126 replies to this topic

[AUSTRIA]

Doing some deep research im my very special era I cannot find any detailed infos about the Chassis-numbers of the F2-Ferraris from 1949. The only numbers I know are the 011F (Squadra Argentina) and then the numbers of the 1950-models, beginning with GP1-49, ...

Can anybody of the specialists out there help me, or even give me any hint about sources to this topic?

Many thanks in advance.

E.T.

[Joe Fan]

Finding chassis info on F1 cars is next to impossible on the web as I have looked for chassis info on the Cooper T51's. You almost have to buy a book on Ferrari to find such information. Then there are tons of Ferrari books. Hopefully in your case, somebody here might be able to recommend the right book. At any rate, have you tried searches through http://www.northernlight.com? I found this link: http://www.symbolicm...Ferrari166.html which probably doesn't help you any.

[Don Capps]

Well, this is a task for the IMF & I don't mean the Int'l Monetary Fund...

Austria, finding telaio numbers for machines from this era is an exercise in frustration &/or Great Expense...

For 1949, I don't think I have a single telaio that I can vouch for with any certainty. Not much better for the GP cars either.

Of the 1950 telaio that were raced, here are some from the GP races. Note that many of the 166 machines were probably used in F2, but...

125-08C
125-10C
125-12C
125-C-01
125-C-02
125-C-04
166S-06C
166F2/50-GP1/49
166F2/50-GP2/49

Most of my F2 data from this period is in ruins, but sooner or later I'll try to pitch back in and sort it out.

[AUSTRIA]

Thanks Joe Fan and Don, but I had this already.

In 1948 there were several twoseaters, the 'spyder corsas' in Formula two, mostly entered by some privatiers like the Besana brothers or the Gruppo Inter of Troubetskoy and Sterzi. In the end of the season Ferrari brought a monoposto into formula two, probably one of the three GP-cars, fittet with the F2-motor. Then, the following year, Ferrari had a couple of monoposti in F2, looking quit similar to the F1-car, and these F2-cars from 1949 are the matter of my actual quest. Can anybody tell me some book or other sources, where detailed informations about this topic are included?

An additional question is - although more from 1948 - the Gruppo Inter. What do you know about it?

E.T.

[Marcor]

Here’s the results of Ferrari 166 F2-06C, chassis n°06C, engine n°06C. The car was originally sold to Franco Cortese in 1949.

2 June 1949 - GP di Roma (Caracalla) (F2), Franco Cortese, 3rd / n°12
12 June 1949 - GP di Bari (Lungamore) (F2), Franco Cortese, 2nd /
17 June 1949 - GP del Autodromo di Monza (F2), Franco Cortese, 5th / n°18
17 July 1949 - Coupe des petites cylindrées (Reims-Gueux) (F2), Franco Cortese, Withdraw / n°10
28 August 1949 - GP de Lausanne (F1), Franco Cortese, 4th / n°38
14 May 1950 - GP de Mons (F2), Franco Cortese, 3rd / n°8
11 June 1950 - GP di Roma (Caracalla) (F2), Franco Cortese, Retired / n°42
22 July 1950 - GP di Napoli (Posillipo) (F2), Franco Cortese, 1st /
20 August 1950 - German GP (Nurburgring) (F2), Franco Cortese, Withdraw / n°6
10 September 1950 - Trophée de l'Entre-Sambre-et-Meuse (Mettet) (F2), Franco Cortese, 6th (3rd second heath) / n°2
24 September 1950 - Circuit International (Périgueux) (F2), Franco Cortese, 3rd / n°16
15 October 1950 - Circuito della Garda (Salo) (F2), Franco Cortese, Withdraw /
9 July 1950 - GP di Bari (Lungomare) (F1), Franco Cortese, 5th / n°24
13 May 1951 - GP del Autodromo di Monza (F2), Franco Cortese, Retired / n°58
20 May 1951 - 500-aire di C Colomb (Genoa) (F2), Franco Cortese, Retired / n°26
3 June 1951 - Circuit du Lac (Aix-Les Bains) (F2), Franco Cortese, 4th Final (5th heath) / Ferrari 166 F2 06C n°30
10 June 1951 - GP di Roma (F2), Franco Cortese, Retired / n°32
24 June 1951 - GP di Napoli (Posillipo) (F2), Franco Cortese, 3rd / n°14
15 July 1951 - 2ème Grand Trophy de l'Entre-Sambre-et-Meuse (Mettet) (F2), Franco Cortese, 5th / n°34
12 August 1951 - GP de Suisse Orientale (Erlen) (F2), Franco Cortese, 7th / n°32
23 September 1951 - GP di Modena (F2), Franco Cortese, 4th / n°14
16 March 1952 - GP di Siracusa (F2), Franco Cortese, Retired / n°10
8 June 1952 - GP del Autodromo di Monza (F2), Ottorino Volonterio, Retired / n°56
2 August 1952 - Daily Mail International Trophy (Boreham) (F1 + F2), Franco Cortese, 16th (9th in F2) / n°11

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by AUSTRIA
Doing some deep research im my very special era I cannot find any detailed infos about the Chassis-numbers of the F2-Ferraris from 1949. .........

Hello Austria,
I looked in Paul Sheldon's "A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing, Volume 4 (1937-1949)" and he does not show any chassis numbers in his many stats. Maybe he issued them later at one of his addendums, which I don't have.

Another book "FERRARI", 6th Edition by Hans Tanner & Dog Nye is also not the book showing your chassis numbers.

Good luck in your search. Don't give up!

[AUSTRIA]

Marcor! Thanks for your contribution. Indeed very interesting, but it is a long, long story now. The Atlas BB will be the wrong place to discuss it. I will mail you next days, am just back from holidays and short in time at the moment.
But three questions 'ad hoc': Has this shown chassis, called '06C' and owned by Cortese as shown, developped from the first series of GP-cars and was first fitted with the 1500cc s/c GP-engine? Was it the same car, that first time appeared at Florenz as a F2-monoposto? And is it possibly the same car or at least the same frame, that Bardinon has rebuilt in the seventies as a F2 car, stamped 06C ? Do you or anybody else out there know something about this matter?

Very special, I know, but so interesting ....

E.T

[GT Action Photo]

The book "Gioachino Colombo Origins of the Ferrari Legend
Memories of the designer of the earlist Ferrari cars" may
be of some help.

ISBN 0 85429 624 7
First published 1985

With kind regards,
Gary Trobaugh

[fines]

I don’t know if it’s of any help, but I’ve developed my own theory about this messy subject although I have to admit that so far it’s pure speculation. But I noticed that whenever F1 and F2 races were run concurrently the number of Ferraris in each category usually shrunk. I concluded that this was probably because the same chassis were used for F1 and F2, with engines exchanged between the weekends. Here’s a tentative log I’ve compiled through to the end of 1950:

1948-07-18: Reims F2, chassis GP-02C, car Ferrari 166F2, #26 Raymond Sommer, 1st
1948-09-05: Torino F1, GP-02C, Ferrari 125GP, #28 Raymond Sommer, 3rd
1948-09-05: Torino F1, GP-04C, Ferrari 125GP, #36 Giuseppe Farina, accident
1948-09-05: Torino F1, GP-06C, Ferrari 125GP, #68 Prince Bira, transmission
1948-09-19: Naples F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, Raymond Sommer, retired
1948-09-26: Firenze F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, Raymond Sommer, 1st
1948-10-17: Monza F1, GP-02C, Ferrari 125GP, #14 Raymond Sommer, withdrawn
1948-10-17: Monza F1, GP-04C, Ferrari 125GP, #12 Giuseppe Farina, transmission
1948-10-24: Garda FL, GP-04C, Ferrari 125GP, #6 Giuseppe Farina, 1st
1948-10-31: Pedralbes F1, GP-02C, Ferrari 125GP, #58 José Pola/? Gonzalez, engine
1948-10-31: Pedralbes F1, GP-04C, Ferrari 125GP, #52 Giuseppe Farina, transmission
1948-10-31: Pedralbes F1, GP-06C, Ferrari 125GP, #14 Prince Bira, transmission

1949-01-29: Buenos Aires FL, GP-04C, Ferrari 166C, Giuseppe Farina, ?
1949-02-06: Buenos Aires FL, GP-04C, Ferrari 166C, Giuseppe Farina, brakes
1949-02-13: Rosario FL, GP-04C, Ferrari 166C, Giuseppe Farina, 1st
1949-02-27: Mar del Plata FL, GP-04C, Ferrari 166C, Giuseppe Farina, ?
1949-03-20: Interlagos FL, GP-04C, Ferrari 166C, Giuseppe Farina, retired
1949-03-27: Gavea FL, GP-04C, Ferrari 166C, Giuseppe Farina, 2nd
1949-04-03: San Remo F1, GP-02C (or GP-06C), Ferrari 166F2, #42 Felice Bonetto, 5th
1949-04-03: San Remo F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, #24 Raymond Sommer, overheated
1949-04-03: San Remo F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #14 Peter Whitehead, retired
1949-04-28: Jersey F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #10 Peter Whitehead, 7th
1949-05-14: Silverstone F1, GP-02C, Thin Wall Mk 1, #4 Raymond Mays/Ken Richardson, accident
1949-05-14: Silverstone F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #21 Peter Whitehead/Dudley Folland, 8th
1949-05-22: Marseilles F1, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #14 Felice Bonetto, 4th
1949-05-22: Marseilles F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, #12 Raymond Sommer, withdrawn
1949-05-22: Brussells F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #2 Franco Cortese, retired
1949-05-22: Brussells F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, #1 Luigi Villoresi, 1st
1949-06-02: Rome F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #10 Felice Bonetto, 6th
1949-06-02: Rome F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #12 Franco Cortese, 3rd
1949-06-02: Rome F2, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, #8 Piero Taruffi, 2nd
1949-06-02: Rome F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, #6 Luigi Villoresi, 1st
1949-06-12: Remparts F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #26 Bruno Sterzi, retired
1949-06-12: Bari F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, Felice Bonetto, 3rd
1949-06-12: Bari F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, Franco Cortese, 2nd
1949-06-12: Bari F2, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, Alberto Ascari, 1st
1949-06-12: Bari F2, GP-10C, Ferrari 166F2, Chico Landi/Luigi Villoresi, 4th
1949-06-12: Bari F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, Luigi Villoresi, retired
1949-06-19: Spa F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, #4 Alberto Ascari, 3rd
1949-06-19: Spa F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #6 Peter Whitehead, 4th
1949-06-19: Spa F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, #2 Luigi Villoresi, 2nd
1949-06-21: Aix-les-Bains F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #40 Bruno Sterzi, transmission
1949-06-26: Monza F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #20 Bruno Sterzi, DNS withdrawn
1949-06-26: Monza F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #34 Juan Manuel Fangio, 1st
1949-06-26: Monza F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #38 Felice Bonetto, 2nd
1949-06-26: Monza F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #18 Franco Cortese, 5th
1949-06-26: Monza F2, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, #12 Alberto Ascari, 3rd
1949-06-26: Monza F2, GP-10C, Ferrari 166F2, #14 Chico Landi, 4th
1949-06-26: Monza F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, #30 Luigi Villoresi, retired
1949-07-03: Berne F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, #30 Alberto Ascari, 1st
1949-07-03: Berne F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #36 Peter Whitehead, 9th
1949-07-03: Berne F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, #34 Luigi Villoresi, 2nd
1949-07-10: Garda F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #20 Bruno Sterzi, accident
1949-07-10: Garda F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #26 Felice Bonetto, accident
1949-07-10: Garda F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #6 Mario Tadini, 2nd
1949-07-10: Garda F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, #16 Luigi Villoresi, 1st
1949-07-17: Reims F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #8 Juan Manuel Fangio, gearbox
1949-07-17: Reims F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #18 Froilan Gonzalez, retired
1949-07-17: Reims F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #10 Franco Cortese, DNS withdrawn
1949-07-17: Reims F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #14 Mario Tadini, 2nd
1949-07-17: Reims F2, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, #16 Alberto Ascari, 1st
1949-07-17: Reims F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #24 Peter Whitehead, 3rd
1949-07-17: Reims F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, #20 Luigi Villoresi, brakes
1949-07-31: Zandvoort F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, #14 Alberto Ascari, accident
1949-07-31: Zandvoort F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #18 Peter Whitehead, DNS magneto
1949-07-31: Zandvoort F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, #1 Luigi Villoresi, 1st
1949-08-20: Silverstone F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, #8 Alberto Ascari, 1st
1949-08-20: Silverstone F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #9 Peter Whitehead, DNS valve
1949-08-20: Silverstone F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, #27 Luigi Villoresi, 3rd
1949-08-28: Lausanne F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #12 Felice Bonetto, 5th
1949-08-28: Lausanne F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #14 Mario Tadini, retired
1949-08-28: Lausanne F1, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #38 Franco Cortese, 4th
1949-08-28: Lausanne F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, #14 Alberto Ascari, 2nd
1949-08-28: Lausanne F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #22 Peter Whitehead, 10th
1949-08-28: Lausanne F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, #12 Luigi Villoresi, 6th
1949-09-11: Monza F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, #40 Raymond Sommer, 5th
1949-09-11: Monza F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #46 Peter Whitehead, magneto
1949-09-11: Monza F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, #16 Felice Bonetto, overheated
1949-09-11: Monza F1, C-01, Ferrari 125F1, #8 Alberto Ascari, 1st
1949-09-11: Monza F1, C-02, Ferrari 125F1, #34 Luigi Villoresi, gear lever
1949-09-25: Brno F1, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, Franco Cortese, 3rd
1949-09-25: Brno F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, Peter Whitehead, 1st
1949-10-09: Montlhéry F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #9 Peter Whitehead, accident
1949-12-18: Buenos Aires FL, GP-02C, Ferrari 166C, Benedicto Campos, 4th
1949-12-18: Buenos Aires FL, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, Peter Whitehead, 10th
1949-12-18: Buenos Aires FL, C-01, Ferrari 166C, Alberto Ascari, 1st
1949-12-18: Buenos Aires FL, C-02, Ferrari 166C, Luigi Villoresi, 3rd
1949-12-18: Buenos Aires FL, C-03, Ferrari 166C, #16 Juan Manuel Fangio, 2nd

1950-01-08: Buenos Aires FL, GP-02C, Ferrari 166C, Juan Manuel Fangio, 4th
1950-01-08: Buenos Aires FL, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, Peter Whitehead, ?
1950-01-08: Buenos Aires FL, C-01, Ferrari 166C, Alberto Ascari, damage
1950-01-08: Buenos Aires FL, C-02, Ferrari 166C, Luigi Villoresi, 1st
1950-01-08: Buenos Aires FL, C-03, Ferrari 166C, Dorino Serafini, 2nd
1950-01-15: Mar del Plata FL, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, Peter Whitehead, ?
1950-01-15: Mar del Plata FL, C-01, Ferrari 166C, Alberto Ascari, 1st
1950-01-15: Mar del Plata FL, C-02, Ferrari 166C, Luigi Villoresi, accident
1950-01-15: Mar del Plata FL, C-03, Ferrari 166C, Juan Manuel Fangio, accident
1950-01-22: Rosario FL, GP-02C, Ferrari 166C, Benedicto Campos, 2nd
1950-01-22: Rosario FL, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, Peter Whitehead, ?
1950-01-22: Rosario FL, C-01, Ferrari 166C, Alberto Ascari, gear lever
1950-01-22: Rosario FL, C-02, Ferrari 166C, Luigi Villoresi, 1st
1950-01-22: Rosario FL, C-03, Ferrari 166C, Juan Manuel Fangio, accident
1950-03-19: Marseilles F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #2 Juan Manuel Fangio, 3rd
1950-03-19: Marseilles F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #12 Giovanni Bracco, withdrawn
1950-03-19: Marseilles F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #14 Roberto Vallone, retired
1950-03-19: Marseilles F2, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, #6 Raymond Sommer, 4th
1950-03-19: Marseilles F2, C-01, Ferrari 166F2, #10 Alberto Ascari, 2nd
1950-03-19: Marseilles F2, C-02, Ferrari 166F2, #8 Luigi Villoresi, 1st
1950-04-10: Pau F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, #6 Raymond Sommer, 4th
1950-04-10: Pau F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, #2 Luigi Villoresi, 2nd
1950-04-10: Pau F1, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #4 Alberto Ascari, transmission
1950-04-10: Goodwood F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #24 Peter Whitehead, DNS
1950-04-16: San Remo F1, GP-04C, Ferrari 125F1, Giovanni Bracco, accident
1950-04-16: San Remo F1, GP-06C, Ferrari 125F1, Roberto Vallone, 4th
1950-04-16: San Remo F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, Raymond Sommer, fuel pump
1950-04-16: San Remo F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, Peter Whitehead, overheating
1950-04-16: San Remo F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, Dorino Serafini, oil pressure
1950-04-16: San Remo F1, C-01, Ferrari 125F1, Alberto Ascari, accident
1950-04-16: San Remo F1, C-02, Ferrari 125F1, Luigi Villoresi, 2nd
1950-05-07: Modena F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #16 Juan Manuel Fangio, engine
1950-05-07: Modena F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #20 Mario Tadini, 2nd
1950-05-07: Modena F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, #18 Dorino Serafini, overheating
1950-05-07: Modena F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #14 Alberto Ascari, 1st
1950-05-07: Roubaix F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #12 Giovanni Bracco, engine
1950-05-07: Roubaix F2, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, #10 Raymond Sommer, 1st
1950-05-07: Erlen F2, GP-10C, Ferrari 166F2, #28 Roberto Vallone, 2nd
1950-05-07: Erlen F2, C-02, Ferrari 166F2, #26 Luigi Villoresi, 1st
1950-05-14: Mons F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, Franco Cortese, 3rd
1950-05-14: Mons F2, GP-10C, Ferrari 166F2, Roberto Vallone, retired
1950-05-14: Mons F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, Luigi Villoresi, 2nd
1950-05-14: Mons F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, Alberto Ascari, 1st
1950-05-14: Medoc F2, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, #12 Raymond Sommer, 3rd
1950-05-21: Monaco F1, GP-08C, Ferrari 125F1, #42 Raymond Sommer, 4th
1950-05-21: Monaco F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #28 Peter Whitehead, DNS engine
1950-05-21: Monaco F1, C-01, Ferrari 125F1, #40 Alberto Ascari, 2nd
1950-05-21: Monaco F1, C-02, Ferrari 125F1, #38 Luigi Villoresi, transmission
1950-05-28: Monza F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #16 Juan Manuel Fangio, overheating
1950-05-28: Monza F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #10 Giovanni Bracco, DNS engine
1950-05-28: Monza F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #12 Mario Tadini, 4th
1950-05-28: Monza F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, #6 Dorino Serafini, 3rd
1950-05-28: Monza F2, C-01, Ferrari 166F2/50, #4 Alberto Ascari, 2nd
1950-05-28: Monza F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2, #8 Luigi Villoresi, 1st
1950-05-28: Aix-les-Bains F2, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, #16 Raymond Sommer, 1st
1950-05-28: Aix-les-Bains F2, GP-10C, Ferrari 166F2, #18 Roberto Vallone, ignition
1950-06-04: Berne F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #18 Giovanni Bracco, engine
1950-06-04: Berne F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, #22 Roberto Vallone, engine
1950-06-04: Berne F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #20 Raymond Sommer, 1st
1950-06-04: Berne F1, C-01, Ferrari 125F1, #18 Alberto Ascari, oil line
1950-06-04: Berne F1, C-04, Ferrari 125F1, #22 Luigi Villoresi, transmission
1950-06-04: Berne F1, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #20 Raymond Sommer, suspension
1950-06-11: Remparts F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #12 Froilan Gonzalez, 3rd
1950-06-11: Remparts F2, GP-08C, Ferrari 166F2, #16 Raymond Sommer, 5th
1950-06-11: Remparts F2, GP-12C, Ferrari 166F2, #18 Dorino Serafini, gearbox
1950-06-11: Rome F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, Franco Cortese, retired
1950-06-11: Rome F2, GP-10C, Ferrari 166F2, Roberto Vallone, 3rd
1950-06-11: Rome F2, C-02, Ferrari 166F2, Luigi Villoresi, 2nd
1950-06-11: Rome F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, Alberto Ascari, 1st
1950-06-18: Spa F1, C-01, Ferrari 275F1, #4 Alberto Ascari, 5th
1950-06-18: Spa F1, C-02, Ferrari 125F1, #2 Luigi Villoresi, 6th
1950-07-02: Reims F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #32 Roberto Mieres, DNS withdrawn
1950-07-02: Reims F2, GP-02C, Ferrari 166F2, #32 Froilan Gonzalez, engine
1950-07-02: Reims F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #28 Alberto Ascari, 1st
1950-07-02: Reims F2, GP2-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #26 Luigi Villoresi, suspension
1950-07-02: Reims F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #14 Peter Whitehead, 3rd
1950-07-02: Reims F1, C-01, Ferrari 275F1, #10 Alberto Ascari, DNS withdrawn
1950-07-02: Reims F1, C-01, Ferrari 275F1, #10 Luigi Villoresi, DNS withdrawn
1950-07-09: Bari F1, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #24 Franco Cortese, 5th
1950-07-09: Bari F1, GP-12C, Ferrari 125F1, #38 Dorino Serafini, 7th
1950-07-09: Bari F1, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #12 Alberto Ascari, transmission
1950-07-09: Bari F1, GP2-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #30 Luigi Villoresi/Alberto Ascari, transmission
1950-07-13: Jersey F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #10 Peter Whitehead, 1st
1950-07-16: Albi F1, C-01, Ferrari 275F1, #16 Luigi Villoresi, ignition
1950-07-16: Albi F1, C-02, Ferrari 125F1, #18 Alberto Ascari, retired
1950-07-23: Naples F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #34 Franco Cortese, 1st
1950-07-23: Zandvoort F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #10 Peter Whitehead, 4th
1950-07-23: Zandvoort F1, C-02, Ferrari 125F1, #6 Luigi Villoresi, 2nd
1950-07-23: Zandvoort F1, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #8 Alberto Ascari, 3rd
1950-07-30: Geneva F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #50 Mario Tadini, engine
1950-07-30: Geneva F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #42 Luigi Villoresi, transmission
1950-07-30: Geneva F2, GP2-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #40 Dorino Serafini, 3rd
1950-07-30: Geneva F1, C-01, Ferrari 275F1, #42 Luigi Villoresi, accident
1950-07-30: Geneva F1, C-04, Ferrari 340F1, #40 Alberto Ascari, engine
1950-08-12: Dundrod F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #14 Peter Whitehead, 1st
1950-08-20: Nürburgring F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #8 Giovanni Bracco, retired
1950-08-20: Nürburgring F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #2 Alberto Ascari, 1st
1950-08-20: Nürburgring F2, GP2-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, #4 Dorino Serafini, gearbox
1950-08-26: Silverstone F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #17 Peter Whitehead, 3rd
1950-08-26: Silverstone F1, C-02, Ferrari 125F1, #16 Alberto Ascari, DNS accident
1950-09-03: Monza F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #8 Peter Whitehead, 7th
1950-09-03: Monza F1, GP1-49, Ferrari 375F1, #16 Alberto Ascari, engine
1950-09-03: Monza F1, GP2-49, Ferrari 375F1, #48 Dorino Serafini/Alberto Ascari, 2nd
1950-09-10: Mettet F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #2 Franco Cortese, 6th
1950-09-10: Mettet F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, Alberto Ascari, transmission
1950-09-10: Mettet F2, GP2-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, Dorino Serafini, transmission
1950-09-17: Perigueux F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, #16 Ferdinando Righetti, 4th
1950-09-17: Perigueux F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, #14 Franco Cortese, 5th
1950-09-30: Goodwood F1, GP-10C, Ferrari 125F1, #8 Peter Whitehead, 13th
1950-10-15: Garda F2, GP-04C, Ferrari 166F2, Giovanni Bracco, retired
1950-10-15: Garda F2, GP-06C, Ferrari 166F2, Franco Cortese, DNS withdrawn
1950-10-15: Garda F2, GP1-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, Alberto Ascari, 1st
1950-10-15: Garda F2, GP2-49, Ferrari 166F2/50, Dorino Serafini, 2nd
1950-10-29: Pedralbes F1, C-02, Ferrari 125F1, #16 Luigi Chinetti, ignition
1950-10-29: Pedralbes F1, GP1-49, Ferrari 375F1, #2 Alberto Ascari, 1st
1950-10-29: Pedralbes F1, GP2-49, Ferrari 375F1, #6 Dorino Serafini, 2nd
1950-10-29: Pedralbes F1, GP3-50, Ferrari 212F1, #4 Piero Taruffi, 3rd
1950-11-12: Paraná FL, GP-02C, Ferrari 166C, Froilan Gonzalez, 2nd
1950-11-12: Paraná FL, C-03, Ferrari 166C, Juan Manuel Fangio, 1st
1950-12-18: Santiago FL, GP-02C, Ferrari 166C, Froilan Gonzalez, 2nd
1950-12-18: Santiago FL, C-03, Ferrari 166C, Juan Manuel Fangio, 1st

I am well aware that there are a lot of „problem areas" in this record, so treat it rather as a base for further discussions.

By the way, Marcor’s record is incomplete because that car was jointly owned by Franco Cortese and Mario Tadini, as explicitly mentioned in the German magazine „Das Auto", Nr. 12/1950, p 402. The chassis number 011 for the Argentine car could possibly be a confusion, the Roman figure for two being II, but then again in 1967 Ferrari gave odd numbers to their F2 cars and even numbers to the F1 machines, so take your pick...
[p][Edited by fines on 10-01-2000]

[Felix Muelas]

Michael

Impressive stuff. Thanks !

Originally posted by fines
1948-10-31: Pedralbes F1, GP-02C, Ferrari 125GP, #58 José Pola/? Gonzalez, engine

I agree with the car, the number, and basically the driver, although his full name (and the one we know him by) is José Gonzalez Pola.
That might be the reason, by the way, for some sources to have "suggested" that Gonzalez (Froilán) might have been the driver of the car number 58 in the Penya Rhin Grand Prix. But Pablo Gimeno Valledor, the extremelly competent Spanish researcher, author of The International Penya Rhin Grand Prix (that probably Hans will reccomend too) leaves the question fully answered.

I will lose some sleep over your list...
Thanks again !

Felix Muelas

[fines]

Joe Fan, this is an excellent site you found! I recommend Don strongly to bookmark www.symbolicmotors.com! There's a wonderful collection of antique racers with full backgrounds, race records and lots of stunning pictures to be found. Really impressive!
[p][Edited by fines on 10-02-2000]

[fines]

Thanks, Felix!

I always thought that Paul Sheldon was wrong to assume Froilan Gonzalez as a relief driver in this race. Now this issue should be settled for good!

[Felix Muelas]

And hopefully a picture of our own Nuvolari-like Mr Pola will hurt nobody...

Felix

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

Felix: your scanning system is working great, tell us all the: "HOW to DO's!" and "fines", tell me really...How long did it take you to type all that info? if you are now, a junior member I vote you should be at least a "member" WOW!

[Hans Etzrodt]

Yes Felix, the Spanish books!

I obtained the first one, which was published in 1997 with Spanish and English text. The International Penya Rhin Grand Prix by Pablo Gimeno Valledor, giving all the details about the Club's history and the races from 1921 till 1954. A beautiful book, which makes my heart bounce in joy every time I leaf through it.

An even more beautiful book was given to me by Maria, a charming Spanish woman who used to live in my building. One day last year she came to my office, telling me that she had to leave for Spain for a short while to visit her sick brother. When asked which place she was heading for, she replied: "San Sebastian." I thought I did not hear right, since, unknown to her, this was the place where all the big Spanish races had taken place in the Twenties and Thirties. Because she had already a taxi waiting for her, I quickly explained and pleaded with her to find me a book about the great races in San Sebastin. I told her, I could not find a book anywhere in the world, giving her a quickly written note on a business card.

Guess what, one day about two months later, she walked into my office and handed me a large, heavy book and said smiling: "This is a present for you, Hans." I was totally surprised and absolutely overwhelmed. After years of search about the ‘neglected’ Spanish races at the Lasarte Circuit south of San Sebastian, I held in my hands one of the most beautiful books, I had ever seen, a work of love and art. And all about the Lasarte Circuit races. It was unbelievable; I thought I was dreaming. In the front was a dedication from the author, Angel Alberdin. I off course paid Maria, a pittance though. The book had just been published in 1998. Circuito de Lasarte Memorias de una pasion is solely in Spanish and written in a rich flowery language, I was told and covers the years 1923 to 1935. My Spanish is even worse than my Italian or French but I can recommend it for the pictures alone and all the well-researched statistics and circuit maps. This is a book I highly urge you folks to get, but I don’t know where it can be obtained. Do you have any suggestions, Felix?

How about an English translation by you, Felix, so the rest of the non-Spanish world can enjoy it even more?

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

Felex I know this is a little "Off Topic" do you know anything about the 1923 Spanish GP at Sitges-Terramar, this subject was my first thread, and I'm still researching the project...Anyone?.... any interesting articles / photos / anything! it's amazing that so little about this Great Track has been written!(in English) even Brooklands has NOTHING on this track, what happened? The First Spanish GP and First purpose-built Spanish GP circuit... guess what? it's still standing! Who has any information on the circuit and all the races, why did the track go bankrupt?

"Autodromo Nacional S.A."

Owner: Edgard de Morawitz
Club: Penya Rhin
Architect: Jaume Mestres
Josep Maria Martino

...Peter

[Hans Etzrodt]

I read somewhere that the Sitges Grand Prix on 28 October 1923 never carried national status. The first race for grand prix cars carrying the title Spanish Grand Prix took place on 31 July 1927. This is out of my own statistics and will be one of the items I try to clear up during my December research trip in wintry Europe.

Felix, any books out there about the Spanish Grand Prix? Regardless, Felix, please take over...

[AUSTRIA]

Hallo Michael

Very interesting list.

Quote: I am well aware that there are a lot of „problem areas" in this record, so treat it rather as a base for further discussions.

Well, let's begin.

1948-07-18: Reims F2, chassis GP-02C, car Ferrari 166F2, #26 Raymond Sommer, 1st

Can you tell me more about this strange first line?

I will check your list and then for sure will post some more questions today or tomorrow. Maybe also MichaelM will pop up.

E.T.

Felix, great picture of Pola, thanks!

[Michael M]

Hello Fines, good morning Austria.
Of course I pop up on this topic, no question, but contrary to you guys I use the night for sleep. For Fines' info, Austria and myself are working jointly on a project covering Ferrari 1947-1950 since a couple of months already, and this list is rather helpful. However, some questions arise immediately, others most probably later after careful study. E.g., Bira at Torino 1948, he raced the prototype, but c/n in Fines' list is 06C. Why not 02C which was the lowest - and consequently earliest? - number of this series. Pola raced the prototype at Penya Rhin, there the c/n is shown (correctly?) as 02C.

[Ray Bell]

What surprises me more is that Austria didn't comment on the photo of the Lago...

[Barry Lake]

If anyone learns where we can buy these two books, I would like a copy of each. Felix, can you help?

[fines]

WOW!

It seems I opened quite a can of worms! But if so, then fine: I always thought this subject underexposed in terms of publications. And while I'm at it, what about the Alfetta chassis numbers? Someone out there with an interest?

Before I get back with a little info on Sitges and some comment on AUSTRIA's and Michael M's questions, just a few notes:

MOTORSPORT RESORT (may I call you MSR for short ;)), it actually cost me the best part of my Sunday afternoon, even if I had most of it already in an Excel file. Near the end I was really thinking "I must be a stupid person..."

Hans, of course I'm also interested in these books. Since my Spanish is also very much in its infancy let's hope our Iberian friends Felix and MSR will provide us with a translation!?

And Felix, did you notice that Pola's feet are both well off the ground? Great picture, really! Wonder how many 8W experts would've recognised anything! By the way, that is Louis Rosier in the original T26C in the background, on his way to a fourth place finish, four laps down...

[AUSTRIA]

fines, feel free to contact me via @mail. I'd sent you a mail, but unfortunately you have inactivated that feature.

E.T.

[Don Capps]

One of my pet peeves is the fact that there is a mother lode of information out there in languages other than English that is often overlooked. Like Hans, my language skills aren't what they should be. Given some time and some contextual material, I manage to read and make sense out of French and Spanish, do much better in Italian (my "third" language as a kid), but my past mastery of German is gone from sheer lack of use -- although I still sort it out pretty well when I just read it and don't worry about it... For someone who spoke German as a child and used it into his teens, the latter is distressing, but true. And my Russian is next to useless. Alas, to my horror, I have degenerated to being almost monolingual...

Anyhow, before I digressed, the value of this Forun is that materials from other languages are being brought to the attention of those in the English-centric world with the result hopefully being a broadening of horizons for all concerned. Like it or not, English is -- as one my professors used to lament (in German, French, Italian, Spanish, Czech, Polish, Russian, and his native Hungarian) -- the New Latin of Academia.*

The collaborative efforts which are becoming the hallmark of this Forum make me very proud that we are showing how the interchange of information, ideas, concepts, and thoughts is supposed to work.

* English was not his strongest language so that is why the other languages were used in class quite often -- needless to say it was an experience! I was one of his grad assistants after I graduated and he was a one-man Tower of Babbel...

[Felix Muelas]

Spanish Themes :

Unfortunately, Hans, I think you are, at present, the only one of us who owns a copy of the Lasarte book !
You might remember that back in January or so we were talking about the Rabassada races, and after some investigation I was led to believe, by the Automobile Club of Catalunya, that the said information might be available in a publication that they had somehow cooperated with, a book called "The History of Automobile Racing in Catalunya", by another very respected, although moody, spanish historian writer, called Javier del Arco. You might have heard about him.
Problem with that book is that it is written in Catalonian (if Jarama is reading this and understands that the above word is incorrect -and he is from Catalunya- please feel free to correct me) so I offered you that, as soon as I got my hands on a copy, you would have the results.
Question is that my bookseller in Spain -specifically in Catalunya- did not have any copies left, as he didn’t either of your beloved Lasarte book.
After months of waiting, and having been told of the immediate release of a book by the same writer about the Montjuich track, I have placed an order for second-hand copies (valued at around 3 times the original price) that maybe could be obtained in a fair that is going to take place soon in Barcelona.
I’ll keep you posted about developments, but do not think I forgot ! :-)

As for Barry’s question, I do think that copies of The Penya Rhin book (remember, it has a very "funny" translation into English -will Hans agree on this?) could be available. There’s two ways that we can do that, either you get in contact with these people through their web page
http://www.lawebdelmotor.com or either I will be delighted to speak with them over the phone and check it for you.

As for languages and sources, I have to agree on what Don says, although I look at it from the opposite side of the barrier!
I mean, the major problem from this side of the world is that, surprisingly enough, there's very little people that can actually read English in this country! I was lucky enough to have an English wife who had the patience to teach me, make me see movies and correct me everyday, so that a high percentage of the sources that I use nowadays are in English. But being born in Paris and spending there the first years of my life taught me French too (I still choose today to read the instructions of the machines in French, for instance) whilst I learnt the Italian through a painfully long exercise. I am a complete dumb in German, but Bianca speaks it, so she used to translate it for me.

Taking a look at the books in Spanish that surround me I notice how awkward they are. In the sixties we used to have the motor racing books published in France and UK translated into Spanish, and that´s how I got some "jewels" then. As soon as the seventies started, and until today, only very few books have been published here (but we have had access to original editions of Argentine books, for instance) and it’s only logical: we do not have a single "Spanish" magazine devoted to Grand Prix Racing (only a translation of the, otherwise stupid and uninteresting F1Racing magazine) let alone covering past times.
On the seventies and early eighties, that journalist-writer that I had mentioned above, Javier del Arco, started a couple of projects (magazines) that were of excellent quality, and allowed young fans to become used to pre-war heroes. But it seems that it was too difficult to keep any of those projects alive, and he went bankrupt a couple of times.
As for myself, I have come to the conclusion that History of Grand Prix racing and later Formula 1 are not really that interest a lot my fellow Spaniards. I have discussed this subject with some journalists, both in Spain and in Portugal, and I think the statement is pretty close to reality.

It seems that Angel Alberdin, a resurrected Javier del Arco and Pablo Gimeno Valledor might be leading a new trend as far as Spanish investigation is concerned. Let's hope so, and let's also hope that they understand that the only way forward is the one followed by Pablo: enclose an English translation!

I am sure I leaving something behind, but it’s now my 5 months old son bath’s time, hence I will come back later.

Un abrazo,

Felix

[fines]

AUSTRIA, Paul Sheldon gives Sommer’s car as 166GP as opposed to Righetti’s 166SC. That could still be a mistake, but then you look at his speed: He clocked three minutes dead in practice and in the race went half a second quicker still, winning at 96.1 mph with no pressure at all and even a light shower of rain to deal with. Compare that to Ascari’s 1949 average of 94.8 mph and Fangio’s best lap time of 2’56.2" and you will see that he could’ve impossibly done that in a Spyder Corsa!

Michael M, in the absence of almost any reliable information I decided to let the drivers stick to „their" cars even if factory drivers were likely to interchange between different chassis. There is, however, one additional clue: the German magazine „Das Auto" (1948, Nr. 10, p 12) reports of the Italian GP: „Ferrari gave the fast and proven prototype to Raymond Sommer and recruited drivers as good as Farina and Prince Bira for the remaining two cars". That piece of information also ties in with Sheldon’s view.

OT Sitges-Terramar

Sitges is situated, as both Felix and MSR probably know, in the vicinity of Barcelona. In 1923 the first permanent racing circuit of Spain was built there, a 2 km (1.25 mi) oval with steep banking. And with steep banking I mean really steep! There’s a picture in Adriano Cimarosti’s Autorennen (Hallwag, Bern, Switzerland, 1986) which makes you think they simply dug that track into the countryside, with the inside line some 30 feet (!) „underground" and the banking rising progressively to near-vertical at the outer edge, 60 feet from the inner edge in a horizontal straightline - Stunning! Remember that at that time even the steepest board tracks in the US of A did not exceed 35 degree banking (Beverly Hills, Ca. and Kansas City, Mo., both also of 1.25 mi) with the 50 degree Miami-Fulford board track still some two and a half years from being built.

Similarly to Fulford, there were only two meetings held at the Sitges track, the opening ceremony on Oct 28 (graced by HRH King Alfonso XIII, well known for his fondness for cars), and one a week later. The first race was actually the 2nd Spanish GP, the first having taken place ten years earlier at Guadarrama, a Touring Car race won by Carlo de Salamanca at the wheel of a Rolls-Royce (!) from the Marquis de Aulencia (de Dietrich) and E. Platford in another Rolls-Royce. At Sitges rain forced the event to be delayed and then shortened from 300 laps to 200 but still an interesting race ensued which was finally won by Albert Divo for Sunbeam from Count Zborowski with one of the Millers that had made the trip to the Italian GP the preceding month. It was a shame that Jimmy Murphy could not be persuaded to stay on for this would’ve been the perfect venue for this excellent board track driver. Even so Miller nearly won, only a late tire change preventing Zborowski from taking the checker first.

On Nov 1 a Cyclecar race was scheduled for 200 laps but rained off after only 70 laps run. It was decided to restart on the morning of Nov 4 and run to the conclusion with Robert Benoist (Salmson) winning overall and André Lombard taking the 750cc class in another Salmson. After that a 300 lap Voiturette race took place which ended in a staged finish for US „returnee" Dario Resta from Divo, both in Talbots.

And that was that! After only four races in the space of 8 days the track closed down. Cimarosti gives the reason thus: „(They) discovered that the construction of the banking was grossly miscalculated, the radii were much too severe." Thus the closure was a shame but understandable if that was true, and the recorded speeds of 96 (GP), 85 (Voiturette), 76 (1100cc) and 67 mph (750cc) support this theory (Tommy Milton averaged 122.8 mph at Kansas City in 1924).

PS I'm sorry, AUSTRIA, for inadvertently hiding my e-mail address, you will now find it in the header of my posts!

[Felix Muelas]

Michael

I am delighted that you very well described what the activity on Sitges was. Excellent recall.

As for the reasons for the closure, and accepting the fact that the banking was way out of line, it seems to me that the spanish sources tend to agree that funds were -at least, if not mainly- responsible for the closure. So serious must have been the bankrupcy that when on the fifties the track tried to be re-used for speed record purposes, the impossibility came via a legal issue over the ownership, apparently having been taken over by creditors.

I had a friend visiting the track a couple of months ago, and I might have a picture where, God knows why, he insisted on being the main character, with the banking behind. Anyway...

Thanks once again.

Felix Muelas

(yes, I finally learnt how to post smilies too...)

[Michael M]

Fines, there was no big technical difference between the 166SC and the 166F2, engine power – at least for the SF machines – was identical, and in F2 events the Spyder Corsas raced without fenders and lamps. So in my opinion the potential lap times differed not that much. And that Raymond Sommer was an excellent driver I think is well known to all of us. One thing is a fact: the first appearance of a Ferrari monoposto was in September 1948 at Torino, and for sure not already in July.

Although Sheldon’s books of course are very valuable and informative is seems to be a fact that they contain a lot of mistakes, especially concerning chassis numbers. To fix chassis numbers by your own decision due to lack of any other reliable information only creates confusion, and in my eyes should be avoided. If such numbers are not known, then this should be accepted as a fact.

Most probably the information in “Das Auto” is incorrect. The prototype had a radiator grill similar to that of some of the SC’s, but the next 2 cars had additional triangular cooling vents on both sides of the main grille. There are photos showing car with race number 68 (Bira) without these cooling vents, and other photos with # 28 (Sommer) showing clearly these vents. Also the car concerted to F2 for Sommer at Firenze 3 weeks later had the same bodywork.

[jarama]

Continuing with the spanish themes:

You're right, Félix, the book entittled "Histôria de l'automobilisme a Catalunya" is written in Catalonian. Is a very complete and detailed work.

Let me know if you're coming to the next "AutoRetro". We can have a beer and talk about... car racing, i.e.?. We can go to the Sitges-Terramar track and take a few pictures to post here.

About the races at Sitges-Terramar:

10-28-1923
Trofeu Inauguració del Autòdrom Nacional de Sitges
Penya Rhin
200 laps x 2 km., 400 km.
1st) Albert Divo, Sunbeam, 2h.48'08"5 @ 142'8 kmh.
2nd) Count Zborowsky, Miller, 2h.48'58"5
3rd) Alfonso Carreras, Elizalde, 3h.26'55"
4th) García, Diatto, 3h.31'04"
5th) José Feliu, Elizalde, 3h.32'20"
7 starters/5 classified

11-1 and 4-1923
Gran Premio de España de Autociclos
200 laps - in two heats, due to pouring rain
1st overall) Robert Benoist, Salmson, 3h.14'51" @ 123'2 kmh.
1st up to 750 cc) Lombard, Salmson, 3h.40'41"
9 starters/9 classified

11-4-1923
Gran Premi de "Voiturettes" -Up to 1500 cc.
300 laps x 2 km., 600 km.
1st) Darío Resta, Talbot-Darracq, 4h.22'11"5 @ 137'3 kmh.
2nd) Albert Divo, Talbot-Darracq, 4h.22'11"6
3rd) Count Zborowsky, Aston Martin, 4h.39'43"5
4th) Tazio Nuvolari, Chiribiri, 4h.45'23"0
10 starters/4 classified

These were the sole International events.

I've been walking around the track and, as fines says, the banking is indeed very steep banking.

[fines]

As I said before, my theory is just speculative, or shall I say: deductive. But I would like to think the SC was considerably heavier than the monoposto which should have quite an impact on lap times at a circuit like Reims. Do you know any details about the weight of either car?

As for Sheldon, I'm well aware that his information on chassis numbers is anything but reliable. I don't want to add to the confusion, just stimulate discussion. I just felt there must've been a reason for his "166GP", could be nonsense after all...

About the radiator grille you're right, I've also seen a picture of Sommer's car with the vents. Theoretically the bodywork could've been exchanged, but that sounds rather highly unlikely. Looks like I'm beaten by reality...

PS Michael, I thought you'd use the night for sleep, don't you?

[Barry Lake]

This has been one of the more interesting threads on this forum. I like to see such things being put into some sort of order. The problem is: how will future historians know which is the most accurate record of chassis numbers?
My experience is that many collectors of racing cars prefer not to know the real history of their car if it doesn't fit what they want it to be or if it doesn't increase the car's value.
And, while we all seem to applaud the existence of the GP and Voiturette books, their many errors, while appearing to be authoritative could lead many future historians down the wrong path. I always believed these books should have future, corrected, editions, but it seems this isn't going to happen.


FELIX
I went to that web site you gave me but could find nothing about the book you mention (my lack of knowledge of the language didn't help).
If you are able to give me a lead to buying a copy I would very much appreciate it.


GP & VOITURETTE BOOKS
While on the subject of GP & Voiturette books, does anyone know how to contact Paul Sheldon? I am trying to learn which books (Formula Junior, F3 etc) I have missed, so I can begin tracking them down.


Apparently there was a book done recently by Sheldon/Rabagliatti with results of every race ever run at Goodwood, but the limited print run sold out almost immediately, before any even made it into book shops.
I once was on their mailing list but, for some reason, despite having bought all of the GP and F5000 books, I am no longer on it. It is very frustrating to miss out on books that never will be re-published.
It is to be hoped that various people will someday have detailed lists of results on web sites of all the various races in countries around the world.
If we had people working in various specialised areas, some day we could do it. Of course this already is happening with many of the people on this forum and I am confident the numbers will grow in the future.

[Don Capps]

Michael M,

While the following...

Although Sheldon’s books of course are very valuable and informative is seems to be a fact that they contain a lot of mistakes, especially concerning chassis numbers. To fix chassis numbers by your own decision due to lack of any other reliable information only creates confusion, and in my eyes should be avoided. If such numbers are not known, then this should be accepted as a fact.

...is perhaps good theory, practice dictates otherwise. My own experience suggests that some things are and will simply always be mysteries for reason good or bad. On the other hand, sometimes, as Mssrs. Gilbert & Sullivan remind us:

Things are not always what they seem,
Skim milk masquerades as cream

Until Barry Hobkirk releases his magnum opus on the complete history of the Maserati 250F series, my humble effort will have to do. And, it runs counter to most of the previous ideas of what was perceived to be true. I think it is pretty accurate and I am adding some information for Case History soon as well.

I have few qualms anymore about putting the notation "probably" or "should be" or "betcha" by many of the blank chassis numbers I fill in in Sheldon or other places. And, I am usually pretty accurate -- sometimes to my surprise!

Barry is quite correct about how some collectors and dealers are: I know, since I do find myself communicating with a number of them. It is surprising that as old as Case History is -- no revision in ages -- it pops us in the Most Interesting places... Indeed, I find myself at times being asked to confirm or deny, well, myself!

Is this a great place or what?

[Felix Muelas]

Jarama,

If you own -and it looks like- a copy of the "Histôria de l'automobilisme a Catalunya" will you please confirm that the Rabassada races are included there?

;)

Felix

[Michael M]

Don, you say „that some things are and will simply always be mysteries”, this is exactly what I wanted to express. The chassis number game is not only difficult, but also dangerous. General opinion is that all 3 1948 Ferrari monoposti disappeared, but based on our investigations there are signs now that c/n 06C is still in existence today, although as F2 (it was in fact converted to F2 in 1949). If the “guess” that 06C was the prototype is spread publicly, it soon will be converted to “theory”, somewhat later the word “reasonable” is added, and next step is “probably is”. If such car will appear at an auction somewhere in future, catalogue then will read “many well known historians confirm that this is the first ever Ferrari monoposto built”, a statement which for sure will increase value. Therefore chassis numbers should only be published – and this forum is public - , if they are proven and confirmed.

Another problematic point in Fines’ list is the early appearance of the 1949 series GP cars – 08C, 10C, and 12C. These cars only had been ready for the Swiss GP early July, and contrary to the 1948 series they never had been used as F2. All F2 entries shown for 08C, 10C and 12C most probably are not correct, as Ferrari built a series of 7 (exact number still needs confirmation) F2 monoposti, numbered 01F to 013F, which – and that seems to be the reason for this confusion – had fully identical bodywork to the 3 new GP cars. To bring even more confusion into the game, the 3 1948 cars also received the new bodywork, probably already before the 1948/48 Temporada, so that the 1949 season had (at least) 13 identical looking cars.

Many publications show Peter Whitehead’s 10C as early as Jersey (April 28) or even San Remo (April 3), but this machine was fully identical to the 2 Scuderia Ferrari cars (08C & 12C), and consequently it is impossible that it appeared earlier than Bremgarten (July 3). Only solution is that Whitehead’s early season car was one of the 1948 machines, which one we are still investigating.

02C correctly is given for the Thinwall Special No. 1, but the same number is shown then for Sterzi at Angouleme (June 12). This is impossible, because the remains of TWS # 1 had been returned to Italy only in November that year. There are signs that Sterzi was the first private customer for the new F2 (01F), which probably was the reason that this series was numbered uneven. Obviously the decision to run also 3 F2 by the Scuderia came later, but the numbering system remained unchanged.
Franco Cortese purchased 06C from the SF, which then had been finally converted to F2, and Chico Landi most probably brought the 1948/49 Temporada car (04C) back to Europe, where it was upgraded by the factory to 1949 F2 specidications. Fangio’s Monza car (June 26) also of course could not have been 02C, it was 011F which has been picked up from the factory only a few days before. Interesting item is that it was still painted red, not showing the blue-yellow Argentine livery, because when raced at Monza it was still unpaid. For that reason Ferrari claimed Fangio’s victory as one for the Scuderia, although the entry was by the ACA.

I could continue this list of unclear and contrary items, but believe the other members of our forum will find this boring. However, unfortunately I have to say that Fines’ list is highly speculative in terms of chassis numbers, and as said earlier, publication of such list will create confusion. As you may recognize, I use the word “probably” very often in this posting, but not because I’m not convinced, only because I cannot prove it.

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

To; Fines; I would have to agree with Felix on the reason for closing the track. The contractor was owed lots of money for construction, and even took the gate money on that first race, and didn't pay the drivers, so guess what? the drivers never came back!

The banking yes is awsome, but so were the drivers of the day..with speeds like 96mph average, for a 2km track that must have been a real show... if you have any photos out of any books please e-mail them to me...
motorsport1@arrakis.es

Regards
Peter MSR

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by Michael M
I could continue this list of unclear and contrary items, but believe the other members of our forum will find this boring.

Michael M
This is not at all boring. I find it fascinating. Please continue.

[Don Capps]

Michael M, We are obviously members of the same the chorus, but in different sections. Your concerns about the publication of chassis numbers is laudatory, but reflects only one side of the issue, that of the members of the Gordon Gekko Fan Club.

This statement...

Therefore chassis numbers should only be published – and this forum is public - , if they are proven and confirmed.

...is fine if we were perhaps dealing with a rational subject. The Gordon Gekko types have little or no interest in the cars themselves, since their only true interest is in the monetary value of the machine, which they can manipulate with no help from us. They are not intersted in "history" or "heritage" or what the machine conveys, only the Money. When money talks -- nobody walks, remember.

Like the famed Number 6 in The Prisoner who keeps asking, "What do you want?" we are in the role of Number 2 reponding with, "Information!"

As is obvious, I take a more radical stance on this issue than most. The issue is the availablity and open exchange of information. In the academic world we do the equivalent quite often of the "probably" or "possibly" or "betcha" all the time: it is called discussion and is found in both journals and at sessions where papers are presented. Accuracy requires discussion, research, and more "by-guess" and "by-golly" than most are willing to admit. Information should not be hostage to those who publish $500 books or wish to use it for purposes solely motivated by increasing the value of a vehicle or simply cornering the "market" on information and providing only their version of the story -- take it or leave it.

Michael, I think your discussion of the issues surrounding the F2 series are long overdue and have me mulling over some ideas about this area that I never considered before. Please continue it, since I and many others find it anything but boring! "Fascinating" and "thoughtful" are the words that spreing to my mind. Pray, please continue!

[fines]

Don, Michael M, I think you're both right. The solution should be somewhere in the middle. Posting information only if it's proven or confirmed would be parsimony. Just think of the respective works of Paul Sheldon or Phil Harms, for example. Both are full of factual errors, but without them life would be pretty desperate for the likes of us!

I think that what you have to do, above all, is to state whether your information is checked to any possible degree of certainty (and, to speak with Descartes, there is always doubt). If your information is suspect, then fine if you draw attention to that particular fact. That was just what I was trying to do.

However, it is quite obvious by now that I was wrong on most accounts. But how could I have found out about that if I hadn't published my record in the first place? If I'd waited till Michael M or AUSTRIA would've published their thoughts I'd probably growe a long beard (sorry, you both ;)). That is not to say I prefer information to be put out as soon as possible, but by the same token it should not be held in custody until the last shadow of a doubt is diluted.

The more you publish, the more people are able to think about it, to point out errors and to eventually improve your information. That is what makes this forum so essential. There is no substitute to public discussion!

[AUSTRIA]

Originally posted by fines
.. I’ve developed my own theory about this messy subject although I have to admit that so far it’s pure speculation. But I noticed that whenever F1 and F2 races were run concurrently the number of Ferraris in each category usually shrunk. I concluded that this was probably because the same chassis were used for F1 and F2, with engines exchanged between the weekends.
[p]

finas, your guess seems to be right. What our investigations brought lo light, is, it seems that all six cars, that first had been used in formula 1, later also were used in formula 2. Of course we have more details, but as I wrote some posts above and already some months ago: ' ... it is a long, long story now. The Atlas BB will be the wrong place to discuss it.' Please don't misunderstand this statement; here are the right people to talk about this topic, but a BB is not the right tool. So everybody who wants is invited to take part in our discussion, please send a short note and we will contact you.

Originally posted by fines
..
I am well aware that there are a lot of „problem areas" in this record, so treat it rather as a base for further discussions.
[p]

I see your list as a contribution for our discussion, but that should clearly be declared. It is obvious, that many suppositions simply are wrong. But your thoughts behind your result, that is from interest, of course.

Originally posted by fines
..

If I'd waited till Michael M or AUSTRIA would've published their thoughts I'd probably growe a long beard
[p]

Of course, finas. If we would publish all our thought and result of our investigations here, the Atlas-BB soon would break down ;)

E.T.

[Don Capps]

Austria,

Let the BB breakdown! These sorts of discussions work best when they are inclusive rather than exclusive.

There is no "right" or "wrong" involved here, only the question of how do we work (or cope -- which might be a better word) with issues such as this with the emergence of new information technologies.

Frankly, we have probably done more in this thread lately than has been done in years & years on this issue. This is exciting stuff.

[fines]

I just wanted to beat Ray Bell to the 40th posting ;)![p][Edited by fines on 10-03-2000]

[Ray Bell]

I hold a watching brief and get this kind of comment?
What thoughts do you people hold of me?
I'm reading this stuff, taking it in, but not contributing because I have nothing to contribute.
Here, you see, I contribute nothing....
Except a 'please go on...'

[jarama]

Felix,

yes, I have this book and it includes a chapter for the most famous Catalonian hillclimbs -Rabassada, Montserrat and Montseny- with a brief history and rankings from the first Rabassada hillclimb, 6-11-1922, to the last one, 11-27-1983.

[Michael M]

Oops, it seems that we have drilled into a nest of hornets!
First of all to Don, if the impression came up that I’m member of the “Gordon Gekko Fan Club” (nice word, if you allow I will use it more often in future!), this is completely wrong, it’s just the other way round, and I thought I made this clear with my posting.
I’m also not against publishing of chassis numbers, but only against unconditional statements. Fines’ first posting was a list showing race entrants with chassis numbers, and although he mentions the word “speculation” for me it was not clear enough, that he means the telaio. This is confirmed by the fact that Austria and myself shouted hip-hip-hooray, because we had been convinced that we found the final source for everything we searched after for so long. Without the further discussion, it may well have happened that some people filled the white gaps in their files, and crude mistakes are carried forward. Such mistakes then may be used by the “Gordon Gekko Fan Club” in their advantage, and exactly that I want to avoid! I believe that all unclear chassis umbers should only by published – also in a forum – together with either a short comment (quote Don: In the academic world we do the equivalent quite often of the "probably" or "possibly" or "betcha" all the time), or a more detailed explanation about the background of the source or the theory. To make it clear, of course C/Ns should be part of our discussions here, but not as “that’s it”.

Coming back to the “Gordon Gekko Fan Club” (really nice wording – hihi!). I quote Don saying “since their only true interest is in the monetary value of the machine, which they can manipulate with no help from us”. I don’t believe that such statement is correct anymore. It was so in the past, yes, I saw some Ferrari “histories” issued end of the 80s, which really are so crude, that I started laughing, and of course we have Stan Nowak’s famous sales histories from the 60s and 70s (btw, does anybody know how often he sold the “oldest Ferrari”?). But nowadays an expensive classic race car can only be sold sucessfully, if the history is “bullett proof”, which has not the same meaning as “correct” of course. Sentences like “X said that…” or “as published in …” are extremely helpful, if the information in question is useful for the seller.

As said earlier, this is a project together with Austria, which we launched somewhere in February or March this year. We started with 1947, went through all the Spyder Corsas, and are now somewhere in the early 50s (more to this below). Especially the SC section was adventurous, we finally came to the conclusion that today more Spyder Corsas are existent than originally built. Yes, most probably I will be able to point out the doubtful candidates, and no, I will not do so, neither here in this forum nor in any other publication. During our research we had been in contact with persons, who obviously refused to disclose their true knowledge or point of view, because they had been afraid to be forced by legal action. Once burned, you fear the fire! The difference between a genuine Spyder Corsa and a replica or a fake is approx. $ 1.5 to 2 million, need I say more?

Coming now to the request to continue this special topic here in this forum. Some of you may remember that it is leading through this forum like a red thread, I would like to remember my topics “Ferrari 06C” and “Biondetti Ferrari-Jaguar special”, and of course Austria’s “F2” thread here, and for sure also some others which I do not remember at this moment. So we are not excluding you guys from this discussion, but we only extend it to the forum if we really reach a dead end street on a certain item. Fyi, the whole discussion meanwhile reached …. let me check …. 38.031.360 bytes resp. 320 files ….. excluding the pictures wich are stored separately! I believe it will be impossible to deviate the total discussion to the forum, because this would be simply to much – not only for Austria and me, but also for 99 % of the members. I also have to say that recently we decided a break, because we first have to consolidate all files and infos, and issue an – internal - summary. This summary then will contain some valuable and interesting new information, which of course we are ready to share (btw, Don, most probably you have to rewrite your Thinwall Special story …!). On the other side also a lot of open questions will remain, and also these of course we will insert to the forum for further discussion.

On the other side I also believe Austria’s idea to create an e-mail discussion group could be a suitable solution, however, this would mean for Austria and myself that we have to switch from our German mother language to English, which is more complicated and time consuming. It also would mean that we have to change our corresponding and filing system, which does not work if more than 2 are involved. But if it makes sense, of course we would be pleased to do so.

[AUSTRIA]

Ray, you should not wonder; we are not accustomed you to be so calm.;)


A book-question:

Batchelor: Early Spiders and Competition roadsters

Who knows it, and will it bring some more perceptions? What is the contents? And how good is it?

E.T.

[Don Capps]

Michael,

Less I create any other impression, I am in agreement with you. The Gordon Gekko's are the reason folks like you and I are sorting out the bodies today and being a tad more reluctant than we would have to be.

My frustration is not in the least with your excellent comments and thoughts -- quite the contrary -- just that we are having to look over our shoulders. Over which the Gordon Gekko's are peering intently...

I had to smile when mentioned a Certain Name (Stan Nowak) and the "oldest Ferrari" story since even I started having questions about some of the histories of various early (pre-1955) telaio which seemed to be fairly well decently documentd, even for that day.

Somewhere in the distant past, I obtained the 1968 list that the US Dept. of Transportation had of Ferrari chassis numbers which determined the requirements for whether or not a vehicle could be imported or not due to new environmental regs for cars. I was a nice story that Gil would appreciate since it was a situation of one Old Boy helping another (not-so) Old Boy. Regrettably, that list has been on the MIA list, but I did cause me to seriously question some histories in the 1970's of various cars.

As to the Thinwall Special, rewrite, not a problem since that one has bothered me for years and years. I have never been able to get a good handle on some aspects of that particular deal and all I could offer was based on what I then knew, which is why I am loving this thread.

As to your suggestion about the work you & Austria have done, email me and we'll talk.

I have the Batchelor book(s), but not with me. Nice pictures if nothing else!

[fines]

Barry (almost forgot about you), Paul Sheldon's address should still be

St Leonard's Press
4 Station Road, Esholt
Shipley, West Yorkshire
BD17 7QR
United Kingdom

although I haven't had contact with him lately (still on my "to do" list ).

Michael M, I can confirm Farina's 1949 Temporada car had the new bodywork already (photographic evidence in William Court's "Power and Glory", Vol 1), but if the 1949 GP Ferrari (08C - 12C) hadn't been completed before the Swiss GP in July, how'd you explain three F1 Ferraris appearing at the Belgian GP two weeks earlier with the prototype (02C) still in England?

[fines]

... and finally, I understand, I should now be a full member!?

[AUSTRIA]

Originally posted by Don Capps

-- just that we are having to look over our shoulders. Over which the Gordon Gekko's are peering intently...

Don, one reason, why it is not possible to make our results public.

Originally posted by Don Capps


I have the Batchelor book(s), but not with me. Nice pictures if nothing else!

A question to the pictures: are they the same as seen in all the other books or are there also 'new' ones? Pictures are an important medium to sort out some more questions.

E.T.

[AUSTRIA]

Originally posted by fines
..., but if the 1949 GP Ferrari (08C - 12C) hadn't been completed before the Swiss GP in July, how'd you explain three F1 Ferraris appearing at the Belgian GP two weeks earlier with the prototype (02C) still in England?

One point for you, fines.;) Michael wrote: 'These cars only had been ready for the Swiss GP early July, and contrary to the 1948 series they never had been used as F2'.

Michael must have mixed up the two races, but the main content surely was the refusal of the F2-usage of the three chassis. Although I must add: he forgot to say: 'in the year 1949. There are clear signs, that all 6 of the series up to the 12C got F2-cars in their later life.

E.T.