79 replies to this topic

[SchuMic]

I knew most of the rules when a race is red flagged at a later stage:

if 75% of the race distance is covered, positions are frozen and all points given, if less than 75%, only half of the points.

But I didn't know that positions were established on the positions two laps beofre the moment the race is stopped.

Can someone explained me in detail exactly why?

[Tomecek]

It's simple. This case is good example. Crash happened on lap 54, race was stopped on lap 55. Means results at the end of lap 54 was already affected by this accident. That's why they are going one more lap further back.

[ensign14]

Mmm, but it's still random. If they'd've run 2 laps under the safety car the result would have been as if the race was run back to the red. I don't like the countback rule, it is open to abuse by a clued-up team.

[SchuMic]

Originally posted by Tomecek
It's simple. This case is good example. Crash happened on lap 54, race was stopped on lap 55. Means results at the end of lap 54 was already affected by this accident. That's why they are going one more lap further back.

I understand but why two laps?

As ensign said, it is a bit random. Does the rules specify textually "two laps" or did they take two because it was just before the incident?

Can someone enlight a bit the rule and its exact content?

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by SchuMic


I understand but why two laps?

As ensign said, it is a bit random. Does the rules specify textually "two laps" or did they take two because it was just before the incident?

Can someone enlight a bit the rule and its exact content?

Yes, it is always like that. Race stopped on lap x, results taken from the end of lap (x-2). Article 155 of Sporting regulations.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by ensign14
Mmm, but it's still random. If they'd've run 2 laps under the safety car the result would have been as if the race was run back to the red. I don't like the countback rule, it is open to abuse by a clued-up team.

You're right, but is seems to be most common case.

[kanec]

This had me baffled and a little annoyed to be honest.

The only reason I can think of why it is two laps is it guarantees the entire field has crossed the start finish line.

[Mat]

Originally posted by kanec
The only reason I can think of why it is two laps is it guarantees the entire field has crossed the start finish line.

Exactly. A good example of this is the 92 or 93 Bathurst 1000. There was a gret downpour in the latter stages and the leader (Richards in the Nissan) crashed out. Diock Johnson claimed he was the winner because he was the last to cross the finish line in the lead, but that meant not everyone will necassarily cross the line.

[kanec]

Originally posted by Mat


Exactly. A good example of this is the 92 or 93 Bathurst 1000. There was a gret downpour in the latter stages and the leader (Richards in the Nissan) crashed out. Diock Johnson claimed he was the winner because he was the last to cross the finish line in the lead, but that meant not everyone will necassarily cross the line.

Nice one. I forgot about that race. Google says 92. http://cfm.globalf1....es/articles/19/

[Witt]

Originally posted by kanec
The only reason I can think of why it is two laps is it guarantees the entire field has crossed the start finish line.

you hit the nail on the head!

As Tomecek said, the accident happened on lap 54 (only the leaders had started 55), which means the results of the race are affected by the accident occuring on lap 54. Therefore, lap 53 was the last lap completed by all competitors unhindered by the red flagging accident.

And for those of you who say a team can use this rule to their advantage, don't forget this rule has been in place for years and has never been abused once. Not to mind the fact that a driver risks paying a pretty hefty price (their life perhaps??) by causing an accident.

[michaelab]

Originally posted by ensign14
I don't like the countback rule, it is open to abuse by a clued-up team.

Err...no it isn't, not unless the team is so clued up that it can predict when a race will be red flagged

Michael.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by michaelab
Err...no it isn't, not unless the team is so clued up that it can predict when a race will be red flagged

Michael.

It can be, just. Jerez 97? Had Irvine managed to get the race stopped after Schumi tried to drive JV off the track, MS would have been world champ on the countback.

Mind you, it would be one heck of an achievement to crash safely and get loads of debris everywhere with a car on the racing line which cannot then be moved. Perhaps Andrea de Cesaris will find employment again.

[Oho]

Originally posted by ensign14
It can be, just. Jerez 97? Had Irvine managed to get the race stopped after Schumi tried to drive JV off the track, MS would have been world champ on the countback.

Ave !!!!


No Schumacher led the title race going to Jerez, no count back was needed just a DNF for Villeneuve.

- Oho -

[random]

It's time for this 2 lap rule to go, even a 1 lap rule is too much. Technology has improved to such an extent that it is easily possible to identify the exact relative positions off all the cars the instant the red flag is unfurled.

In fact, Nascar builds GPS transmitters in their scoring transponders, it allows real time information of the location of every car, all the time.

And to answer the critics, if a red flag were unfurled while a pass was in process and the GPS was not accurate enough to determine who was ahead, they could either review the video or worst case, revert to the order at the last split time monitoring station. With this solution, the worst case scenario would revert scoring to at most, 1/3rd of a lap. And then only for those cars who's position was in question.

Nascar is using this method today, there's no excuse for technically superior F1 to use an antiquated and wholly unfair system.

[Mat]

Originally posted by random
It's time for this 2 lap rule to go, even a 1 lap rule is too much. Technology has improved to such an extent that it is easily possible to identify the exact relative positions off all the cars the instant the red flag is unfurled.

Nascar is using this method today, there's no excuse for technically superior F1 to use an antiquated and wholly unfair system.

But your missing the point. Its not about the difficulty in figuring who is in what position, its about going back to the next closest point in the race in which the red flag incident had no influence on the race.

[michaelab]

Originally posted by ensign14
It can be, just. Jerez 97? Had Irvine managed to get the race stopped after Schumi tried to drive JV off the track, MS would have been world champ on the countback.

Mind you, it would be one heck of an achievement to crash safely and get loads of debris everywhere with a car on the racing line which cannot then be moved. Perhaps Andrea de Cesaris will find employment again.

Well, that's the kind of thing I guessed you meant but it's pretty far fetched - even Ferrari's team orders wouldn't go as far as forcing a guy to do a spectacular crash and even if they did, there's no way you can garuantee to cause a red flag situation.

Michael.

[random]

Originally posted by Mat
But your missing the point. Its not about the difficulty in figuring who is in what position, its about going back to the next closest point in the race in which the red flag incident had no influence on the race.

Typically either a full course yellow or red flag is unfurled mere "seconds" after a large accident like the one we saw. That "is" the closest point in the race in which the incident had no influence on the race. If you wanted to get technical, the FIA could revert the timing to the exact time the accident happened. But as I said, we're only usually talking about a few seconds difference.

Reverting the scoring to two laps prior is simply a lazy solution with the technology available today. And the two-lap system in no way reflects the closest point in the race in which the incident had no influence. This fault in the rule was very clearly illustrated at the Brazilian GP.

[Mat]

Yes, all good points. But Grands Prix finish at the end of laps, not at 'instants'. Everything is done at the line, we saw cars passing each other because they were so bunched up when Rubens was restarting the race, but it doesnt matter as long as they were back in order before the line.

IMO, it isnt really the crash which is the trigger of the red flag, but the deteriation of the track conditions. There is no 'instant' for this. It happened over the course of laps 54/55.

[random]

Originally posted by Mat
Yes, all good points. But Grands Prix finish at the end of laps, not at 'instants'.

Actually some F1 rules do reflect "instants". Full course yellows prohibit passing the "instant" they are unfurled. If the race is stopped more than two laps later, the finishing order is entirely determined by car positions at that instant.

It's time for the sport to synchronize their actions under yellow and red. There is no reason for there to be a difference.

[Prostfan]

One thing I fail to understand:

You have an accident and the cars stops beside the track: dnf - no points

You have an accident and the car stops on the track: race stopped - you earn points (lijke Webber)



The -2 laps-rule is ok, but the driver who caused the accident shouldn't be rewarded any points...

[Mat]

Originally posted by random
Actually some F1 rules do reflect "instants". Full course yellows prohibit passing the "instant" they are unfurled. If the race is stopped more than two laps later, the finishing order is entirely determined by car positions at that instant.

It's time for the sport to synchronize their actions under yellow and red. There is no reason for there to be a difference.

My apologies. Your right about the full course yellows. But Im not sure what you mean by the second example.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by ensign14
Mmm, but it's still random. If they'd've run 2 laps under the safety car the result would have been as if the race was run back to the red. I don't like the countback rule, it is open to abuse by a clued-up team.

Based on the reactions of both Eddie Jordan and Ron Dennis immediately after the race, it seems not many teams are cluded up. Eddie believed Fisichella had won, while Ron understood DC was the winner!

The issue I have is that it wasn't Webber's accident that seemed to bring out the red flag.

Kimi led at end of lap 53. Fisi came thru ahead on lap 54. Behind him on lap 54, Webber lost it. The SC was deployed to pick up the leaders as they started lap 56. Fisichella went through and picked up the SC at start of lap 56. Coming through behind Fisichella at the end of lap 55 was Alonso who lost it - only then was decision taken to red flag. As Fisichella had started his 56th lap - count back 2 laps and it's lap 54 so he should have won! The red flag didn't come out for the Webber crash - it was the Alonso incident that caused it and that occurred when the leader had kust about started lap 56.

[michaelab]

Originally posted by Prostfan
You have an accident and the cars stops beside the track: dnf - no points

You have an accident and the car stops on the track: race stopped - you earn points (lijke Webber)

The -2 laps-rule is ok, but the driver who caused the accident shouldn't be rewarded any points...

I think it's fair enough. No driver is ever going to crash deliberately to cause a red flag so it's not open to abuse. The reasons why they go back 2 laps are clear and IMO perfectly reasonable.

Lets face it, red flags are very rare and when they do happen it's always a bit of a lottery as to how the results end up. I feel sorry for Fisi but IMO Raikonnen was the more deserving winner (or, if you like, the more likely eventual winner).

Lets just be glad that Webber and Alonso are OK - it could all have been much worse

Michael.

[FrankB]

Originally posted by Prostfan


The -2 laps-rule is ok, but the driver who caused the accident shouldn't be rewarded any points...

So who is going to decide if a driver "caused" an accident and thus be denied points under your proposal?

[kanec]

Originally posted by mikedeering
Kimi led at end of lap 53. Fisi came thru ahead on lap 54. Behind him on lap 54, Webber lost it. The SC was deployed to pick up the leaders as they started lap 56. Fisichella went through and picked up the SC at start of lap 56. Coming through behind Fisichella at the end of lap 55 was Alonso who lost it - only then was decision taken to red flag. As Fisichella had started his 56th lap - count back 2 laps and it's lap 54 so he should have won! The red flag didn't come out for the Webber crash - it was the Alonso incident that caused it and that occurred when the leader had kust about started lap 56.

And that's what pissed me off so much about it. That's how I see it as well, but for some reason they decided to declare the initial accident of Webbers the red flag incident.

Under which rule does this fall to allow them to do this?

[michaelab]

Originally posted by mikedeering
The red flag didn't come out for the Webber crash - it was the Alonso incident that caused it and that occurred when the leader had kust about started lap 56.

You don't know that. It could well have been the Webber crash that officially caused the red flag - the stewards don't always react instantly to a potential red flag situation. The Alonso crash was the last straw that confirmed it for them but IMO they probably would have red flagged anyway even if he'd got through the carnage OK.

Michael.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by FrankB


So who is going to decide if a driver "caused" an accident and thus be denied points under your proposal?

Quite - was Alonso to blame for his accident? They was debris all over the track - did he desereve to lose third as a result of Webber losing it? Or was Alonso to blame for going too fast at the time? It is always difficult to apportion blame in such circumstances.

[michaelab]

Originally posted by kanec
And that's what pissed me off so much about it. That's how I see it as well, but for some reason they decided to declare the initial accident of Webbers the red flag incident.

Under which rule does this fall to allow them to do this?

See my previous post. It's up to the stewards to decide - I doubt there's a rule for it. In any case, the Alonso crash was all part of one big incident which caused a red flag that all started with Webber's crash so that's the most logical place to take it from. As I said earlier, they probably would have red flagged even without Alonso's crash.

I can't believe were arguing about this when 2 guys are lucky to be alive after those crashes.

Michael.

[random]

Originally posted by Mat
My apologies. Your right about the full course yellows. But Im not sure what you mean by the second example.

Take this example: Towards the end of the race a heavy rain falls, the officials decide to unfurl a full course yellow and wait it out. They run at least two laps under yellow and the weather worsens or gets no better. The officials then decide to unfurl the red flag and end the race. The finishing order will be based on the exact position of the cars the instant the full course yellow was first shown.

Take this same situation, with the only difference that when the heavy rain starts, the officials call a red flag instead of a full course yellow. In this case, the finishing order does not reflect the position on the track the instant the flag was show, it reverts 2 laps prior to the heavy rain.

The same incident, depending on the whim of an official can have widely varying results. The FIA need to synchronize the rules for yellow and red flags. They already have to figure relative positions for full course yellows, so carrying this to red flag situations should not be much of a challenge.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by FrankB


So who is going to decide if a driver "caused" an accident and thus be denied points under your proposal?

Line 'em up on the grid. If they are unsafe to race they cannot get points. That's one solution.

[kanec]

Originally posted by michaelab
See my previous post. It's up to the stewards to decide - I doubt there's a rule for it. In any case, the Alonso crash was all part of one big incident which caused a red flag that all started with Webber's crash so that's the most logical place to take it from. As I said earlier, they probably would have red flagged even without Alonso's crash.

I can't believe were arguing about this when 2 guys are lucky to be alive after those crashes.

Michael.

But they are alive and we know they are ok. I don't expect anyone on this board not be thankful and mindful of that.

The stewards did decide. They put out a full course yellow for Webbers accident. They then put out a red flag on Alonsos. They then push back time and put the red on Webbers. Surely, there must be some rule or wording that says they can do that.

I don't agree that it's logical. There was obviously concern that they need to get the cars through there, hence the full course yellow, but not red. The idea behind the red is that its just not safe to continue... a little to late to be moving it back from Alonsos perspective, as effectively it only changes the result not the safety. If it's a red condition it should have been so straight away, not fart-arsing around for a lap and a bit.

[michaelab]

Originally posted by kanec
I don't agree that it's logical. There was obviously concern that they need to get the cars through there, hence the full course yellow, but not red. The idea behind the red is that its just not safe to continue... a little to late to be moving it back from Alonsos perspective, as effectively it only changes the result not the safety. If it's a red condition it should have been so straight away, not fart-arsing around for a lap and a bit.

Well, they put out a full course yellow right away because that's not really a decision that needs a lot of consideration as it won't impact things that much. Red flag on the other hand is a major decision that isn't taken lightly so once Webber went off they put out the SC and then started deciding whether they should red flag, Alonso's crash just helped them decide more quickly what they would have done anyway IMO so it's still clear that Webber's crash is the start of the red flag incident and therefore that should be where the 2 lap countback happens.

Michael.

[kanec]

I understand your point Michael but I'm sorry I just don't agree 100%.

No driver should be crashing into the wheel of a car under full course yellows. If it's that bad it should be red straight away.

Changing flag colours that didn't actually happen in reality is just Mickey Mouse IMO. If it's red its red, yellow then yellow (shame it wasn't Rubens in Kimis spot - that could lead to a loverly and very confusing conversation given the car colours ;) ).

[random]

If red and yellow situations used the same rule, that positions would be based on position on the track at the time of the flag, there wouldn't have been any controversy.

[pRy]

Originally posted by kanec


And that's what pissed me off so much about it. That's how I see it as well, but for some reason they decided to declare the initial accident of Webbers the red flag incident.

Under which rule does this fall to allow them to do this?

But what if after the Webber crash they immediately sent out the pace car, but we never got to see that because of the lack of digital coverage? personally I'm waiting on Tag to post the results sheet so I can see if the pace car did indeed enter the circuit, in which case any passing would be against the rules.

So if the pace car did join the circuit before the red flag, then the result would have been the lap prior to the pace car entering the circuit, as the pace car didn't have a chance to pull back in and resume the race.

Hense 2 laps rather than 1?

Maybe i'm wrong about the PC but I'd say that must be why.

Don't blame Alonso. The part of the circuit he crashed at is unsighted and also it's not a straight piece of track both on bend and height.

[Mat]

Originally posted by random
Take this example: Towards the end of the race a heavy rain falls, the officials decide to unfurl a full course yellow and wait it out. They run at least two laps under yellow and the weather worsens or gets no better. The officials then decide to unfurl the red flag and end the race. The finishing order will be based on the exact position of the cars the instant the full course yellow was first shown.

Take this same situation, with the only difference that when the heavy rain starts, the officials call a red flag instead of a full course yellow. In this case, the finishing order does not reflect the position on the track the instant the flag was show, it reverts 2 laps prior to the heavy rain.

The same incident, depending on the whim of an official can have widely varying results. The FIA need to synchronize the rules for yellow and red flags. They already have to figure relative positions for full course yellows, so carrying this to red flag situations should not be much of a challenge.

Ok, I see what your trying to say random. You've got a good point, but personally I am happy to leave it the way it is. It would have been great to have it the way you want, because that would make it a Fisi win. But I also dont see a problem with the way its done now- it has served us well for many years now.

[kanec]

Originally posted by pRy


But what if after the Webber crash they immediately sent out the pace car, but we never got to see that because of the lack of digital coverage? personally I'm waiting on Tag to post the results sheet so I can see if the pace car did indeed enter the circuit, in which case any passing would be against the rules.

So if the pace car did join the circuit before the red flag, then the result would have been the lap prior to the pace car entering the circuit, as the pace car didn't have a chance to pull back in and resume the race.

Hense 2 laps rather than 1?

Maybe i'm wrong about the PC but I'd say that must be why.

Don't blame Alonso. The part of the circuit he crashed at is unsighted and also it's not a straight piece of track both on bend and height.

pRy, Where can we see the Tag results when they are posted?

Isn't full course yellow rules say that there is no passing already regardless of the PC?

I don't blame Alonso at all, my point about him hitting the tyre is that he should not have been put in a situation that he did hit that tyre at that speed and in that corner is more directed at the rules. If full course yellows aren't sufficient for that situation and they are to meek to show the red even with that amount of time then they need to do something surely to address that situation occuring again. That was a nasty shunt.

Edit: Imagine if the FIA didn't go back on the no pit-car telemetry rule change. Yowser!

[DEVO]

Fisi had one complete lap where he was in the lead and the outcome of that lap was not determined by the yellow/red chain of events. If you rewind the standings to that point then fisi is the leader and winner of the race. Going back 2 laps makes no sense and in this day in age a better system could be put into place.

Anyway, I hate wet weather racing because you just know the SC (and for good reason, too dangerous) is going to come out and ruin the race. They should have postponed the race 30 minutes and have cars go around to "dry" the track up a bit. Or change the rules for tires manf. to allow them to bring 2 sets of wets.

I don't have a clue why the tire manf. went to Brazil with inters when everybody was predicting heavy rain.

[random]

Originally posted by DEVO
I don't have a clue why the tire manf. went to Brazil with inters when everybody was predicting heavy rain.

Because if one manufacturer had brought full wets to Brazil, they would have failed their teams. Full wets would have torn themselves to shreds on that mostly dry track, in addition they wouldn't have provided nearly the contact patch of the intermediates. The lap times of full wets would have been awful and it was still far too wet for dry tires.

Of course, one could argue that with full wets the race could have started on time. I disagree, if only one manufacturer had selected full wets and the other intermediates, I still think we would have had a delayed start. I just couldn't see the FIA allowing the race to start with half the field on intermediates. Yes, it's unfair to the runners with full wets, but it's dangerous for those on intermediates.

As I've posted before, when limited to a single construction, the only logical choice for the tire companies is to bring an intermediate. That way, if it rains really hard the officials will be forced to use the safety car. I suspect we won't see full wets again unless the FIA allows more than a single wet construction. Although I do hope they allow at least two constructions in the future.

[Nikos Spagnol]

All that discussion about what caused the red flag (if Webber's debris or Alonso's massive shunt that blocked the track) seems bogus to me, as both accidents happened on the same lap: AFTER Fisi crossed the line on the lead for the first time (end of lap 54) and BEFORE he crossed it again (end of lap 55). Yes, because Alonso hit the Webber's whell (begining of the crash) when Fisi was ABOUT to cross the line.

Look at the replays and you'll see.

[Fastcar]

Originally posted by Nikos Spagnol
All that discussion about what caused the red flag (if Webber's debris or Alonso's massive shunt that blocked the track) seems bogus to me, as both accidents happened on the same lap: AFTER Fisi crossed the line on the lead for the first time (end of lap 54) and BEFORE he crossed it again (end of lap 55). Yes, because Alonso hit the Webber's whell (begining of the crash) when Fisi was ABOUT to cross the line.

Look at the replays and you'll see.

Look at the replay a bit harder and you see when Fisi was carefully treading through the debris he was about to cross the line AGAIN in the lead, he had already crossed the line once in the lead, the race lap of lap 54 was completed in full by Fisichella having taken Raikkonen then he crossed the line for lap 55 and came across the debris at the end of that lap there was no need to take away lap 54 the boys who crashed should've been classified 1 lap down like they normally would if they crashed on the end lap of a grand prix, why not ? why different ? the end is the end whether it be earlier than normal or not.

The race being stopped should count the last leaders finished lap in full as the end of the race just like the chequered flag had been show for the end if anyone crashes on that lap on their way around tough luck they get classed 1 lap down. Alonso crashed he doesn't deserve 3rd place nor Webber 7th whatever.

[RJL]

IMO the "count back two laps" thing is a stupid rule that completely manipulated the actual on track results. I was really annoyed that I had wasted two hours to watch this debacle. it makes the Rubens/ Michael "after you" affairs of last year pale by comparison.

[MrAerodynamicist]

According my source at Ilmor, the post race confusion came from the fact they had already decided to use the red *before* Alonso crashed. Not sure of any more details, I'm guessing that Fisi crossed the finish line in that no-mans land when the red has been called but not fully implemented.

[Fastcar]

Originally posted by MrAerodynamicist
According my source at Ilmor, the post race confusion came from the fact they had already decided to use the red *before* Alonso crashed. Not sure of any more details, I'm guessing that Fisi crossed the finish line in that no-mans land when the red has been called but not fully implemented.

Now that would be fair enough totally understandable and more sense than the silly situation where 'the race' dictated by Fisi was on the 56th lap thus the result upto the 55th counting regardless of the others classing the crashers 1 lap down fairly just as the end of a normal length race does if they were to crash.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by kanec
Nice one. I forgot about that race. Google says 92. http://cfm.globalf1....es/articles/19/

You could have been reminded here... on this current thread...

http://www.atlasf1.c...&postid=1221780

[Nikos Spagnol]

Originally posted by RJL
IMO the "count back two laps" thing is a stupid rule that completely manipulated the actual on track results. I was really annoyed that I had wasted two hours to watch this debacle. it makes the Rubens/ Michael "after you" affairs of last year pale by comparison.

It's not stupid not unfair. Think about that fiction in Monaco:

End of lap 60 - Schumacher leading, Kimi chasing

End of lap 61 - Kimi leading, somehow. Schummi second

But then, Barrichello (3rd.) and Coulthard (4th.) crash in Rascasse corner and blocks the track. Both are ABOUT TO COMPLETE lap 61. Drivers coming behind are unable to avoid the wreckage, and red flag came out.

Kimi and MS are already in lap 62. Results from lap 61 are affected by the crash, so it wouldn't be fair to consider them. It's also safer, because otherwise the drivers would be fighting to cross the line at lap 61, regardless to the debris or marshalls trying to rescue Rubens or something. Resuts are taken from lap 60, completed by everyone, with no influence of any kind.

Though luck to Kimi, that managed to overtake MS in Monaco!

[wawawa]

Originally posted by random
Take this example: Towards the end of the race a heavy rain falls, the officials decide to unfurl a full course yellow and wait it out.

...

The same incident, depending on the whim of an official can have widely varying results.

Excellent points! Great post

[maxie]

I am of the opinion that the race result as of lap 54 should stand, and Fisi the winner. And I believe that the red flag was for Alonso and it came out shortly after Fisi had crossed the finish line in the lead for the second time.

I understand the rule which is to safeguard the interest of the drivers immediately behind the scene of the accident, as illustrated by the Monaco example. But let us assume it was Webber's accident which brought out the red flag. At the time he crashed, the two cars immediately behind him were Trulli and Ralf. (The one behind Ralf should be Fisi, as Da Matta has already been lapped.) Was Trulli or Ralf affected or held up by Webber's wreck? IMHO No. They both completed lap 54 safely and remained in the same order. So lap 54 should have been counted and be regarded as a (and the last) completed lap. The only lap affected by the accident was lap 55, where Alonso messed up everything which blocked most of the track. It should be the only lap which should be left out.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Tomecek
It's simple. This case is good example. Crash happened on lap 54, race was stopped on lap 55. Means results at the end of lap 54 was already affected by this accident. That's why they are going one more lap further back.

But the crash happened when Fisichella was on lap 56 and crashees at the end of lap 55.

Hrvoje

[sensible]

Originally posted by Mat


But your missing the point. Its not about the difficulty in figuring who is in what position, its about going back to the next closest point in the race in which the red flag incident had no influence on the race.

Why should it matter that the red flag incident had an influence on the race. I thought the red flag was about safety and nothing else. The safety car doesnt cause the following pack back-track their positions two laps. This means that the judgement about whether to red-flag or safety car can influence the result. If the race on sunday was safety carred at the exact same point (I relalise this was impracticle here - I use it merely for illustration) and they'd been forced to follow it until the finish, then the result would have been very different. Surely this cant be right?

The point of the determination of a race result after a red flag, I believe, is to determine who is the fairest winner, or what would the most likely result have been had the race not been stopped. For example, plainly in Sunday's race, Alonso would not have been 3rd had the race continued.

I dont see why its so difficult to put together a better rule. For example The order is determined by:

1. Only cars running when the race was stopped can be considered. (because to finish first you first have to finish)
2. Preliminary order given by the order at the last timing beam passed by the lead car before the red flag. Time diffs by the last timing beam both cars passed (ie to determine gap between 4 & 5). (because track position now is generally more influential than track position 2 laps agao in determining the most likely result)
3. All cars have fuel measured. If a car clearly does not have enough fuel to reach the end of the race, then it is penalised the average pit stop time and re-classified accordingly. (because it's unfair that late pit-stops should influence final position)
4. Other sections as required.

I believe that this would have given a much fairer result on Sunday and other such incidents.