29 replies to this topic

[David Beard]

I have only become a spectator at British historic motor racing events in the last two or three years. Before then (and it’s quite a few years back) my only experience of historic racing was the support races one used to see at British F1 events, and what I scanned over vaguely in Motor Sport in the days when it still covered current F1.

Now I’m a total convert to the historic scene, and wish I had paid more attention over the last 20 years. I’m wondering what you people think of how UK historic racing has changed in that period, and how it compares with what it was say, in the late seventies. My impression is that in those days you were more likely to see a car still racing with it’s original chassis, not over restored to make a competitive racer with super market value. On the other hand, perhaps a few years later, there seems to have been a period when various replicas and oversize engines were more readily tolerated than they are now.

[David Birchall]

I have observed UK historic racing mostly at a remove (Of eight thousand miles), through the pages of British magazines. I agree, it seemed at a peak of what, purity? in the seventies when with Michael Bowler as editor of "Classic and Sportscar" running an "Original" Lister Jag and all the races were reported in that magazine and others. Perhaps that was part of the "Problem". It raised the awareness of so many people towards historic racing which of course, caused an increase in the value of the cars and made replicas financially viable. Couple this with the Baby Boom generation's achievment of wealth and the wear and tear of constant racing and you have the present situation: Cars with replacement chassis, engines or bodies etc and in some cases all parts including the chassis plate!

Personally I am not against replicas in the pure sense. The problem is that people can rarely resist the temptation to "Improve" on the original and then you don't have a representative example of the type; you have a "Special". In N.America the scene is further compunded by "Transporter Wars". This where having aquired the best racing car(s) the owner now tries to outdo everybody with his method of delivering them to the track. It leaves little room for "Joe Blow" with his rusty Volvo station wagon and two wheeled trailer.

My own first entry in a major event was at the 1977 Montery Historics. I towed my Climax powered sports racer down on a borrowed two wheel trailer behind a borrowed Austin A55 pick up. As I pulled into the paddock at Laguna Seca, after a 1200 mile drive , I saw standing in the centre of the paddock a figure in a felt hat, hunting jacket and moleskin boots; it was Henry Manney directing traffic! I knew I had arrived in heaven!

[Mark A]

From what I have seen over the past few years (specifically in Historic rallying) the biggest problem is money!

I started in Historic Road rallying in the early 90's and the events would regularly get entries of 60-70 cars or more on some of the bigger events, but towards the end of the 90's people started throwing money at it. The avergae guy in a MIni or Imp he has owned for years who used to do quite well suddenly finds there are more 1965 Porsche 911 now than there were in 1965, cars costing £100k+ it got silly, and people stopped competing. I went back and did an event this year for the 1st time in 3 years, and it seems to be going back to the early 90's, hopefully, the ultra expensive stuff has gone either racing or stage rallying. People getting caught running dodgey stuff did help. Another problem I feel is the increase in the age limit, while some of the 911's were bad enough the MK1 Escorts now being used are the begining of the end really for Historic stage rallying, I mean there are Mk2 RS2000's still doing modern events.

As far as racing is concerned, I have watched a bit over the years and the cross-over to rallying, the same people etc helped keep an eye on what was happening. The cars were getting out of hand financially in racing even more so. A close look at a full blown Historic race Mini Cooper S is frightening the level of money that can be spent, on technology that wasn't available, even 4 years ago, never mind 40. Of course it never actually crosses the boundary to non legality but as an amatuer scene it was dying, and I think that is a great shame. Especially some of the 'replicas' which now exist, when you visit a race meeting everyone is drooling over some perfect Cobra replica, but miss the original Lister (all be it a bit rough round the edges) parked close by.


Sorry for the rant.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Mark A
.... when you visit a race meeting everyone is drooling over some perfect Cobra replica, but miss the original Lister (all be it a bit rough round the edges) parked close by.

Stuff the Cobra. Is Archie's cheese sandwich still under the Lister's seat?

[Ted Walker]

You must remember that Bowlers "original Lister Jaguar" Raced in period witha Chevvy, arrived in the UK fitted with automatic transmission and was raced in the uk witha fibreglass body.

[Peter Morley]

Having been historic racing for 20 years or so the biggest difference I've noticed is the money people spend on their racing.
20 Years ago most people turned up with their car on a trailer (if they didn't drive it there!), looked after it themselves (maybe had an unpaid mechanic) and stayed at the circuit.
Nowadays a lot of people employ a preparation company; who take the car to the circuit and look after it while it is there, all the owner does is turn up and drive (just as he would with a modern car).
This also means the quality of support vehicle has changed, a converted bus used to be a sophisticated transporter nowadays the cars come in F1 style transporters and the owners have motorhomes etc.
This 'professionalism' has diluted the casual, friendly, atmosphere from some events - but you can still find it at smaller events.
Similarly sponsorship has taken over, sometimes you get the impression the most important people there are the sponsors and their guests - we tend to wonder what they would do if the cars weren't there, and we suspect they wouldn't notice (certainly they don't at current GPs, when I was with Camel we took 100 people to Spa and only 2 of us actually watched the race and we were in the hotel at Eau Rouge with a fantastic viewpoint..........)..

Most of these comments apply to modern racing as well, so perhaps the gap between historic & modern racing has just narrrowed (e.g. participants just see it as another race series).

The issue of 'replicas' is not a new phenomenon, what is different is the emphasis placed on history now - 20 years ago if you didn't know the history of your car you could race it, even if you didn't know the manufacturer you could race!

Nowadays there is a lot of emphasis placed on the history of a car, unfortunately it has nothing to do with a car's originality - if you have continuous documented history you can replace every component and it is still an 'original' car. If you find an untouched original car in a barn, it is not original until you can prove the continuous history..........

Even in the 50's/60's people were building cars like Bugattis from assorted components, of course those cars are now old enough to have become 'original' (one such sold for a huge amount of money recently), but the issue of 'bitzas' etc. has been present from the very beginning of racing. Originally everyone modified their car to make it faster if they could, and as cars were damaged they were repaired in the easiest way possible.

The example of Micheal Bowler's Lister is a classic, most Listers had American V8s, but when they were brought back to Europe they aquired Jaguar engines (and relevant (hi)stories), but when someone eventually races a Chevy engines Lister and everyone realises it is quicker, then everyone remembers their Lister used to have a V8 in it............

Or Lotus 16's when they started winning all the historic races (just under 20 years ago), no one noticed that the rear track had changed.........
At the time no one cared whether they had 2 litre, 2.5 or even 2.7 litre engines, currently or originally, but that was because no one made FPFs at the time so you used whatever original engine you could find.

These 'aberrations' go on forever - it is amusing to see 'original' 250Fs where the owner kees the original engine somewhere safe, and uses the new engine because it is safer - the performance advantage is clearly an unfortunate side effect.

And of course another huge change is the number of events, there are so many more races, series, championships - presumably due to the amount of money being poured into historics, adn the increasing number of running cars.

A good effect of the increasing value of the cars is something that years ago wouldn't have been worth the cost of restoring, might be nowadays - now that 4.5 litre F1 cars are so dear, it is worth the cost of copying the 4.5 litre Duesenberg engine (there were only 2 made) so that the Emeryson Duesenberg can be raced again. 20 odd years ago it wouldn't have been worth restoring a Lago Talbot if it had the wrong engine.

Or bulding Lancia D50s, Audi-Unions etc. I know some people think it wrong to race them against oriinal cars but it is the only way we are going to see anything like the original grids, and for those of us who are too young to have seen them originally think it is great.

[eldougo]

Historic racing has in my opinion changed considerabliity over the years .An that is because
of MONEY ,i have noticed out here in OZ guys who have been unable to beat there friends
have bought FASTER cars costing bigs bucks to win a silver plated mug that cost $20 to buy.
They then began to run out of cars that would,t WIN so now they go to the states an get cars
that have never raced here in OZ , in classes we never had out here .It,s now spelt as follows
HI$TORIC RACING. :

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
You must remember that Bowlers "original Lister Jaguar" Raced in period witha Chevvy, arrived in the UK fitted with automatic transmission and was raced in the uk witha fibreglass body.

Just goes to show we should not trust to memory doesn't it? I did not know that car had a fibreglass body.
Its interesting about the Chevy v. Jaguar engines. The Chevy is about 200lb lighter, has greater capacity, greater piston area, and greater potential for tuning; why didn't the British racers realise it's potential?

[David McKinney]

Probably because the Jaguar-engined versions ran rings round the two Chev-powered cars that race in 1959 UK events.
You might also ask why the Cunningham team Jag versions in the US were (usually) faster than the Corvette versions they came up against

[Ray Bell]

Just to provoke some thought on this...

Was the V8 mounted further forward to make room for the driver's feet? This would have more than made up for any weight advantage, I would think, though I really don't believe the difference was 200 lbs.

[David Birchall]

Some interesting comments-although off-topic! I note from "Vintage and Historic Racing Cars" by Alex Gabbard and Dean Batchelor that the first car to road race a Chevy V8 was the HWM now owned by Simon Verdun-Roe on April 22nd 1956. Vec Edelbrock had built the engine and had been claiming "only" 230hp. However, by 1957 Chevrolet themselves were selling Corvettes with 283 bhp for regular road use and by 1959-60 Traco were getting 375 bhp for the Scarab engines. Remember, the V8s because of their larger capacity and piston area had better torque than the Jag six. "Horsepower sells engines but torque wins races" as Carroll Smith always says. In North America the dragster movement has had an enormous impact on the developement of production engines. The sheer numbers of participants makes it relatively cheap to make special parts and develope the engines. 500bhp from a small block Chevy is "easy" these days. But I suppose in 1959 with a Jag engine producing 300-310bhp and the Chev engine at about the same it would be a matter of the driver and Cunningham had a good driver in Walt Hansgen.
I have been unable at short notice to come up with a weight for the Chev engine. I cannot locate my copy of "Chevrolet Racing?" and the local Chevy dealership just went blank when I asked. Anybody know?

[Ray Bell]

The Chev engine, complete with flywheel etc, weighed in at around 620lbs IIRC...

Whatever it was, it was the same weight as an Austin C-Series engine complete to the same degree.

Agreed, the Jag engine was bigger than the Austin/Morris/Wolseley lump, but had an alloy head to temper things a little. Admittedly, a very large alloy head.

My comment about engine placement has some basis in what happened to Ross Bond's Healey 3000 when fitted with an alloy head. Horsepower was down by 10, Warwick Farm lap times came down by 2 seconds!

[David Birchall]

We are now so far off the original track of this thread its not even in sight anymore! As an aside Ray, why was that Healey slower with the alloy head?

On the original topic of the thread, I suppose its an international problem, not just an English one. The baby boomer generation has made it's money and in the throws of full blown conspicuous consumption is spending it; on historic racing cars, historic houses, historic aircaraft, historic boats,the only thing generally not historic is the the wife....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David Birchall
We are now so far off the original track of this thread its not even in sight anymore! As an aside Ray, why was that Healey slower with the alloy head?

The times came down, David...

It was faster! More appropriate to ask why the power was reduced, I guess...

Yeah, the wives are less than historic very often, and sometimes the historic wives are still at home and the historic drivers are making a new kind of history with a less historic model.

[Bruce Moxon]

Main difference I've noticed is that the cars are newer! I am NOT that old! NOT NOT NOT!


Bruce Moxon

[Viss1]

I think the most important agent of change is market value. Before the sports/race car market went through the roof in the mid-'80s, and old race car was pretty much just that - something to enjoy on the weekends, and perhaps sell for a moderate sum to a fellow racer.

[Paul Newby]

Originally posted by eldougo


Historic racing has in my opinion changed considerabliity over the years .An that is because
of MONEY ,i have noticed out here in OZ guys who have been unable to beat there friends
have bought FASTER cars costing bigs bucks to win a silver plated mug that cost $20 to buy.
They then began to run out of cars that would,t WIN so now they go to the states an get cars
that have never raced here in OZ , in classes we never had out here .It,s now spelt as follows
HI$TORIC RACING. :

Hear Hear!

I think we are talking about Sports 2000 racers and old Formula Atlantic / Formula B cars here.

It dismays me that we see March 73Bs and Chevrons that never raced in Australian Formula 2 when we should have more Elfins and Birranas that raced and won in period. Probably because they aren't competitive today. Talk about rewriting history.

Also if we have to have Ralt RT4s (quick but hardly spectacular) can't we have the ex-Bowe "Lucky Nuts" car or the ex-Hopwood Menage car instead of RT4s with unknown American SCCA history or similar.

I better not mention that I compete in Group S - production sports cars, then, should I

[David Birchall]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ray Bell
[B]

The times came down, David...

It was faster! More appropriate to ask why the power was reduced, I guess...

yeah sorry, Ray, reading your post in the cold light of day now I obviously misread it last night-Now you understand why we are 17 hours behind you! I would presume the Healey was faster because of lower weight and better handling? The power loss could only be caused by less efficient ports/valves couldn't it? Was it an original "Works" head or a repro?

[Ray Bell]

At that time, I'd say it was a works head... the only one in Australia for perhaps a decade too.

Yes, severe reduction of weight over the front wheels, and weight up high as well. As for the power, maybe the compression wasn't as high?

[Roger Clark]

If I may retuirn to the original question; one big change has been that increasing values mean that many real rarities no longer race. In 1971 Colin Crabbe raced a Mercedes W125 in a number of VSCC events. Whether the racing of such cars is a good thing is a matter of opinion.

My impression is that the VSCC in particular still run their events for the same reason they always did, for the enjoyment of spectator and competitor alike. They are still policed by pragmatic people to whom the spirit of the rule book is more important than the letter. It's only when the dreaded words "Official FIA Championship" appear that the lawyers arrive.

[Ray Bell]

Roger...

When Historic Racing really took off in Australia, in the mid-seventies, there were only classes up to 1960.

John Medley will surely confirm this... the proliferation of later classes has meant that the older cars, the cars of the fifties and forties and thirties which made up these meetings in their entirety, have almost been pushed off the circuits.

A real shame, as the Ralts and Marches are simply too modern to make it interesting as an Historic event...

[john medley]

When Historic Racing started in Australia, the newest cars were only a few years old: Tom Sulman won the original Tom Sulman Trophy race at Warwick Farm for " Vintage Thoroughbred & Historic Cars" in a Lotus Eleven less than a decade old. The youngest Historic cars today are similarly only a few years old, though probably older than Tom's Lotus was back then.Some would argue that all this is quite natural and appropriate ie that as cars reach a certain age they become "Historic". (and Ray was right: it wasnt until the very early 1980s in Australia that 1960 as a cut-off date was changed).This makes for a bigger pool of cars( and people).Race meetings get bigger and more packed with both events and competitors. More cars and people seek entry. Prices and costs go up. Replicas are not only entered but accepted. Historic cars dont have to have a history. Instead of something approximating originality, we get Formula Historic. Sedans and sports cars( and others) that never saw a race circuit let alone trod one somehow become historic racing cars...lots of them. Formula Historic thus becomes a silhouette formula (the supporters of which say to ' the purists', ' but without us there wouldnt be any historic racing' and cant understand why 'the purists ' just shake their heads and walk away).Prices,costs, motorhomes, and paid preparers escalate. Packed programmes and noisy selfpromoting subgroups force out the older original cars -- the very ones that started all this.In the bit of all this that I see most closely, the historic community in Australia(particularly in my view,NSW where it all really started) seems to show scant respect for the cars and their custodians that began it all.
It's a long time ago that I started to get bothered about racing at the same " Historic" meeting as cars that I went historic racing to get away from. What started out being a lot of fun , motor SPORT, and serious competition with and against old racing cars enveloped in history is no longer what it was. As my mate John Cummins ( a sort of cheery Godfather of Historic Racing) said the other day " at least we were there when it was great.. and it's our fault"

[Catalina Park]

I have a 1968 Formula Vee in the garage that is not able to run at a Historic meeting and a 1982 Formula Pacific can race at a Historic meeting.

I blame CAMS .......













..... But then again I blame CAMS for everything including the drought!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by john medley
.....(and Ray was right: it wasnt until the very early 1980s in Australia that 1960 as a cut-off date was changed)......

I believe Group M (1961-5) was either mooted or introduced in 1977, John... certainly it existed before 1980.

[john medley]

Ray, My apologies. You are right. Like that old line about former US President Gerald Ford that he couldnt walk and chew gum at the same time, my thinking and my typing got tanglefooted, and while I was typing I had in mind the tantrums we all threw about the Vintage Sports Car Club being coerced into running events for post 1960 cars that led to the formation of the Historic Sports and Racing Car Association in the early 80s.
Catalina, Your point is well made, and illustrates very nicely the whole Formula Historic strangeness -- that some historic cars are Historic ,some are not, some nonhistoric cars are Historic , some are not, some historic and some nonhistoric cars are Historic in only a few of their past forms, some are not... Phillip Brady's MGK3 could only get a CAMS logbook if it DIDNT run on the 16" wheels it ran prewar ( so Phillip didnt bother)/ CAMS refuses Jim Madden the right to correctly date his 1960 lowline Cooper Formula Junior/ Ian Ross only gets a logbook if he replaces the original pristine bodywork of his Elfin 600 Repco V8 with a fibreglass version/the list goes on ad nauseam...
This thread started out assessing British Historic racing. It has allowed others to air more widespread gripes, and a big worry is that all the gripes seem to apply pretty much across the board.

[eldougo]

Quote John Medley--- As my mate John Cummins ( a sort of cheery Godfather of Historic Racing) said the other day " at least we were there when it was great.. and it's our fault"

___________________

That,s a great Cummoism,now there a bloke i would love to see no this Forum,he would be
great to listen too,an some of his old days stories are magic.

[Ray Bell]

Buy his 504TI-powered 404 ute and he might be able to afford a computer...

John struck a chord there with the comment about 'cars that I went historic racing to get away from'... and of course there is the famous letter that Rob Rowe wrote to the HRR newsletter about that subject.

I might dig that out and copy it to this thread some time...

[eldougo]

PLEASEeeeeeeee DO RAY

[Ray Bell]

John would be more capable of doing that than I would at the moment, Doug...

I'm about 1204kms from my copies of the Newsletter at the moment.

And if you're interested, John, it's on the back page of the first newsletter with a glossy cover. Was that issue No 155?

[Gary C]

I've been going historic racing fo rthe last 10-12 years now. First time I saw some old F1 cars was at Brands on one of those 'get in for a £1, sponsored by the Daily Mail' days. Great fun, couldn't believe the cars I was watching being raced again. Started going to HSCC meetings regularly. There's no denying that there is much more money around these days, the preparation of the cars is second to none, I believe. Plus, there seems to be more cars every year!! I'm not complaining, I just like to see old racing cars being raced!! (which is probably what it's all about!!)