what will CAMS do to prevent it?

#6 Falcadore

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Posted 31 March 2003 - 13:17

Originally posted by Ray Bell


I think not... I recall that a FF and a F2 car had a race and that the FF won... I suspect it got the record.

Quite apart from the fact that I told Browny that was the case the moment I first laid eyes on the plans of QR ("But every corner has a different radius," I was told!), I'm not asking for Phillip Island, or even Lakeside. I'm just asking for a break in the constant need to haul the speed down to crawl round yet another tight corner.

That's pretty good news... what will CAMS do to prevent it?



Ash Lowe in his Spectrum 07 was the Formula Ford and Troy Chaplin was in a Ralt RT34 Golf. Ash is a very good steerer and Troy has had more than a few problems sorting the RT34 that was the usual source of disparity that allowed the two cars to race together. The gap from Ash back to the next.

After consulting notes made at the time fro the report I made for Motorsport News, in which I spoke to both Ash and Geoff, Geoff did take the outright lap record.

As for the open wheelers - all six cars exist and are from currently legal classes. I don't want to jinx it so if you want more details e-mail me privately. Six cars may not excite you, but apart from from occasional FHolden and F3 rounds, we've been starved of open wheelers at non-historic level here. If any of my fellow commentators try and take that race away from me......

#7 ray b

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Posted 31 March 2003 - 13:21

lola-honda won monza in 67 in F-1
actualy a INDY lola with honda power
but entered by the honda team as a honda!!!
last win by a non pure F-1 car
ie a car not purpose built to be a F-1 car

John S bitched so much about hondas over weight pigs
the team bought a off the shelf INDY lola
just before the monza race in 67
lucky win as J CLARK ran out of gas on the last lap
but a win for lola-honda none the less

not your car but lola - honda does have F-1 history
in the pre-turbo era

#8 petefenelon

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Posted 31 March 2003 - 13:41

Originally posted by Falcadore

The story goes the car has in its past a Formula One history, having being driven by Geoff Lees for testing purposes with a Honda turbo in the back. But a few things clash. Lola-Honda of course never existed as a Formula One combination, with Honda turbo power running in Spirits, Williams, Lotus and McLaren before proliferating into many teams later under the Mugen banner.

The car is Lola T87/50 HU12.


This is entirely speculative but what are the chances that it might've been used as a test hack for the Judd CART engine? (nee' Brabham-Honda)? Moderately closely-related to the first Honda F3000 engine....


pete

#9 david_martin

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Posted 31 March 2003 - 15:41

Originally posted by Falcadore
The story goes the car has in its past a Formula One history, having being driven by Geoff Lees for testing purposes with a Honda turbo in the back. But a few things clash. Lola-Honda of course never existed as a Formula One combination, with Honda turbo power running in Spirits, Williams, Lotus and McLaren before proliferating into many teams later under the Mugen banner.

The car is Lola T87/50 HU12.


I would be pretty confident if that chassis did do any F1 engine testing, it certainly wasn't a 1.5 litre RA-16x. The only testing mutt I am aware of that family of engines ever ran in was the hybrid F1/F2 Spirit chassis that Honda and Spirit ran in over the winter of 1982/83 and Stefan Johansson raced in the 1983 Race of Champions. During Geoff Lees time as Honda's official test driver, Honda had acquired one of Williams FW11 chassis for engine testing purposes and Lees (and Satoru Nakajima before him IIRC) did a lot of running in that car during 1986-88. By my reckoning the Lola chassis in question was either on the drawing board or in Europe running in F3000 at the time.

Of course it is entirely feasible that the Lola chassis spent some time in Japan after disappearing off the European F3000 radar, in which case it might have found its way into the hands of Mugen as a test hack during their MF35x programme when Tyrrell, Footwork and Lotus various ran the engine in F1 and, in all probability, did not have the budget or resources to spare or support a chassis for engine testing in Japan. This is all speculation, of course...

#10 petefenelon

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Posted 31 March 2003 - 15:54

Originally posted by david_martin

Of course it is entirely feasible that the Lola chassis spent some time in Japan after disappearing off the European F3000 radar, in which case it might have found its way into the hands of Mugen as a test hack during their MF35x programme when Tyrrell, Footwork and Lotus various ran the engine in F1 and, in all probability, did not have the budget or resources to spare or support a chassis for engine testing in Japan. This is all speculation, of course...



While we're on this one, what was the story behind the 3.5l Mugen V8 that went into the back of the Reynard 89M tyre test car? Just a long-stroke F3000 engine, or an abortive F1 project that we never found out about?

pete

#11 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 March 2003 - 17:27

Is this the chassis that Gibson ran for Skaife in the early nineties?

#12 Falcadore

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Posted 31 March 2003 - 21:24

There have been three Formula Holden Lolas.

Skaife's first Formula Holden was the Spa FB001, which fell apart sooner than it should have. A second Spa, the FB003 was acquired and it then went on to wint the 1991 and 1992 Gold Stars. Then came a Lola T91/50 as a carbon car was needed to fight the onslaught of Carbon fibre Reynards. Skaife won the 1993 Gold Star in the T91. Two years later Skaife returned to the Gold Star with a T93/50, he lost the first race to Paul Stokell, then had his dreadful accident at Eastern Creek in the VR Commodore, which pretty much ended his hopes of a fourth Gold Star.

Brian Sampson acquired the T91 and raced it after the Cheetak Mk.9 simply got to old, unlike Brian.

Mark Noske acquired the T93 where he finished third in the 1997 series and sold the car to Dr. Roger Oakeshott who raced it in 1998/99.

Bob Minogue acquired the T87 in 1994 and it travelled through another owner before Pingel bought it.

#13 Paul Newby

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 13:41

I was flicking through an old Sotheby's catalogue (Melbourne 24/11/90) as you do when you are sorting through a miriad of old magazines and I came across Lot 20 the Lola T87-50, HU12 - "our car" :)

It belonged to Alan Hamilton at the time the photo was taken (in their Porsche showroom) was red in colour and had a normally aspirated Buick V6 in it. The blurb doesn't actually say who originally raced it, but it did mention that it had been fitted with a Cosworth DFV purchased from the Spice Engineering Racing Team during its visit to the Sandown WEC race in 1988. Said engine was used by Spice in their Group C2 race car at Le Mans in 1988, the 3.3 DFV (?) was rebuilt by Nicholson McLaren in May '88. Asking price was $120 - 140K.

Of course, everyone here on TNF knows that a 3.3 Cosworth is a DFL and so it proves as the engine number quoted is DFL 035 :rolleyes:

This post raises more questions then it answers :eek:

Did it arrive in Australia from Europe with a Cosworth DFV, or did it arrive from the States with the Buick V6 (Indy Lights or something?) Did Hamilton use the Lola for, say, hillclimbing - and if so, with what engine? Who brought it at auction?


As an aside, other notable cars at this auction were the following Porsches from the Hamilton stable:
924GTR (used by Colin Bond in '82 Aust GT C'Ship)
906 (Hamilton's Aust Hillclimb C'Ship winning car built from parts)
908 Short Tail (908018 ex factory car Nurburgring 68 winner with Siffert and Elford - road
registered in Aust!)
911 4WD 'Paris Dakar' Prototype

And:
Alfa Romeo TZ1 (750.061 class winner at the 64 Targa Florio and raced in Australia by Max
Brunninghausen

I don't think any of these fabulous cars remain in Australia :cry:

#14 Falcadore

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 13:59

The Buick V6 is the engine used by Formula 4000 (nee Formula Holden, nee Formula Brabham). The Buick V6, was used by Holden in 1988 to power the Holden Commodore from the VN model run onwards. Holden stepped in to help the development of a long term replacement of Formula Pacific, the Commodore V6 was the natural engine to try.

#15 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 14:08

Is it actually a Buick V6... or is it like a Buick V6, or is it a Holden engine based on a Buick V6?

I'm not at all sure of exactly where the Holden V6 came from... I've heard that it was a Buick (or some American GM brand...) engine that was no good when they tried it and was pawned off on Holden. If so, I'd like to see what they used instead, this one has turned out pretty well and has given good service (including adequate power and very good economy) in perhaps a million Commodores. Not to mention the odd Toyota...

#16 Paul Newby

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 14:22

I am aware that the Holden V6 is derived from the Buick V6 (I think there were minimal differences over the years.) However the photo of the T87-50 is sans engine cover as was the current fashion and the black rocker cover has Buick on it, so I'm presuming that it came from America, possibly an Indy Lights engine. In these early days of Formula Brabham/Holden/4000 they may have allowed to use the similar Buick engine. I don't recall the Lola running in our Gold Star Championship though.

#17 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 14:44

So it is derived from a Buick V6... is that confirmed?

If so, which Buick V6?

#18 dmj

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 21:15

T87 is really my all-time favorite... Oh, sorry, you don't talk about Tatra...

#19 Catalina Park

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 00:58

If it is the Alan Hamilton car it has a Buick V6 and not a Holden V6 (there are differences)
Alan had the car modified to run it in hillclimbs.

I think the engine may have been be more like an Indy motor (without turbo) than an Indy lite.

Can anyone get in touch with Alan and find out, or better still get him posting on here!

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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 02:19

He should, shouldn't he?

I'd be fairly sure he has the net in his toy shop...

#21 Paul Newby

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 02:37

As per my original post, the Sotheby's catalogue said it was Lola T87-50 Chassis HU12. No mention of Alan Hamilton or the Buick V6 in the blurb, but the photo clearly shows this to be the case! :)

#22 Falcadore

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Posted 17 April 2003 - 16:12

The car's Formula Holden history is very brief. Bob Minogue ran the car only one season, 1994, with the following results;

April 17 1994
Round 1, Eastern Creek Raceway, New South Wales
Race 1, 6th
Race 2, 7th
Overall, 6th - 14 points

May 22 1994
Round 2, Phillip Island Raceway, Victoria
Race 1, 6th
Race 2, DNF
Overall, 9th - 8 points

June 19 1994
Round 3, Winton Motor Raceway, Victoria
Race 1, 8th
Race 2, 8th
Overall, 8th - 8 points

July 17 1994
Round 4, Lakeside International Raceway, Queensland
Race 1, 5th
Race 2, 5th
Overall, 4th - 20 points

August 7 1994
Round 5, Mallala Motorsport Park, South Australia
Race 1, 6th
Race 2, 6th
Overall, 5th - 16 points

August 28 1994
Round 6, Oran Park Raceway, New South Wales
Race 1, 8th
Race 2, 7th
Overall, 8th - 10 points

Final Points
1st Paul Stokell (Reynard 90D Holden) 200 points
2nd Greg Murphy (Ralt RT23 Holden) 178 points
3rd Adam Kaplan (Reynard 91D Holden) 128 points
=4th Kevin Weeks (Reynard 91D Holden) 116 points
=4th Craig Lowndes (Cheetah Mk.9 Holden) 116 points
6th Bob Minogue (Lola T87/50 Holden) 74 points
7th Alan Galloway (Reynard 91D Holden) 66 points
8th Chris Hocking (Reynard 91D Holden) 46 points
9th Graham Watson (SPA 002 Holden) 32 points
10th Arthur Abrahams (Reynard 92D Holden) 24 points
11th Bernie Stack (Ralt RT21 Holden) 21 points
12th Ron Barnacle (Reynard 90D Holden) 16 points
13th Peter Brennan (Ralt RT21 Holden) 15 points
14th Stan Keen (Shrike NB89H Holden) 8 points
15th Ross Hodgson (Ralt RT21 Holden) 4 points
=16th Rick Fabri (Ralt RT21 Holden) 3 points
=16th Paul Collins (Liston BF3 Holden) 3 points
=18th Al Callegher (Ralt RT21 Holden) 1 point
=18th Roger Seward (Ralt RT23 Holden) 1 point

The Lola appears to have been a fairly capable car. The Reynards and Murphy's Ralt were all carbon fibre cars, a significant advantage. Lowndes drove the Brian Sampson owned Cheetah, the one and only Formula Holden Cheetah, an aluminium tubbed car. Minogue was then the second placed aluminium car in the series with Watson's Garry Anderson designed Spa third ahead of a gaggle of RT21 drivers.

#23 Falcadore

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 12:27

Lola T87/50 made its racing debut at Vallelunga in BS Automotive colours and #40 for Michel Ferte.

1987 International Formula 3000 Championship
Round 2, Vallenlunga, Italy - Michel Ferte #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - 10th
Round 3, Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium - Michel Ferte #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - 14th
Round 4, Pau Grand Prix, France - Michel Ferte #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - 3rd
Round 5, Donington Park, Great Britain - Michel Ferte #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - 6th
Round 6, Enna-Pergusa, Italy - Mark Blundell #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - 9th
Round 7, Brands Hatch, Great Britain - Tomas Kaiser #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - 22nd
Round 8, Birmingham Super Prix, Great Britain - Tomas Kaiser #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - DNQ
Round 9, Imola, Italy - Tomas Kaiser #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - DNF
Round 10, Le Mans Bugatti, France - Tomas Kaiser #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - 16th
Round 11, Jarama, Spain - Tomas Kaiser #40 BS Automotive Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - DNF

1988
Round 5, Monza, Italy - Domenico Gitto #26 CoBRa Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - DNQ
Round 6, Enna-Pergusa, Italy - Enrico Debenedetti #26 CoBRa Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - DNQ
Round 7, Brands Hatch, Great Britain - Enrico Debenedetti #26 CoBRa Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - DNQ
Round 8, Birmingham Super Prix, Great Britain - Daniel Campeau #26 CoBRa Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - DNQ
Round 9, Le Mans Bugatti, France - Beniot Morand #26 CoBRa Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - DNQ
Round 10, Zolder, Belgium - Beniot Morand #26 CoBRa Lola T87/50 HU12 Cosworth - DNQ

What happened to the car between here and where it showed up at Alan Hamilton's......

#24 ray b

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 16:40

Originally posted by Ray Bell
So it is derived from a Buick V6... is that confirmed?

If so, which Buick V6?


GM V6's

buick 3.8 redone as the 3800 and again as the 3800 markII
thats inc GNX turbo and the indy turbo in the 3.8 version
that my guess for any race motor
allso the base for the menard
3800 can be supercharged as is the II but no turbos
not much swaps between versions of this motor
allso comes in a 3.3 sized motor

4.3 big chevy 90deg 3/4 of the v8
mostly used in trucks and as a boat motor
there was allso a 3.8 and 4.1 version of this motor

2.8, 3.1,3.4 little chevy v6 60 deg
also a dohc version with 4valves

3.0 caddy opel saturn saab motor
dohc 4v

olds 3.5 dohc all alloy shortstar

so there is only one buick v6

#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 20:33

You neglected the 1960s 90 degree version, Ray...

Also, what's the included angle of the Buick 3.8?

Actually, why not get serious about identifying it? Bore and stroke, when did the second version emerge, any identifying points?

#26 Falcadore

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 20:50

Originally posted by ray b


GM V6's

buick 3.8 redone as the 3800 and again as the 3800 markII
thats inc GNX turbo and the indy turbo in the 3.8 version
that my guess for any race motor
allso the base for the menard
3800 can be supercharged as is the II but no turbos
not much swaps between versions of this motor
allso comes in a 3.3 sized motor



so there is only one buick v6


How does that relate to the Buick sourced Holden V6 which I was told was different?

#27 ray b

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 22:16

Originally posted by Ray Bell
You neglected the 1960s 90 degree version, Ray...

Also, what's the included angle of the Buick 3.8?

Actually, why not get serious about identifying it? Bore and stroke, when did the second version emerge, any identifying points?


as far as I know all buick v6's are 90deg 62 to 90 are called 3.8s
some have a "even fire crankshaft" to smooth out the motor
these are called 3800s here and most parts donot swap with the older 3.8

note GM motors are now used in all divisions cars
we name them by the original maker/user
so I have a fiero[pontiac] with a chevy small v6 2.8 stock in it
a common swap is the "buick 3800SII sc" even if it came from an other pontiac car
and a chevy v8 is a chevy even if it is in a holden sold as a pontiac GTO here

#28 O Volante

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 22:25

Very nice to see that it sometimes works - I mean the research in the history of FHolden, i.e. ex-F3000 cars ... :) that is in view of my inquiry on the Scott Dixon Reynards, which did not yield too much ... :(

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 23:27

Originally posted by ray b
As far as I know, all Buick V6s are 90deg. 1962 to 1990 are called 3.8s, some have a "even fire crankshaft" to smooth out the motor. These are called 3800s here and most parts do not swap with the older 3.8.

Note GM motors are now used in all divisions cars. We name them by the original maker/user, so I have a Fiero (Pontiac) with a Chevy small V6 2.8.

A common swap is the "Buick 3800SII sc," even if it came from another Pontiac car. And a chevy V8 is a Chevy even if it is in a Holden sold as a Pontiac GTO here.


Yes, the Monaro is sold as a Pontiac GTO... but isn't that only with the Gen II Chevy V8?

The Holden V6 is definitely not a 90 degree engine, it's 60 degrees or so. Pushrod, 3.8 litres, has come in two basic versions as far as I know.

So thus far it seems to be different from all American GM V6s?

#30 Catalina Park

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 00:03

Ray, the Holden V6 has offset bigends, so I would say it was a 90° engine.

The early ones were imported from the USA.

#31 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 00:36

They certainly don't look like 90deg engines, they're not wide enough...

Might go to the dealer's and get a brochure. Maybe I can post a cutaway or something?

#32 canon1753

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 16:18

Isn't the Buick V6 a 60 degree V6? I am not positive but I think it is. The Chevy 4.3 V6 is a 90 degree V6- a Chevy 350 without 2 cylinders

#33 ray b

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 17:50

Originally posted by canon1753
Isn't the Buick V6 a 60 degree V6? I am not positive but I think it is. The Chevy 4.3 V6 is a 90 degree V6- a Chevy 350 without 2 cylinders


all buick v6 3.8 3800, and 3800II are 90 degree

they look narrow yes
link shows a 3800 in a fiero
http://dtcc.cz28.com/87fiero/index.htm
click on the eng-trans at left
note not stock, custom turbo, hotrod

2.8 3.1 and 3.4 are 60 degree V6s but are called chevys
note you can buy a buick car with the chevy motor
or a chevy with the 3800 buick

btw is the new alloy isuzu 3.5v6 same as the olds short star???

#34 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 21:09

Online, I find that the V6 Holden engine is 97 x 86mm bore and stroke, 3791cc.

It is said to have cross-bolted main bearings and there is a listing here which says '4-bolt' compared to '6-bolt' on the Gen II V8. I guess that means that the intermediate main caps only are cross-bolted? Or is it nothing to do with the cross-bolting at all.

There is nothing of note other than that.

But it's more than the Buick site offers... '3.8 litre...' Great!

#35 ray b

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 19:07

http://www.gm.com/au...s/gmpow/l67.htm

thats gm's website for the 3800IIsc
btw same bore and stroke= same motor :cool:

#36 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 22:34

Thanks... but the bore and stroke aren't the same...

Not very different, but different!

#37 Falcadore

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 02:02

Originally posted by O Volante
Very nice to see that it sometimes works - I mean the research in the history of FHolden, i.e. ex-F3000 cars ... :) that is in view of my inquiry on the Scott Dixon Reynards, which did not yield too much ... :(


Where was that thread?

#38 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 02:56

Originally posted by Falcadore


Where was that thread?



Here


http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=56985

#39 Lola5000

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:51

Hamilton bought 2 Lola T87/50s out,the car in the auction he fitted a 4.9 litre stroked Buick engine and ran the AHC,the other car, Minogue fitted a Holden V6 and did Formula Holden in.



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#40 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 21:25

Commodore V6 is a derivation of the Buick V6. The original engine in 88 was a front drive Buick engine, thermostat at the back of the engine etc. 1990 on was the Holden version, though the earlier Buick  [60s 70s] was a stronger engine, stronger  and different crank and block. Early engines used a standard 2 bearings on a journal whereas the latter engine usesd stepped pin crankshafts supposedly to make it smoother! As a road car they are harsh noisy thing so I doubt it was an improvement! The stepped crank ofcourse beaks where you would expect, the first ever FHolden meeting at least 2 broke! They then were forced to go to the steel Buick crank. I believe a normal crankpin version. 

Chev V6 is basically a V8 Chevy less 2 holes. most components interchange, bearings, rings, lifter, pushrods, timing gears, valves, springs etc

Buick V6 too is a version of the old alloy V8 made in cast iron. Ditto the above.