126 replies to this topic

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I have to say that picture #6 don't look like Ascari to me.

Are we positive it is?

Yes we are. A rather similar picture was published in The Autocar of August 5, 1949, page 789, race account (for those of us who have it). Same helmet, same vizor, same racing number...

[Barry Boor]

Fair enoughski!

[Doug Nye]

Jean-Maurice - spot-on. Otherwise keep going guys - and Michael re no F2 pix - while I post easily available scans from our collection I'm not yet into spending more time than I have to give blood...

Re Villoresi at Boreham, what was actually painted on his car was '17 -1'. I have a photo showing same, but hesitate to post it (because it is as irrelevant as those above - not being F2).

I believe '17' is an unlucky number in Italy, so the '-1' presumably was added in the hopes of diminishing the jinx? It certainly did the trick since Villoresi won...

DCN

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Jean-Maurice - spot-on. Otherwise keep going guys - and Michael re no F2 pix - while I post easily available scans from our collection I'm not yet into spending more time than I have to give blood...

Re Villoresi at Boreham, what was actually painted on his car was '17 -1'. I have a photo showing same, but hesitate to post it (because it is as irrelevant as those above - not being F2).

I believe '17' is an unlucky number in Italy, so the '-1' presumably was added in the hopes of diminishing the jinx? It certainly did the trick since Villoresi won...

DCN

Yes, you remember correctly about 17 being an "unlucky" number in Italy...

On another subject, why is it we old farts can remember stuff like this, but can't remember where we put down the house keys 2 minutes ago??

[Bjorn Kjer]

I will help you , a key is NOT interesting

[D-Type]

Nice one Bjorn!

[Writer2]

It would appear, (please correct me if I am wrong), that in 1949 there was only one F2 car built, 01F for Count Sterzi.  As this was in 1949 re-numbered by the factory as 011F, and exported to Argentina, together with a later 013F, this APPEARS to point to the fact that there were only Tipo 125C F1 cars available to the factory team in 1948/49.

 

Therefore, the factory would re-engine the F1 cars to F2 specification at the factory, between races.  Is this correct?

[Arjan de Roos]

One of my pet peeves is the fact that there is a mother lode of information out there in languages other than English that is often overlooked. ......

 

A book that I recommend is "Ferrari Automobile 1947-1953" by Millanta, Orsini and Zagari. An absolute bible on Ferrari's first years of competition. Yet, and this was mentioned here already, many cars, chassis, engines have been (ex)changed, modified, (re)sold, reworked, damaged, etc in these years as this was the way it was. Let me state: the book is a good reference shedding some light in a quite grey area when it comes to Ferrari specs and will also not deliver full clarity which will never be found.

[Michael Ferner]

It would appear, (please correct me if I am wrong), that in 1949 there was only one F2 car built, 01F for Count Sterzi.  As this was in 1949 re-numbered by the factory as 011F, and exported to Argentina, together with a later 013F, this APPEARS to point to the fact that there were only Tipo 125C F1 cars available to the factory team in 1948/49.

 

Therefore, the factory would re-engine the F1 cars to F2 specification at the factory, between races.  Is this correct?

 

Long time since I looked into this, but that was the impression I gleaned at the time.

[Writer2]

Thank you Michael Ferner.  I am at present compiling a database of Ferrari's F1 cars from 1948-51, under the 1.5 litre supercharged/4.5 litre unsupercharged Formula. 1948 and 1949 are relatively simple on the info presented here, the 1948 cars being converted to F2 in 1949, new long wheelbase twin supercharged 4-cam engined cars replacing them.   It is when we come to the Tipo 375 of 1950 and '51 that I see a problem.  As Ferrari knew that this formula was ending in 1951, it seems to me highly unlikely, (but not impossible!), that the factory built new cars for 1951.  Yes, the 1950 cars may have been upgraded for 1951, and probably re-numbered to reflect this but built new? What does anyone else think, or more importantly, may have proof of, one way or another?

Edited by Writer2, 26 July 2022 - 14:53.

[Roger Clark]

Ferrari didn't know that the formula was ending in 1951.  It was only in the early months of 1952 that the decision was made to run the world championship races to Formula 2.

[Frank Verplanken]

And the formula wasn't really ending either, it was just dropped from the World Championship but remained the official Formula 1 until the end of 1953. The Scuderia Ferrari ran their 375s a few times in F1 races in 1952-53.

[Writer2]

Roger, Frank: Thank you for this information. I had forgotten that it was the withdrawal of the Alfa Romeo team that brought the F2 cars to race in the World Championship. Age!

[Tim Murray]

Here’s an earlier thread on the subject:

1952 World Championship change to Formula 2

Although some organisers had decided to run their events for F2 as early as January/February 1952, it was the failure of BRM to honour their entry for the Turin race in early April that tipped the balance for almost all the remaining organisers.

[Doug Nye]

Correct - the BRM non-appearance in Turin was the last nail in the coffin.  

 

Raymond Mays of BRM was personally star struck throughout his long life - no matter for what reason someone might enjoy celebrity status.  For RM a real star could equally have been a racer, an actor, a singer, dancer, politico or royalty.  He was magnetically attracted to them all - not least because he viewed himself as a fellow celeb, and craved association with others...

 

When Argentina-born Brit Eric Forrest Greene wrote from Buenos Aires to inform him of Fangio's willingness to test-drive the V16 during his imminent visit to England, RM pushed the Trustees into grasping "this once-only chance", all thoughts of competing in Turin were abandoned, and the team - despite majority dismay and opposition from many of its more sensible personnel - was ordered to rush back from lengthy testing at Monza (just 85 miles from Valentino Park, Turin) to accommodate the World Champion.  

 

Fangio understood nothing about this date clash, and later said he would have been perfectly happy to test for them "some other time".  Unlike Moss, he always spoke highly of the V16 and was plainly intrigued by the prospect of "overcoming" it.  

 

And RM - completely unconscious of how BRM's non-appearance could break the terribly thin ice beneath Formula 1's very survival as the frontline category - had shot his project not so much in the foot, as in the head.

 

DCN 

Edited by Doug Nye, 28 July 2022 - 06:00.

[RAP]

Thank you Michael Ferner.  I am at present compiling a database of Ferrari's F1 cars from 1948-51, under the 1.5 litre supercharged/4.5 litre unsupercharged Formula. 1948 and 1949 are relatively simple on the info presented here, the 1948 cars being converted to F2 in 1949, new long wheelbase twin supercharged 4-cam engined cars replacing them.   It is when we come to the Tipo 375 of 1950 and '51 that I see a problem.  As Ferrari knew that this formula was ending in 1951, it seems to me highly unlikely, (but not impossible!), that the factory built new cars for 1951.  Yes, the 1950 cars may have been upgraded for 1951, and probably re-numbered to reflect this but built new? What does anyone else think, or more importantly, may have proof of, one way or another?

 

Michael Muller carried out extensive research into the early Ferrari chassis numbers. Michael no longer frequents this Forum but he very kindly shared his conclusions with the Formula One Register and it is in our Record Books

www.formulaoneregister.com

Volume 4 (1937-49) is currently being updated but there are few changes relating to Ferraris.

Richard Page

Formula One Register

[Writer2]

Thank you Doug, very interesting!

 

Going through all the information that has been on this thread, I have some queries, which the readers, despite this taking place over 22 years, might be able to help with.

 

1: The "02C" that went to VP in 1949, and returned to the factory; Was this the 1948 F1/F2 car 125-C-02?

 

2: 125-C-12; Was this the car that went to Staechelin? And then was later found by Colin Crabbe in South America?

 

3: The car that went to Louis Rosier; was this 375-51-02?

 

It certainly looks as if 125-C-08 went to Pires in 1950.

[Writer2]

Sorry, RAP.

 

Just seen this. V. interesting and thank you.

[Writer2]

On another, but related, note: What do the chassis numbers 102,04, 106 relate to? Are they in the same system as the re-numbered 0114?

[Doug Nye]

No they were not.

 

The Ferrari Formula 1 chassis numbering system was re-set with the flat-12 312B models of 1970 - commencing with chassis '001'.  By the end of team car construction in 1979 they had reached design series 312T4 and chassis serial '041'.

 

In 1980 they produced the rather unfortunate 312T5 model, construction notionally starting with chassis serial '042'.

 

By the end of 1987 with their F1/87 model construction reached chassis serial '099'

 

For 1988 with the F1/87/88C the first of the five chassis built was numbered '100'.

 

Chassis '102' became Gerhard Berger's 1988 Italian GP winning car.  I think this is the case.

 

DCN

[Writer2]

Sorry Doug.

 

I should have pointed out that this Ferrari numbering system that I am referring to seems to have started in 1949.

[Writer2]

And... Has anyone on this forum actually ever seen or photographed the chassis numbers on the cars themselves?  I ask because we are being told that the original 1948 numbers were: 125C-02, 04 and 06.  For 1949, we have 125C-08,10,12.  Then we have "GP49-C-01/02." (or 00-01).

Apparently, GP49-C-01 was renumbered 0114, when it was sold to Peter Whitehead but what if that was its number from new?  Working backwards, that would give us 0112, 0110.0108,0106,0104,0102.  I'm sure you get my drift...

Someone on the forum mentioned chassis numbers 104, 106 etc.  Is this what we're really talking about?

[Doug Nye]

The four-digit '0114'-style numbers were applied initially only upon car sale to a paying customer.  This why evidence survived on some early chassis of number over-stamping or of re-numbering stamped into a small plate then attached over the original works identifying number.  However, where Ferrari is concerned the superimposed plate ploy was nowhere near as common as upon Maseratis...  

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 01 August 2022 - 09:11.

[Writer2]

Thank you Doug.

[Writer2]

Looking through old files, I found a letter from 1997 about the two F2/FL cars in Argentina in 1949. Amongst the interesting information is: "At the end of 1949, they received 2-litre powerplants" and: "I'm told that the  car exhibited in the Fangio Museum is the one which Oscar Galvez drove in the two-race, 1951 "Temporada" programme. its chassis number, (013F?-Author), was not to be found when I visited the museum in 1996 but 'a reliable European source (!)' tells me that it was either numbered "12C" or "14C" until the beginning of 1951, when it could have been renumbered as "102"....

Edited by Writer2, 01 August 2022 - 15:14.

[Writer2]

Looking at those customer chassis numbers on the thread, and then using the further information published there, we can see the following:

 

102 was originally GP3/50, a 212, sold to Ecurie Espadon for Peter Staechelin.

104 was either sold to Chico Landi or, more likely, Oscar Galvez. A Tipo 375?

106 was sold to Pinheiro Pires, Uruguay. Originally 125-C-08.

108?

110 was sold to Fischer, Ecurie Espandon, originally 125-C-04.

112?

0114: Peter Whitehead, England. Originally GP49-C-01.

 

Comments would be appreciated....

[Writer2]

I've been researching the Ferrari that Argentinian Oscar Galvez drove in two races in the Temporada series of 1951, on the Costanera circuit.  According to what little I can find, it was a "borrowed Ferrari" and race results show it as a 166FL.  Surely this would have been either 011F or 013F?