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The driver/car combinations that didn't happen...


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#1 David Beard

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 11:56

Moss didn't drive the Shark Nose Ferrari....there were many similar "might have beens" that didn't happen because of circumstances. Wasn't Ronnie going to McLaren, for a start?

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:15

And Jochen staying at Brabham's with a Cossie...

#3 ian senior

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:18

Chris Amon returning to March in 1973, or did I dream this?

#4 Gary Davies

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:29

Amon in the 312B and 312B2. Sigh.

#5 Tim Murray

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:35

Tony Brooks in the P578.

#6 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:37

Damon Hill was apparently on his way to Benetton at some point of the 1994 season (Murray Walker and Jonathan Palmer discussed this during the German GP). Not the most spectacular of driver/car combinations perhaps :smoking:

Prost was fairly close to driving for McLaren in 1994 and for Ligier in 1992

#7 petefenelon

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:39

Originally posted by Vanwall
Amon in the 312B and 312B2. Sigh.


Chris in a Marlboro-backed 312B3 in '74 - it was rumoured wasn't it, after his own car turned out to be... not very good....

pete

#8 petefenelon

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:44

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
Damon Hill was apparently on his way to Benetton at some point of the 1994 season (Murray Walker and Jonathan Palmer discussed this during the German GP). Not the most spectacular of driver/car combinations perhaps :smoking:

Prost was fairly close to driving for McLaren in 1994 and for Ligier in 1992



Emmo to either Brabham or more probably Tyrrell with Marlboro money in '74 - mentioned in "Wayward Genius"

The one-car Rindt/Herd/Ecclestone team instead of the '70 March menagerie - perhaps with Bernie moving Robin into Brabham later on, who knows?

Senna in the Penske Indycar he tested against Mansell in the Lola. Now that would've been mindblowing.

Little Al in a Williams, Paul Tracy in a Benetton....

Gunnar Nilsson in the Arrows A1 :(

Stirling in the '56 Mercedes - 4wd, a v8 and nearly 300bhp if what the rumours say is nearly true?

#9 petefenelon

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:44

Originally posted by ian senior
Chris Amon returning to March in 1973, or did I dream this?


Discussed on the thread;)

#10 petefenelon

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:48

Now there's a thought - who was tenatatively down to drive the Winkelmann-Lotus and Ferrari Indycars? The gas-turbine Essex-Lotus car at Le Mans? The "Baby Benz" hatchback 190-based rally car? - a few interesting cars that never competed ;)

pete

#11 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:49

Dario Franchitti at Jaguar and perhaps an even more dauntling prospect: Stefan Bellof in a Ferrari in 1986 :smoking:

#12 byrkus

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 12:59

Jean Alesi in Williams... Talk about missing oportunities :smoking:

#13 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 13:04

Originally posted by byrkus
Jean Alesi in Williams... Talk about missing oportunities :smoking:


Yes, that's a good one :up:

Talking about Damon Hill - he was offered a contract by McLaren for 1998. I wonder what might have been...

#14 GitarreroNils

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 14:32

Hey, I love this kind of threads!!!

I wonder what might have been to the following drivers in formula 1 cars:

AJ Foyt, Parnelli Jones, Al Unser Sr. and Jr., Jean Pierre Jaussaud, Bob Wollek, Klaus Ludwig, Maurizio Flammini, Giancarlo Martini, Arie Luyendyk, Richard Dallest, Eje Elgh, Michel and Alain Ferte, John Nielsen, Ross Cheever, Antonio Tamburini, Mauro Martini, Kelvin Burt, Jordi Gene, Gil de Ferran, Marc Goossens, Kenny Bräck, Jörg Müller, Oliver Gavin, Tom Kristensen, Jason Watt, Dari Franchitti, Gonzalo Rodriguez, Nicolas Minassian, Greg Moore, Helio Castroneves, Bruno Junqueira.....

They are all drivers, who had/have pretty much of talent and deserved a seat in formula 1.

Also there are drivers, who deserved more time in formula 1 cars (full seasons):

Bobby Unser, Ernestro Brambilla, Marco Apicella, Allan McNish, Michael Bartels, Vincenzo Sospiri, Stephane Sarrazin, Alex Wurz, Marc Gene, Luca Badoer, etc......and of course all those drivers who were severly injured or died.....

Imagine Gilles Villeneuve vs. Ayrton Senna, Wimille vs. Fangio vs. Ascari, Peter Collins vs. Jim Clark, Ricardo Rodriguez vs. Jim Clark vs. E. Fittipaldi vs. Bandini, Pedro Rodriguez vs. Niki Lauda; Williamson, Pryce and Brise against each other, Bellof against Senna and Senna vs. Schumacher vs. J.Villeneuve......the list goes on...

There are also future prospects, I like to see in formula 1 like Bourdais, Pantano, Montagny Wirdheim, Ricardo Sperafico, Tomas Scheckter, Anthony Davidson, Ryo Fukuda.......

:love:

#15 dretceterini

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 14:35

Phil Hill going somewhere other than ATS..

#16 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 14:36

Derek Warwick in a 1986 Lotus :smoking:

#17 theunions

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 16:46

Originally posted by petefenelon
Now there's a thought - who was tenatatively down to drive the Winkelmann-Lotus and Ferrari Indycars?


First Willy T., then Al Jr. in the former, Rahal in the latter.

Another combo: John Watson & Toleman in '85.

And Rick Mears & Brabham in '81, if Bernie had been able to convince Rick to become a paying driver.

#18 petefenelon

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 19:17

Originally posted by theunions


First Willy T., then Al Jr. in the former, Rahal in the latter.

Another combo: John Watson & Toleman in '85.

And Rick Mears & Brabham in '81, if Bernie had been able to convince Rick to become a paying driver.


Isn't the story there that Bernie and Mears were discussing terms, and had agreed on $250000 for the race, the only difference being that Mears thought Bernie was giving him the quarter-million rather than vice-versa?;)


pete

#19 David Beard

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 20:35

Colin Chapman in the Vanwall, if he had got beyond that practice session....

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#20 Tumppi@BXL

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 20:53

Originally posted by byrkus
Jean Alesi in Williams... Talk about missing oportunities :smoking:


1993. Hakkinen. Williams :cry:

#21 lustigson

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 21:02

I am surprised that no-one mentioned Senna-Ferrari yet. :

#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 21:48

Originally posted by dretceterini
Phil Hill going somewhere other than ATS..


Well, he did the following year, to Cooper... and it ended in tears.

And latching onto that line, what of Tim Mayer in the Coopers and McLarens he would have been in but for his untimely demise?

#23 m.tanney

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 21:56

A.J. Foyt in a works BRM - Sheldon shows him entered in the US and Mexican GPs in 1964. Anyone have any details?

Wasn't there some talk of Parnelli Jones driving an F1 Lotus c.1964-65?

Peter Revson with Ferrari in 1974. Apparently, the deal fell through because of his desire to drive at Indianapolis.

#24 Roger Clark

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 22:54

Froilan Gonzalez in a Lotus 25?

#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 22:58

Seeing as we're going off on that tangent... what about Dan Gurney in a 1963 ATS?

#26 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 23:24

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Froilan Gonzalez in a Lotus 25?


:lol: :lol: Or even 'Orrice Gould? :)

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Seeing as we're going off on that tangent... what about Dan Gurney in a 1963 ATS?


His feet would probably have stuck out the front! Roger and I saw Phil Hill threading his way into the ATS last year and he was cramped enough ... :)

#27 scheivlak

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 23:39

Always wondered what Keke Rosberg would have done with a 1986/1987 Williams-Honda...

#28 m.tanney

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Posted 09 April 2003 - 23:52

Originally posted by petefenelon
Now there's a thought - who was tenatatively down to drive the Winkelmann-Lotus and Ferrari Indycars? The gas-turbine Essex-Lotus car at Le Mans?


The gas-turbine Esex-Lotus car at Le Mans? I've never heard of such a thing. I know it's O.T., but can you tell me a little more about it, Pete?

Mike

#29 lustigson

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 06:19

And, to keep it a little closer to home, what about Michael Schumacher in a Benetton-Renault B196?

#30 Roger Clark

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 06:26

Jim Clark in a Lotus 72
Stirling Moss in a Lotus 49
Tazio Nuvolari in an Alfa 158
Peter Collins in a Lotus
Ronnie Peterson in anything turbocharged
Dick Seaman in a V16 BRM
Bernd Rosemeyer in a W196
Jackie Stewart in a P34
John Surtees in any post-1966 Ferrari
Alberto Ascari in a Ferrari-entered Lancia
Bruce in an M23
Michael Schumacher in a W125

#31 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 09:18

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....His feet would probably have stuck out the front! Roger and I saw Phil Hill threading his way into the ATS last year and he was cramped enough ... :)


I was thinking rather more of how much higher his head would be than Phil's was... already too much of him out of the cockpit...

#32 Gary Davies

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 09:24

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Stirling Moss in a Lotus 49


Yes, loved that one, Roger ... thought of it meself :) He would have been 39 by then, but surely as competitive as ever.

The other one that tantalises, had the arrangement survived four years, is The Golden Boy in a Walker Ferrari 312 in 1966. Would les autres have laid a hand on him in the first year of The Return to Power?

#33 petefenelon

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 09:24

Originally posted by m.tanney


The gas-turbine Esex-Lotus car at Le Mans? I've never heard of such a thing. I know it's O.T., but can you tell me a little more about it, Pete?

Mike


It's mentioned in Crombac's book on Chapman - partly as a sign of the influence David Thieme exerted over him (remember Chapman said he'd never, ever go back!). I don't know how far it got (probably no further than sketches?). Thieme had already sponsored Porsche at Le Mans, he wanted to do the same for Lotus - I am not sure where the gas-turbine idea came from, Chapman, Thieme or Rudd, but Rudd looked around for engines... the plan was to use a Rolls Royce Gem gas-turbine (which certainly has the right sort of horsepower) and to use some of the prodigious amount of gas it generated to give ground-effect.

#34 GitarreroNils

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 13:26

Elio de Angelis in any Formula 1 car after 1986 (Brabham 1987?, Ferrari?, Benetton?)


Paul Warwick in any Formula 1 car after his fatal crash (Lotus?, March?, Arrows?) :love:


In the thread "Almost Moves" someone wrote that Paul Stewart was ready to drive for Minardi in 1994. Now, that would have been also very interesting to see...... :eek:


Nils

#35 Frank de Jong

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 14:28

From the lowlands:
Michael Bleekemolen & the Lotus "B" team in 1979
Huub Rothengatter & Tyrrell 1981 (He was outgunned by Alboreto. Perhaps a wise choice)
Jan Lammers & March 1993
Jos Verstappen & Honda

#36 2F-001

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 14:42

I read there was some talk of Roger Williamson going to Tyrrell, once Ken knew that Stewart was plannng to retire. Does anyone know just how real a possibility this was?

#37 theunions

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 16:40

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
Michael Bleekemolen & the Lotus "B" team in 1979


Could you elaborate about the "B" team?

#38 SeanValen

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 16:49

Originally posted by lustigson
I am surprised that no-one mentioned Senna-Ferrari yet. :


Exactly, that's the first thing I thought of when I saw the topic title. :smoking:

Although he was young and learning, really would of been interesting to see Schumacher alongside Mansell in that dominant williams in 1992.

#39 bill moffat

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 18:54

Barrichello in a works-supported Ferrari ?

Perry McCarthy in anything swift enough to enable qualification (or atleast get out of the pitlane) ??

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#40 David Beard

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 20:21

Originally posted by bill moffat
Barrichello in a works-supported Ferrari ?


Very good :lol:

I always fancied the idea of Colin McRae in a Stewart...without traction control of course.

#41 petefenelon

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Posted 10 April 2003 - 21:02

Originally posted by 2F-001
I read there was some talk of Roger Williamson going to Tyrrell, once Ken knew that Stewart was plannng to retire. Does anyone know just how real a possibility this was?


I'd guess fairly unlikely - Tom Wheatcroft had ordered two M23s to get them going properly in F1, and they were going to build their own car for '75. (source: Tremayne, Racers Apart, which has lovely chapters on Tom Pryce and Roger Williamson)

pete

#42 fvebr

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 06:59

The Biggest thing i think was 1974....

Jarier signing an exclusive contract with Ferrari.... But a stupid newspaper revealed it, Mosley made such a mess that finally contract was abandonned by the commendatore... Enzo finally signed..........Lauda for what his been since....

Imagine Godasse de Plomb in 1975 as 1st driver with that Ferrari.... If you want i can post the whole story taken from 'Sport Auto' and written by José rosinski...

#43 theunions

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 07:43

Originally posted by fvebr
The Biggest thing i think was 1974....

Jarier signing an exclusive contract with Ferrari.... But a stupid newspaper revealed it, Mosley made such a mess that finally contract was abandonned by the commendatore... Enzo finally signed..........Lauda for what his been since....

Imagine Godasse de Plomb in 1975 as 1st driver with that Ferrari.... If you want i can post the whole story taken from 'Sport Auto' and written by José rosinski...


The same subject is explored in the Jarier feature in last month's issue of Motor Sport.

#44 Frank de Jong

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 08:47

Originally posted by theunions


Could you elaborate about the "B" team?


Bleekemolen's backers F&S properties were planning to run 2 lotus 79 cars in 1979. IIRC the second seat was first offered to Lammers (their archrival from 78 and earlier, who chose Shadow instead) but later I think Keegan was mentioned. I would have to look up why the thing collapsed (something with licenses?) - money was not the problem.

#45 John B

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Posted 11 April 2003 - 17:34

I'm showing some homer-ism here admittedly, but I've wondered how Micheal Andretti might have done had he started his career in 1994 at McLaren. The relative lack of competitiveness of that car might have worked to his advantage, as there wouldn't be pressure to match Senna running in the top 3 at every GP. With some time to work his way in, he might have adapted to the way things work in F1. Of course, it is true he probably wouldn't have signed for less than a top situation (he thought Renault was coming to McLaren for 93) in the first place, with top rides beckoning in CART.....

#46 Ralliart

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 13:20

Having just seen Bobby Unser interviewed regarding his new autobiography, I was reminded of how he got jobbed with BRM in '68 and what might've have happened had he opted to drive full time in '69. A Lotus team of Andretti, Rindt and Unser? I doubt it was ever considered but Unser joins Mears, Foyt, Jones and others as what ifs. Lauda talks about being invited back to Ferrari after his comeback with McLaren but declined as they wouldn't pay him enough. If the money had been there, Rindt wanted to return to Brabham in '70. Black Jack was going to step aside and Rindt might've loped to the championship in THAT car (as well, and also lived.) Jarier is not the first to sign with ferrari and then wait and then sign with someone else, I'll bet. Ickx almost did the same thing. Signed for them, didn't hear, was about to go with Tyrrell in '68 when he was told that Matra was not going to field two cars. He then signed with Ferrari at the last minute only to find out that Matra would, indeed, have two cars, for Stewart and Beltoise (or three? with Servoz-Gavin.) After his sensational debut with McLaren, apparently Villeneuve heard from ferrari and only Ferrari (if other teams were interested in him, I've never heard) but no definite word for a long time and had to call them back under false pretenses whereupon he was asked to come to Maranello. If another team had contacted him in the interim (like McLaren), that's food for thought.

#47 GitarreroNils

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 15:30

Onofre Marimon in a 1957 Maserati 250F would've been cool!!!

#48 scheivlak

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 20:04

Originally posted by Ralliart
Ickx almost did the same thing. Signed for them, didn't hear, was about to go with Tyrrell in '68 when he was told that Matra was not going to field two cars. He then signed with Ferrari at the last minute only to find out that Matra would, indeed, have two cars, for Stewart and Beltoise (or three? with Servoz-Gavin.)


There were two different teams in 1968 entering one Matra each for most of the season: Ken Tyrrell's Matra International with JYS driving the MS 10-Cosworth (substituted temporarely by JPB and JSG when injured) and the French Matra Sports team with Jean-Pierre Beltoise driving the MS 11-Matra V12. Both teams entered a second car only much later in the season for Johnny Servoz-Gavin and Henri Pescarolo respectively.
I guess that if Jacky Ickx was going drive a Matra in 1968 it would have been for Ken Tyrrell; however it looks like Ken could not guarantee that extra seat for his 1967 F2 star driver for the first part of the season.

#49 bobbo

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 21:53

. . .And, as a might-have-been, can we add Dan Gurney in the 1966-67 Brabham-Repcos? Could he have (say it quietly!) possibly have won the WC? Wouldn't THAT have been wunnerful!!!!

Bobbo

#50 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 22:23

Can't possibly wish for that...

We'd have been denied the beauty of the Eagle.