Jump to content


Photo

Audi Quattro Sport Gr.B Mid-Engine Prototype 1985


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 nsmg

nsmg
  • New Member

  • 18 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 03 April 2003 - 04:37

Cheers !

I would like to know if any of you have any information about the misterious Audi Quattro Sport Gr.B Mid-Engined prototype from 1985. This strange car was actually road tested by Walter Rohrl in Austria in the winter of 1985 and was caught on camera ! Audi AG has always officially denied the existence of this car so it's very difficult to find information about it. By now, this unique car has probably been dismantled .......or not. :confused:
I was only able to find some information about this car in these pages :

http://www.audiquatt...ch/wissen2.html
http://www.audiquatt...ttelmotorp.html


Best Regards.
NSMG
(Portugal)

Advertisement

#2 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 April 2003 - 08:21

Yes! You can find the car in the car now in the Audi exhibition in Ingolstadt. I must find the link. But the car doesn't look like a Sport quattro, much more like a Ford RS 200.


The story was: Piech wanted to devellop the car against Peugeot and Lancia, but it was forbidden by the VW R&D Manager Fiala, when he first saw the prototype pictures and asked Ingolstadt, how musch the car will cost.

#3 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 April 2003 - 09:55

And here it is, not the best look on the car, but it gives a first impression.

Posted Image

#4 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 April 2003 - 10:06

Here is the next one: if you need more informations, please send an e-mail or a pm.
Don't know this young Audi-Fan, the picture is from an Audi-Fan-site with interesting views through the Audi-museum

Posted Image

#5 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 27,081 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 03 April 2003 - 11:15

Nice pics. I hadn't seen this car before, although I had heard of it. It is not very closely related to any production Audi Quattro. It shows that the FIA's decision to drop Group B (and therefore to abandon plans for Group S) after the Portugal accident was right, both on safety and financial grounds. This sort of specialist car, along with the Lancia S4, showed that the manufacturers would have driven the costs of rallying through the roof, and probably destroyed the sport into the bargain. Technically, Gp S would have been fascinating, but it would have been beyond the reach of almost everyone except one or two manufacturers. A WRC contested between just two Lancias and two Audis, with no-one else able to afford to compete, would not have been very gripping..

#6 Rainer Nyberg

Rainer Nyberg
  • Member

  • 1,768 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 03 April 2003 - 12:13

Strange looking, reminds me of the ugly Mazda Group C cars of the early 80s....!

#7 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 27,081 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 03 April 2003 - 13:13

Rainer

You're right, i does look very Group C2-ish. It is funny how there seem to be fashions in body-styles, even amongst racing equipment, and this design is very mid-1980s. Of course, it is also a function of having to package some fairly bulky hardware. The Audi straight-5 engine and transmission were neither small nor light and were not really suited to shoehorning into a sports prototype-style body shape. Ford had a much neater engine in the BDT and probably as a result, the GpB RS200 was a far more elegant design.

And I find it rather hard to visualise this Audi on a winding gravel forest road, or barrelling over the bumops and rocks on the Acropolis Rally. :

#8 Rainer Nyberg

Rainer Nyberg
  • Member

  • 1,768 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 03 April 2003 - 13:51

The car has a different set of wheels on each of those pic. On the last pic it seems to have similar wheels (Speedline's?), as used on the S1. The BBS type wheels on the first pic, looks more street like.

You are right BRG, this vehicle seems more suitable for Tour de Corse. ;)

#9 nsmg

nsmg
  • New Member

  • 18 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 03 April 2003 - 15:27

Thank you all for your replies :) , but unfortunatly the car you Sirs are talking about is not the
Mid-Engined Gr.B Protoype from 1985. The car that is on the Audi Museum is the Gr.S (also Mid-Engined) prototype built in 1986. These are two completly different cars. The car I am talking about is this one :

http://www.audiquatt.../aqmittelm1.jpg

http://www.audiquatt.../aqmittelm2.jpg

http://www.audiquatt.../aqmittelm3.jpg

I'm lookig forward to your replies.

Best Regards.
NSMG

#10 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 April 2003 - 15:38

The car has a different set of wheels on each of those pic. On the last pic it seems to have similar wheels (Speedline's?), as used on the S1. The BBS type wheels on the first pic, looks more street like.You are right BRG, this vehicle seems more suitable for Tour de Corse.



Yes, Rainer, BRG, I agree completly.

But don't forget, this car was really never seen, before the museum opened. My first idea was, that
they made a new "museumminded" body for the car. If you compare this body with the only ever seen picture in 1985, there are more than some differencies. All they had in 1985, was a more or less prototype body with some components. And now we can see a fully streamlined
body with some ingredients from Porsche, Ford and Audi? And overall the four rings on the door. which norallye quattros ever had.

Posted Image
My opinion: The best show-car Audi ever built, without the quattro spyder- a really nice car. (Would buy one of those two existing cars, but they are used for the museum. I drove that car once near Audi design. Really the best Porsche ever built!)


BTW: I think the car should run with a V6 engine and not with the 5-cylinder-turbo engine.

#11 nsmg

nsmg
  • New Member

  • 18 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 03 April 2003 - 15:49

Originally posted by Holger Merten


But don't forget, this car was really never seen, before the museum opened. My first idea was, that
they made a new "museumminded" body for the car. )


I'm sorry but I'm afraid that is not correct. The 1986 Audi Gr.S was for many years displayed at a science museum called '' Sinsheim Museum '' in Germany and then it was lighly restored by Audi Sport and transfered to Audi's new museum at Ingolstadt. This car isn't a streamlined version of
the 1985 Gr.B prototype, it is a completely different car.


Best regards.
NSMG

#12 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 April 2003 - 16:55

Ughhhh, Ahhh, that's new for me, I was often in that museum, looking for cars Audi gave to the museum! And I never SAW that car. or nobody showed it to me...???


WOW, must have a look in the museums guide. :eek:

#13 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 03 April 2003 - 17:16

Well, Holger, either you were suffering from a lack of coffee at the time or you had sh** in the eyes - pardon me for this typical Dutch expression :lol: The Group S prototype has indeed been on display at Sinsheim for quite some time, until it was transferred to Ingolstadt.

Look at the pictures made in 2000 on this site .

#14 nsmg

nsmg
  • New Member

  • 18 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 03 April 2003 - 17:22

So....does any one anything about the 1985 Gr.B Mid-Engine Prototype ?
I already contacted Audi Sport , but I didn't receive any reply
to my request..... :mad: :mad:

NSMG

#15 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 April 2003 - 18:53

Originally posted by nsmg
So....does any one anything about the 1985 Gr.B Mid-Engine Prototype ?
I already contacted Audi Sport , but I didn't receive any reply
to my request..... :mad: :mad:

NSMG

Could do that, have contact to some guys of Audi sport, okay.

Why so angry?


@ Brun, impressing those pics.....especially, what we discussed at phone...why did Audi show that car......and sonce when did they show that car at Sinsheim.

#16 Rainer Nyberg

Rainer Nyberg
  • Member

  • 1,768 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 03 April 2003 - 19:33

Here is the story found in the links in the first post in "some kind of english" !
Alta Vista still doesnt get it 100%.... :lol:

AUDI had already 1985 a Mittelmotor Quattro finished, a test should in the Steiermark in the forests of a monastery take place. Most secretly, the abbott had given its Okay.

But on the first day the Mittelmotor Quattro was already photographed and was quickly in the newspaper. That cost by the way indirectly the life to an engineer. It had unbelievably engaged itself in the project. When the photos of the new car appeared, it got extreme annoyance. It died a little later at a cardiac infarct.

AUDI broke the official test travels off. But Walter Roehrl wanted to absolutely drive the car. Its suggestion was, which to AUDI the vehicle in the closed transporter after freeread-sing brings. There enter I, drive on remote roads into Lower Bavaria and into Regensburg takes over AUDI the car again. AUDI played with: -)! Walter Roehrl and its friend Wolfi Kollberbaur drove the central engine AUDI over down-Bavarian roads. The car went like hell and was extremely loud.

With this car AUDI the potential would have to triumph had again. The first central engine prototype, which Walter Roehrl only this drove to mark, went on first attempt very well. The basis was much better than with the sport quattro. Walter Roehrl and Wolfi Kollberbaur followed smallest roads, came on one of these creeping paths over a crest. Behind it a police car stood crosswise on the road, the wachtmeister main header the spoon. Thus: Continue, windows down.

The policeman said: "You heard day Mr. Roehrl, we come for ten minutes." The man knew walter Roehrl and was a fan of him, he was whole from the little house and meant to his colleague: "the Roehrl is, the Roehrl! Go, take the camera!" Walter Roehrl flehte the policemen on: "request, omit the apparatus, the car may none long." The wachtmeister agreed, placed however a condition: "leaving burn times properly. We want to see times, how the crate goes, gell? On geht's!" The trade was perfect, walter Roehrl left itself naturally not to rags. Now still the two furrows are to be seen probable in the small road down into Lower Bavaria, those the not existing car with the lightning start dug hat*g *!

#17 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 03 April 2003 - 21:01

Originally posted by BRG
Technically, Gp S would have been fascinating, but it would have been beyond the reach of almost everyone except one or two manufacturers. A WRC contested between just two Lancias and two Audis, with no-one else able to afford to compete, would not have been very gripping..


If I recall correctly, that isn't true. I remember reading somewhere that Group S would actually quite within reach of smaller factories. The regulations limited the engines to a maximum of 300 bhp and allowed for small homologation series of 10 cars. Quite close to today's WRC rules? Or am I mistaken here?

#18 nsmg

nsmg
  • New Member

  • 18 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 04 April 2003 - 01:29

Originally posted by Holger Merten

Could do that, have contact to some guys of Audi sport, okay.

Why so angry?


It would be great if you Sir could contact the people you know at Audi Sport.
I'm looking forward to receive your news about this subject.

I'm not really angry , but it's rather frustrating the task of finding information about this
1985 prototype. I once contacted Audi about their 1986 Gr.S (mid-engined also) prototype that is displayed on their museum at Ingolstadt. They answered in the form of a written letter , stating that this car is a prototype and they were not allowed to disclose any information about it !
I respect but truly do not understand the decision of keeping secrecy about a car that is already
17 years old !

Best regards.
NSMG

#19 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 04 April 2003 - 05:52

That's easy,

Ferdinand Piech is still alive, and he was responsible for the development of the car, which was a political sensation inside the VW Group. . All responsible people for that project, less or more working for the VW Group could start a discussion about that car. But nobody want's this discussion.

Advertisement

#20 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 04 April 2003 - 09:58

Originally posted by nsmg
Thank you all for your replies :) , but unfortunatly the car you Sirs are talking about is not the
Mid-Engined Gr.B Protoype from 1985. The car that is on the Audi Museum is the Gr.S (also Mid-Engined) prototype built in 1986. These are two completly different cars. The car I am talking about is this one :

http://www.audiquatt.../aqmittelm1.jpg

http://www.audiquatt.../aqmittelm2.jpg

http://www.audiquatt.../aqmittelm3.jpg

I'm lookig forward to your replies.

Best Regards.
NSMG


@NSMG

Do you believe that this 1985 (winter) prototype ist for the Group B and does not depend to the new Group S rules?

That would mean they developed two different cars in more or less one year. Isn't it more logical, that the Group B quattro is a first impression or an outlook for the Group S?

BTW: I send some questions to Audi Sport.

#21 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 04 April 2003 - 10:49

Some additional infos from: PERFORMANCE CAR, March 1989, an interview with Dr. Fritz Naumann, Head of General Vehicle Development at Audi:

"In fact at a very late stage in our rallying programme we did build a mid-engined Group B car, but that didn't go any further..."

So this brings me into troubles with the Group S car... Two cars in in year? Couldn't believe, but I have to.

#22 Brun

Brun
  • Member

  • 511 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 12 August 2004 - 10:47

Just to revive this old thread - today, pictures of this car have surfaced. Check http://mitglied.lyco...ttro/index.html

#23 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 12 August 2004 - 13:49

Great Brun,

but AFAIK and if I remember right, the mid engined Group B quattro was discovered and in testdrive before the 1984 season. So I think, a picture of the car was shown in the German car magazine Auto Zeitung, which published the photo in 1983 or at the beginning of 1984. I think the first semi-official run of the Peugeot 105 was during one of the last rallies in 1983. And it was very fast. So Audi was warned for the next season.

#24 Audi quattro

Audi quattro
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 13 August 2004 - 19:09

Hello Herr Merten,

Do you know a Lothar Franz from Audi Tradition? Has he still got is original pre-war Wanderer bicycle with frood basked on the rear fender to drive to lunch?
I know he worked in the archives of the old museum but I lost track of him since the new museum. Is he still working for Audi?

I have seen the Audi RS 002 for the first time in the museum of Sinsheim in July 1996. It really surprised me because I never read something about this car. I’m glad that it has arrived in the only museum were these sort of Audi prototypes belong.
To bad that al the other (>200?) cars of Audi Tradition are so rarely on display.

Best regards,
Hans

#25 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 14 August 2004 - 10:56

Yes I know Lothar very well and he is still working for Audi Tradition, 4 weeks ago he sent me some rare and unpublished pics of the DKW F8 streamliner, which should had run for the planned Berlin-Rom Longdistance race in 1939.

BTW: The first time I heard about the Group S prototype was this thread, never heard about the car before, didn't read anything about it.


Funny that the midengined Group B quattro was a sensation, while the Group S had to wait 10 years to enter some more attention.

#26 René de Boer

René de Boer
  • Member

  • 402 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 14 August 2004 - 19:41

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Yes I know Lothar very well and he is still working for Audi Tradition, 4 weeks ago he sent me some rare and unpublished pics of the DKW F8 streamliner, which should had run for the planned Berlin-Rom Longdistance race in 1939.

BTW: The first time I heard about the Group S prototype was this thread, never heard about the car before, didn't read anything about it.


Funny that the midengined Group B quattro was a sensation, while the Group S had to wait 10 years to enter some more attention.


I know Lothar too, quite a character! Next time I visit him, I must bring him a bottle of our local Dutch booze (Genever), which he turned out to like very much.

In fact, the first time I found out about the Group S prototype - or about Group S at all - was in a feature story in Motor Sport magazine written by former rally co-driver John Davenport a couple of years ago. Shortly after that, the Audi was first shown in the museum in Ingolstadt.

Next year is the 25th anniversary of the legendary Audi quattro, first shown at the 1980 Geneva Motor Show. Isn't it about time for a definitive book on this gorgeous car, including all the competition details (what happened at that Safari Rally?) and this ominous mid-engined car? Anyone?

#27 Holger Merten

Holger Merten
  • Member

  • 1,836 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 15 August 2004 - 06:18

A book qould be great and a nice birthday present. And if it includes all results, especially those without Audi involvment, that will be fine.

René, take care with the Genever. ;)