29 replies to this topic

[6Addict]

I caught the first few minutes of an infomercial on SpeedVision, right after this morning's 1st qual in San Marino.
It was an add for the "Tornado". The claim is that this simple contraption converts the turbulent airflow from the air intake into a controlled vortex to increases fuel efficiency and HP.

Here's a link to the official site for more info: http://www.tornadoair.com/tech.php

So, what do you think? Do you think it works? If so, do you think it's likely to better work on certain types of engines and why isn't it, or a similar concept already installed on all current production vehicles?
Finally, and assuming the claim of increased HP and mileage is genuine, would there be a drawback to using it?

[random]

One word. GARBAGE.

If it worked, K&N would be selling a version.

There's a whole slew of these automotive huckster items available on infomercials, including but not limited to teflon-engine protection. Don't waste your money.

[HKUSP40C]

If it did work, wouldn't you think that auto manufacturers would use them as a cheap source of adding power? The sad thing is that there are gullible people out there that buy these things.

[6Addict]

HKUSP40C,

If it did work, wouldn't you think that auto manufacturers would use them as a cheap source of adding power?

I would, and that's part of why I'm skeptical about their claims...

I was just curious if s.o. could offer a *technical* argument for/against this device.

Anyway, I have yet to see an infomercial about anything that is not a load of BS, so I'm inclined to think it's crap. But who knows.. there's a first for everything.

[12.9:1]

In the good old USA it's quite legal to exaggerate as much as you please if you have the $$$$$$ !

[6Addict]

btw, did you guys notice the link to John 3:16?.... weird.

[desmo]

http://www.tornadoair.com/john_316.php

Christians would never lie, given the commandments that would make them detestable hypocrites. I'm sold.

[Greg Locock]

Larry Meaux (MaxRaceSoftware) has been testing Tornados on some engines has had on his dyno, the results so far have been inconclusive at best. Unfortunately the thread with the results so far has been erased, but I seem to remember he showed some improvement that was greater than experimental error, on some engines, but that on average the result was zip.

[desmo]

Anyone else remember the little metal static pinwheel thingies that were sold to be put into intake ports to swirl the incoming charge to "dramatically increase power and fuel consumption"? I can't recall what those were called. Or the magnets one put on the fuel line Has any telemarketed invention of this sort ever worked at all? If any of these devices didn't actually harm performance I'd say that was pretty good Hippocratically.

[DEVO]

Originally posted by random
One word. GARBAGE.

If it worked, K&N would be selling a version.

There's a whole slew of these automotive huckster items available on infomercials, including but not limited to teflon-engine protection. Don't waste your money.

Why? K&N how should I put this... sucks. You might as well run without a filter. Increase air flow my a$$.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by desmo
Anyone else remember the little metal static pinwheel thingies that were sold to be put into intake ports to swirl the incoming charge to "dramatically increase power and fuel consumption"? I can't recall what those were called. Or the magnets one put on the fuel line Has any telemarketed invention of this sort ever worked at all? If any of these devices didn't actually harm performance I'd say that was pretty good Hippocratically.

I have seen such devices for the inlet air tested on a current affairs program, and the results were that the device didn't do anything to the engine - either positive or negative.

I remember that in about 1987/88 Australian motorsport legend Peter Brock was pushing the Energy Polariser - basically magnets installed on the fuel line.

[dolomite]

This one's even better......

Spiralmax

[6Addict]

This Spiralmax thing sounds similar in concept to the "Tornado"...
http://www.spiralmax.com/sm_photo.htm

Anyway, the only redeeming value of the ugly Spiralmax site is definitely this link: http://www.spiralmax.com/spirals.htm
an illusory vortex effect... the irony is painful!

DEVO,

You mention that K&N sucks... so is the whole concept of increased air-flow BS? If so, why?
Is it because the air intake is already maxed out by design and making more air available will not make any difference? i.e. the engine will only use the amount of air it needs, even if more air is available?

[nicholasc]

DEVO,

You mention that K&N sucks... so is the whole concept of increased air-flow BS? If so, why?
Is it because the air intake is already maxed out by design and making more air available will not make any difference? i.e. the engine will only use the amount of air it needs, even if more air is available? [/B]

if the airbox on a production vehicle is the controlling factor on vehicle performance then I'd assume someone has f#cked up

[random]

Originally posted by DEVO
Why? K&N how should I put this... sucks. You might as well run without a filter. Increase air flow my a$$.

K&N filters do increase airflow, I've seen too many positive dyno reports to believe otherwise. Certainly running without a filter would accomplish similar goals, but at a much greater possible long-term expense.

I suppose you're suggesting that K&N filters don't filter enough particles, and that stock filters are the end-all of filtering technology. I would have to disagree, most stock filters are just paper. Perhaps K&N filters don't filter quite enough particles for your liking, but one would think that if K&N filters caused damage they would be sued to within an inch of their life for all the damage they allowed to happen.

All that said, I've never felt it worthwhile to use K&N or any other aftermarket filters. 1% or 2% horsepower really isn't worth the expense.

[Marlowe]

Are any of these any of good?


http://www.knfilters.com/kits.htm

[random]

Originally posted by Marlowe
Are any of these any of good?

http://www.knfilters.com/kits.htm

Sure, they work, but don't expect much from them. I really doubt you'll be able to feel the HP difference. In my opinion, a 1% or 2% HP increase is just too small to feel in the seat of your pants.

[Greg Locock]

OK, time to get empirical again. Today's science project is building a U tube manometer and installing it to measure the pressure drop across the airbox in your car, at full throttle.

You will need 20 feet of 1/4" bore clear plastic tube or fuel tube, some water, tape, a white board, a texta and some food colouring. The U tube will need to be a couple of feet tall.

I hope I don't have to draw pictures, since this is a technical forum....

When you've done that, and you get a height difference in inches of water, then the power required to suck the air through the filter is given by deltaP*vdot, in W

vdot=volumetric flow rate=n/60*engine volume in litres/2000*VE/100
deltaP=1000*9.81*h(in inches)/40

1 hp=745.7 W

I'm not going to do this experiment today, but I know that the pressure drop across the whole intake measured at the manifold on our production car is always less than 2 kPa, or just over 1/2 hp for a 220 hp engine at 6000 rpm at full throttle (in my head). If anybody there has a MAP wired into a Motec they can interrogate that during a full throttle run.

The fun starts if we use the same airbox but double the power of the engine. Then the MAP would go up by 4 (roughly), and things start to get interesting, as that would give a 4 hp loss, which is starting to look measurable, if you do enough runs on the dyno.

Note that this is the MAXIMUM power that could be gained by eliminating the airbox, but ignores tuning effects, which I have bundled into VE but assumed 100%. (95-120 is a reasonable guess), and the resistance of the rest of the duct and the throttle. So K&Ns might help if you have a much more powerful engine than the original unit, and you have a sufficiently accurate dyno...

The Tornado type thingos might affect the turbulence in the intake system, and so they might improve the fuel vaporisation, if you have single point injection or a carb, since it could reduce pooling. The maximum angular velocity they impart is very small compared with the swirl seen in the chamber, so it cannot really affect what goes on inside the chamber.

[desmo]

K&N if I remember correctly, got a pretty good reputation back in the '80s with filter/jetting kits for motorcycles that did improve performance. I think that modern engines are pretty well optimized as they come from the factory nowadays so there is less scope for an aftermarket firm to provide a quick and easy performance increase without an accompanying downside. The engineers who design the OEM stuff now are pretty damn sharp.

I seem to recall that K&N makes some of the flat element filters used in F1 cars.

[random]

Cold air intakes can help a lot, but they're tricky to get right and if placed low tend to suck in water. Not so good for a daily driver.

[Yelnats]

The best answer it to consider the billions spent on design and optimization of engines today and how much American manufacturers would pay to acieve even a 1% power/fuel milage gain and then ask the question; Wouldn't they use the Tornado or something similar if it is so effective?

Another questions one could ask is; The energy used to spin the tornado comes from the inflowing air charge similar to a windmill which extracts energy from airflow. How is this benificial?

The commercial is deceptive in it's backup science which strains (and ruptures!) credibilty. I states that it's effect is exactly like a Turbo Jet which uses the same turbine technology. Not True! The turbojets turbine is driven device like a supercharger, not a passive windmill device like the Tornado.

And the topper is the lady who is convinced that the Tornado works because somebody borrowed her car an got a $187 speeding ticket!

Isn't it amazing what one can absorb while shareing a few pints at the pub after the race?

[DEVO]

Originally posted by 6Addict
This Spiralmax thing sounds similar in concept to the "Tornado"...
http://www.spiralmax.com/sm_photo.htm

Anyway, the only redeeming value of the ugly Spiralmax site is definitely this link: http://www.spiralmax.com/spirals.htm
an illusory vortex effect... the irony is painful!

DEVO,

You mention that K&N sucks... so is the whole concept of increased air-flow BS? If so, why?
Is it because the air intake is already maxed out by design and making more air available will not make any difference? i.e. the engine will only use the amount of air it needs, even if more air is available?

Ok... should have clarified. K&N increases air flow by allowing more air through their filter but at a cost. They claim they block certain size particles from getting by but I have friends who work on cars and they tell me that the K&N filter will harm your car over time because of the amount of dirt that gets by.

So yes they do increase air flow but at a cost.

[DEVO]

Originally posted by random
K&N filters do increase airflow, I've seen too many positive dyno reports to believe otherwise. Certainly running without a filter would accomplish similar goals, but at a much greater possible long-term expense.

I suppose you're suggesting that K&N filters don't filter enough particles, and that stock filters are the end-all of filtering technology. I would have to disagree, most stock filters are just paper. Perhaps K&N filters don't filter quite enough particles for your liking, but one would think that if K&N filters caused damage they would be sued to within an inch of their life for all the damage they allowed to happen.

All that said, I've never felt it worthwhile to use K&N or any other aftermarket filters. 1% or 2% horsepower really isn't worth the expense.

thanks... this is what i wanted to say. i have never seen a paper filter in for any car that I have ever worked on. The OEM filters seem to resemble heppa(sp) like material. I would trust that over any K&N product. Now if K&N can show the numbers as to what size particle is filtered (in micron) and what amount of increase is offered over it's OEM counterpart then maybe... as long as it is close. But I doubt it will be close.

I don't like K&N because of the amount of particles (this coming from friends who are mechanics and know the subject a lot better then me) they let by, not worth the risk for the amount of "power" they offer.

also, i don't think that OEM filters are the best but they are the min requirements that I would accept in any of my cars.

[int2str]

Ok, I'm a motorcycle guy, but I reply anyway...

K&N filters are very proven and mature. There particle filtration ratings are very good even compared to paper filters. Yes, they do let more "dirt" through than OEM filters, but I have never heard of damage caused by this.

They also are very race proven and I don't know any fellow motorcycle racer who would not run them even in their daily ride.

(Btw. I don't work for K&N)

Many of you stated that engineers are smart "now" and that factories would spend millions to design powerful engines. But your missing the point that engines are not tuned for power only. A big factor is pollution, followed by drivability and finally reliability. Open airfilters increase the intake noise. An "opened" engine might not meat EPA requirements, and a "power optimized" engine might not offer the best warm-up characteristics.

Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fuel aspect... While most current engines are running a little "rich" by default (for drivability), and so adding a more open airfilter leans it out and makes a little more power, ultimately you will need to add more fuel to compensate for the added air. If you have carburetors, they might need to be re-jetted, or your EFI needs to be reprogrammed (with a Dynojet power commander) for example. On modern cars the closed loop EFI systems might be able to compensate for a drop-in replacement filter (as in, a more open air filter which goes into the stock airbox), but if you get an open filter kit and dump the airbox, I bet you will need to reprogram your EFI/re-jet.

Just my $.02

Cheers,
Andre

[felttip]

The HP you gain with a K&N kit (less restrictive filter, shorter air intake) only is useful at full throttle towards peak RPM. The shorter intake actually negatively impacts low and mid-end torque, since there is less ram-air effect at the valves. Yes, for race-track conditions, getting those last 2% of HP is worth it, but for the average driver, low-end torque is more important (for passing on the highway, for example). HP is good for top-end speed, but torque is better for acceleration.

So for a daily driver, you lose some drivability for top-end power.

[int2str]

Lucius, (I didn't know you read AtlasF1 )

I don't agree.

As I said, the magic is "in the mix". So adding more air requires adding more fuel. Check out this link:
http://www.sagamlimi...pmr2/mydyno.htm
That guy simply reset his ECU and it managed to adjust to the filter (it's a closed loop system after all). The air is added all through the RPM range, so the lower range is not specifically affected.

The shorter intake length should be offset by a narrower intake, keeping the vaccum level about the same. Even so I bet slight changes in vacuum are not such a big deal.

On my bike I switched from the airbox to open K&N pod filters. This seriously reduces intake length and increases turbulence. Yet I picked up about 5% power all through the RPM range (after adjusting the jetting accordingly).

On the car, so far I'm only using the replacement filter. You're free to drive the Golf next time we meet and you tell me if low end is affected .

And lastly, "the average driver" is also not going to buy an aftermarket filter. Those who buy it want more power. And more power is what they get .

Cheers,
Andre

[int2str]

Some more info:
http://mkiv.com/tech...filters_test/2/

[felttip]

Hi Andre ,

The performance increase would depend on what vehicle you're modifying. I was thinking of the Mazda MX-5, and the response from people who have installed the K&N kit is that it gives about 2 hp more, but there's less power in stop-and-go traffic because the intake is right over the exhaust header, and is sucking in hot air. Some people have installed it anyway for the noise it makes (the engine sounds much faster, even if it's not really ;) ).

You still have the trade-off between performance and engine wear. But those who want more performance aren't that concerned about how the engine will run in 10 years time. The consensus seems to be that the K&N filters do work (but not always "up to 15 hp" that K&N claim), at a cost of more dust getting through.

[Christiaan]

I think intake manifolds and ports are designed already to create some sort of swirl in the air. The benefits are marginal but worth the xtra design effort. I saw that magnet fuel hose thing and they had one which was basically a fan installed in your fuel tank. By mixing and aerating the fuel before hand you got better power and lower consumption. In fact, if you cascaded all the devices that were on the market then, you'd actually drive to a petrol station and ask them to drain your petrol tank every 600 or so kilometers.

[MattPete]

Originally posted by desmo
Or the magnets one put on the fuel line

I remember Automobile magazine tested a Holden in the late-80's that featured (or added aftermarket?) a magnet around the fuel line that was supposd to polarize the molecules or something. I kept waiting for it to become an OEM part...but alas, I never heard about it again. Yes, I was a gullible college freshman...(but not gullible enough to buy the thing).