24 replies to this topic

[Herbert]

Does anybody have some info (and pics!) about the Maserati 250F Streamliner which Jean Behra drove in the 1955 Italian GP?
Was it used only in this race?
Were there other streamliner ever used in F1 (apart from the famous Mercedes W196 and the 1955 Cooper of Brabham)?

[Vrba]

Vanwall tried a streamliner in France in, I think, 1956 but it wasn't raced.
The same happened with Lancia-Ferrari D50 prepared as streamliner for 1956 Grand Prix de l'ACF.
D50 had side panniers so they added a full-width nose and rear fenders (I've seen pics with and without those fenders, though) and the car was tested by IIRC Castelloti and found unsuitable so it wasn't raced.
Ing. Giulio Alfieri of Maserati mentioned once, speaking about Maserati streamliner, that it was "certainly better than Ferrari's" :-)
From the memory, I can't say whether Maserati tried streamliner in Reims in 1956 or not.

Vanwall streamliner:


Ferrari streamliner:


Hrvoje

[Gary Davies]

[D-Type]

The 2.5 litre Connaught was originally a streamliner. There was a picture recently on TNF in one of Doug Nye's postings. They later changed to the "Syracuse" open wheeler because of the cost of repairs after an accident (Bear in mind that Connaught were never awash with cash).

It was 1957 when Vanwall tried their streamliner at Reims. Moss and Brooks were unavailable so Salvadori and Lewis Evans drove instead. I suspect that they were so busy getting to know the basic car that the streamliner never got seriously tried.
At Monza in 1957 or 1958 Moss tried a plexiglass lid over the cockpit. Although it gave a marginal improvement, he found the noise was unbearable. I believe the top was bolted down so he would have had no way out in the event of an accident.

In "A story of Formula 1", Jenkinson includes a chapter on streamlining and illustrates the Connaught, Maserati and Lancia-Ferrari versions as well as the W196.

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by D-Type
It was 1957 when Vanwall tried their streamliner at Reims. Moss and Brooks were unavailable so Salvadori and Lewis Evans drove instead. I suspect that they were so busy getting to know the basic car that the streamliner never got seriously tried.

It would appear to be more a case of Vanwall anticipating the streamliner to be more slippery than it turned out to be. When it first went out in practice, on the Wednesday, it was very slow, Jenks describing it as "hopelessly overgeared". For Thursday practice they fitted a lower axle ratio but it was still unacceptably slow. From the Motor Sport report, which doesn't have a practice times chart, one gains the impression that Lewis-Evans was setting the pace as soon as he reverted to the normal car.

[Don Capps]

Although referred to as '2518' the Monza streamliner was '2512' rebuilt and given the new chassis number. '2512' was the car Sergio Mantovani crashed at Torino leading to the amputation of a leg. I am certain David and Barrie can go into much more detail.

[Ian McKean]

I can't visualise the Cooper of 1955 (was it like the Man-tailed central seat sports car?) but remember they tried a streamliner in practice at Rheims in 1959 or was it 1960? It was very fast, IIRC but the handling wasn't so good

[Vrba]

Originally posted by D-Type
....
At Monza in 1957 or 1958 Moss tried a plexiglass lid over the cockpit. Although it gave a marginal improvement, he found the noise was unbearable. I believe the top was bolted down so he would have had no way out in the event of an accident.....

Jack Brabham also tried plexyglass cockpit "bubble" once at Monza during late 1960s, IIRC. Plexyglass warped vision and the cockpit was very hot so the experiment was quickly set aside.

Hrvoje

[DOHC]

Originally posted by Vrba


Jack Brabham also tried plexyglass cockpit "bubble" once at Monza during late 1960s, IIRC. Plexyglass warped vision and the cockpit was very hot so the experiment was quickly set aside.

Hrvoje

Saturday practice in 1967, I think.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Ian McKean
I can't visualise the Cooper of 1955 (was it like the Man-tailed central seat sports car?) but remember they tried a streamliner in practice at Rheims in 1959 or was it 1960? It was very fast, IIRC but the handling wasn't so good

The "1955 Cooper streamliner of Brabham" was a central seat bobtail sports car fitted with a Bristol engine that he ran in the British GP and some minor races. Although it had a 2 litre engine, at Aintree he entered it as a 2.2 litre as he knew the organisers wouldn't accept a 2 litre.

I don't recall a late 50's streamliner, but as TNF frequently proves, that doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't one. There could be some confusion with the streamlined 500 that Cooper ran at Avus and other fast circuits and later used for record breaking - there's been a thread on TNF about them.

[Don Capps]

Cooper trotted out a "streamliner" for Black Jack during practice for the 1959 GP de l'ACF at Reims. Since the car had a tendency to "wander" -- mostly due to the front tires barely touching the ground due to aero "float" -- it was put away..... There is a nice picture of it in Our Doug's Cooper book.

[Wolf]

Where does one draw the line between streamliner and 'ordinary' car? If having nose modified, as Lancia-Ferrari example suggests, Shirley, those two would be some sort of streamliners in their original configuration:

[Herbert]

Was the picture of the No.8 Ferrari really taken ath 1956 French GP? According to my sources Piero Taruffi (Maserati) had No. 8 at that race. The Ferraris were numbered from 10-16.
Any ideas?

[David McKinney]

If you're looking at Vanwall's post, the car is the 250F Maserati streamliner (with Moss at the wheel). The Ferrari is in the second vrba post. Both are at Rheims 1956

[Herbert]

Thanks, now I can spot the difference. I have to open my eyes!!!

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Herbert
Was the picture of the No.8 Ferrari really taken ath 1956 French GP? According to my sources Piero Taruffi (Maserati) had No. 8 at that race. The Ferraris were numbered from 10-16.
Any ideas?

It's a Maserati, not a Ferrari.

edit: I was too slow :-)

Hrvoje

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by Vrba


Jack Brabham also tried plexyglass cockpit "bubble" once at Monza during late 1960s, IIRC. Plexyglass warped vision and the cockpit was very hot so the experiment was quickly set aside.

Hrvoje

[GIGLEUX]

To answer to question n.2 of Herbert,the streamlined Maserati appeared three times:

-Gran Premio d'Italia 11/09/1955: N.36 Jean Behra 4 th

-Gran Premio di Siracusa 23/10/1955: N.18 Harry Schell 5th

-Grand Prix de l'A.C.F. 01/07/1956 used by Behra and Moss during practise sessions;did'nt start.

In 1955 Lancia had prepared a streamlined coachwork to use on the D50 at Reims and Monza.It was rather different than the one used by Ferrari at Reims during practise in 1956.

[marat]

The Ferrari streamliner was a normal car with an special nose and the possibility to have the
rear wheels covered (Motorsport published a photo, Castellotti driving).
It was in fact de Portago's car.
The original Lancia streamliner had also the front wheels covered and looked like a W196 MB
the only big difference being the air intake on the middle of the engine cover.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
To answer to question n.2 of Herbert,the streamlined Maserati appeared three times:

-Gran Premio d'Italia 11/09/1955: N.36 Jean Behra 4 th

-Gran Premio di Siracusa 23/10/1955: N.18 Harry Schell 5th

-Grand Prix de l'A.C.F. 01/07/1956 used by Behra and Moss during practise sessions;did'nt start.

In 1955 Lancia had prepared a streamlined coachwork to use on the D50 at Reims and Monza.It was rather different than the one used by Ferrari at Reims during practise in 1956.

Welcome to TNF, GIGLEUX, sounds like you have lots of information at your disposal...

I certainly hope you take the opportunity to exercise your knowledge on the forum, but in the meantime I'll post a picture of Brabham's 1955 Aintree car...



This is during the course of him winning the Australian Grand Prix at Port Wakefield later that year... I think I read somewhere it was the only race it finished, at least in Australia.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I think I read somewhere it was the only race it finished, at least in Australia.

Possibly the first race it finished, but certainly not the only one

[Ray Bell]

Here it is... from the AGP book...

"...not only finishing the AGP for the first time, but also finishing his longest-ever drive in the one-off Cooper..." and then it details some subsequent races where it won a minor scratch race, jumping out of gear at Southport and bending valves, splitting its gearbox at Ardmore, being left behind at Orange and then breaking a cam follower in practice at Fishermen's Bend...

In the prelude to this report, Graham says: "It was a virtual orphan, and it tended to behave like one. Its UK outings, starting with the British GP in July, produced three successive DNFs before it scored two fourths at Chaterhall and another fighting fourth, after leading Moss in the rain, at Snetterton. The car was then shipped to Australia - where it proceeded to DNF some more: it sheared its oil pump drive and probably damaged the engine during practice for the October Bathurst meeting, then had more oil-system trouble at Orange two days later, coasting into second after leading a preliminary, then retiring after just one lap of the main event. A week later... the car was at Port Wakefield for the Australian Grand Prix."

So you can see where my recollection was one of DNFs interspersed with little else to write home about?

[David McKinney]

Sorry - my immediate thought was he finished second at Orange the following January, but on reflection I might have been thinking of Jan 1955, not 1956
I'll have another look later

[john medley]

David
You are right again: the rear engined Brabham Cooper Bristol did finish second at Orange early 1956, behind Reg Hunt's Maserati 250F, Brabham's front engined C-B having run second the previous year behind Peter Whitehead's Ferrari

[Ray Bell]

I guess that's why Graham wrote 'coasting into second after leading a preliminary...'