38 replies to this topic

[bill moffat]

Having enjoyed some success with their Cedrics(!) Nissan turned to the Gp 7 category in the late 60's with some fearsome machinery.

The R380/381/382 models evolved from the use of borrowed Chevy V8's through to Nissan's own 6 Litre V12. The later R382 had a 6.5 Litre 4 valve per cylinder engine mated to a Hewland box. The R381 was distinguished by a split rear wing, additional downforce being exerted on the inner rear wheel on cornering.

I believe that Nissan have an R381 on show but have other models survived ? Could they be lured to Goodwood..or have I missed out and they have already paid a visit?

[ian senior]

The Japanese seemed quite keen on G7 in the late 60s. There were also the Toyota 7 cars, which I think were powered by their own engines. Any of these left too?

[bill moffat]

.another monster. The ultimate Toyota 7 of 1970 had a twin turbo 5 Litre V8.

A modest 800 bhp was quoted for this motor. Back in the UK Trojan showed interest and allegedly bolted this Toyota unit in the back of an M8C for evaluation. Where or how it went I do not know.

There could be a useful theme developing here. So Lord March , how about a "Rising Sun" theme for Goodwood next year. G7 cars from Nissan,Toyota and Isuzu. The Honda F1 cars, the developing Le Mans/IMSA efforts from Mazda, Dome ,Toyota and Nissan..and all of those wonderful motorbikes...

[Ray Bell]

Nissan had a victory in an endurance race at Surfers Paradise about 1969...

Not sure now if it was 12 hours or 6 hours.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Toyota 7


Nissan R380


Nissan R380 engine

[bill moffat]

thanks Rainer. The photos are of the R380 with its 6 cylinder in-line engine. Not quite monstrous at that stage but the bigger engines were already on the way. The references to "Prince" need explanation. The Prince Motor Co developed this car as an independent concern but became part of the Nissan group in August '66.

A derivative of the R380 engine found its way into the Skyline incidentally.

[wildman]

A few interesting notes about the R381s: If I'm not mistaken, their Chevy V8s were built by California hot-rodder Dean Moon. Their split wings were designed to be used as air brakes as well. When cornering, movement from the rear suspension was transferred to each half of the rear wing via a pressure differential in an oil-filled pipe.

Regarding Toyota, in 1969 they also raced a couple of McLaren M12s with their own 5-liter DOHC V-8s. These were equipped with chassis-mounted wings using traditional aircraft construction techniques: a lightweight framework covered in doped silk!

In the late '60s, the Japanese held a season-ending Group 7 race at Fuji International Raceway, to which they invited a number of Can-Am teams and drivers. Peter Revson won the '68 race in a McLaren M6-Ford, but Minoru Kawai won in a non-turbo Toyota 7 the following year. Makes you wonder what would've happened if Nissan and Toyota had come over to do the Can-Am series....

[SteveB2]

I've never seen this before. That must have looked bizarre in motion. I saw footage of the Chaparrel with the moveable wing and it just looked unnatural.

[bill moffat]

I have a nice photo of the Nissan R381 complete with the 2 elements of the aerofoil at different angles of attack.

I also have a wonderful new scanner with too many buttons and a multi-CD installation programme that I have yet to master..hence I'm unable to post the image. However the photo is attributed to the "Doug Nye Collection" , perhaps he can help us out.

[wildman]

Evidently Nissan has retained at least one example each of the R381 and R382. This site has images of both, taken in 1998. More shots of the R381 can be found here, and the same site has an awesome gallery of the Toyota 7 turbo.

Anybody have photos of the R381 coupe, which was apparently tested but never raced?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by bill moffat
.....A derivative of the R380 engine found its way into the Skyline incidentally.

I think you have the egg and chicken mixed up...

The Prince Skyline GT was out well before the R380 came along, 2-litre SOHC inline six with triple Weber dual choke side draughts... five speed box later in its production life... all before the takeover by Nissan, who actually continued the model unchanged for a short time.

[Paul Newby]

I always found the Toyota and Nissam racers a fascinating diversion to the usual Porsche/Ferrari/Fords/McLarens of that era.

Ray is right that the triple Weber 2.0 OHC "6" was a Prince engine that (I believe) started off in the Gloria and found its way into the original Skyline GT that race at Bathurst in 66 and 67. These cars had a little "GT" badge that has been carried on right through to the R34 GTR "Godzillas" - a nice touch.

IIRC the Nissan/Datsun R380 twice won the Surfers Paradise 12 Hour in 68 and 69. The 69 car was a Mark 3 version with the 2.0 "6" and I believed was "inspired" by the Porsche 906. Not sure how that helped Datsun (as it was known then) sell their 1600 and 1000 sedan cars, but I guess the 240Z was just around the corner.

[Ray Bell]

You're right there, Paul... it started in the Gloria...

Then they took the smaller boxy Prince sedan and did a 'Morris Isis' to it and created the Skyline GT.

As for Nissan sales and the Surfers 12-hour... well, they were selling the 1600 at the time, which had an engine of similar architecture, and there was the Personal 6 and the Super 6... though one of them had a pushrod engine (don't ask me which!), all the OHC engines having some kind of similarity to the Prince design.

[Paul Newby]

In the annals of Japanese automotive history there is a fascinating story about Prince that I don't think has been told (at least I haven't read it ) Prince were known as the "BMW of the Orient" and were responsible for the OHC "6", the Skyline and a fairly extensive racing program including the R380 and of course Skylines.

Ray, the Datsun 1600 was an advanced passenger car for the day and its OHC engine was derived from the Prince "6". I wonder whether it was initially designed by Prince? It would make sense, as Prince was taken over by Nissan in 1965-66. Also Datsun went or to make some antediluvian clunkers like the 1200 and 120Y which had Austin derived A Series engines and leaf rear springs - at the same time, so there wasn't much of a "family lineage" between the models.

Of course the Skyline continued through the 70's as the frontline "touring car racer" especially the KPGC10 of 71 - the holy grail of collectable Japanese cult cars, a sort of Falcon GTHO (Aussie TNFr's will understand )

Of course there is the 240Z. I wonder whether the former Prince engineers had imput into that one?

[Ray Bell]

There was very little Austin influence left by the time the 1000, 1200 and 120Y (same thing...) engines came along.

And I'd say, if 65/66 was the takeover date, the 510/1600 engine was all Nissan. That car was on the road in 1967, if not 1966.

[Beejay17]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
Also Datsun went or to make some antediluvian clunkers like the 1200 and 120Y which had Austin derived A Series engines and leaf rear springs - at the same time, so there wasn't much of a "family lineage" between the models.

I think Bill Evans might take exception to your inference Class A at Bathurst was very kind to the 1200.

[Ray Bell]

And Bruce Stewart?

[Paul Newby]

Originally posted by Beejay17


I think Bill Evans might take exception to your inference Class A at Bathurst was very kind to the 1200.

You mean the mustard and black works 1200 coupe , the one with the only 5 speed in the world.

Thats a significant Bathurst class winner from 1975 which I believe has been restored in original colours. Don't get me wrong, I like 1200 coupes, they were attractive cars in their day. The 1200 wagon with drums brakes that tried to kill me and a friend in my early days, well, that's another story.

Ray, we can add James Laing-Peach to the list of drivers as well.

What I was trying to say was that you had a company that was ahead of the pack with the fully independently suspended 1600 and progressed (?) to the 180B and then the 200B, complete with live rear axle. Somewhere, someone dropped the ball at Datsun/Nissan. Not too difficult to do when you realise that where dealing with a Japanese company here!

[mickj]

Re the Nissan R381's. I have notes that Dean Moon supplied the Chevy V8's, and that Don Nicholls was involved in the projects, before he started Shadow. I have seen an ad that he was either Firestone or Goodyear distributor in Japan in the middle 60's.

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


I think you have the egg and chicken mixed up...

The Prince Skyline GT was out well before the R380 came along, 2-litre SOHC inline six with triple Weber dual choke side draughts... five speed box later in its production life... all before the takeover by Nissan, who actually continued the model unchanged for a short time.

Weren;t Prince engines licence built from Mercedes-Benz? Thus the glorius Nissan L series motor which powered almost every Nissan/Datsun in the 60's & 70's including those first glorious Zeds used a Benz motor acquired in a takeover?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
You mean the mustard and black works 1200 coupe , the one with the only 5 speed in the world.

Thats a significant Bathurst class winner from 1975 which I believe has been restored in original colours. Don't get me wrong, I like 1200 coupes, they were attractive cars in their day. The 1200 wagon with drums brakes that tried to kill me and a friend in my early days, well, that's another story.

Ray, we can add James Laing-Peach to the list of drivers as well.....

Actually, the 200B also had the independent rear end (continuing on from the 180B...) but lost it only because of the need to increase Australian content. The Borg-Warner axle it shared with such cars as the Centura, Sigma and Marina was an industry standard unit.

Now... the 1200 coupe... yes, I've heard it's been restored. But the 5-speed box was hardly the only one in the world.

I well remember going up to John Roxburgh at Bathurst and talking about it. "The rules say you have to be able to buy the car with it in," he said, "and you can! In Tokyo..."

And this other chap you mention... well, he's tossed me out of too many places to be on any list I make of anything. I simply don't know what he has against me, but the embarrassment he's caused others who have invited me in only to see him toss me out is terrible.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by bill moffat
.A modest 800 bhp was quoted for this motor. Back in the UK Trojan showed interest and allegedly bolted this Toyota unit in the back of an M8C for evaluation. Where or how it went I do not know.

I believe it was the Ecurie Evergreen McLaren M8C that was allegedly tested with this engine. An 800 bhp McLaren-Toyota sounds fascinating. Did it really happen and did the de Cadenet team ever consider racing it ? Someone out there must know !

[Dick Willis]

To set the record straight with those Nissan/Datsun engines, the L series were made in both four and six cylinder format, they were direct copies of an MB design particularly the camshaft/rockers etc. These engines were fitted to the Super 6, Personal 6, 240C, 240Z,etc and in 4 cylinder form to the 1600, 180B, 200B etc. and have absolutely nothing in common with the Prince range of engines(except the number of cylinders)as fitted to the original Prince Skylines and Glorias.

[Ray Bell]

There were definitely pushrod engines in either the Personal 6 or Super 6, Dick... I've seen them... almost a copy of a Freeway engine!

And as I posted, the Prince buyout came too late for the Datsun engine to be a rebadged Prince.

Odd, however, that two companies came up with such a similar engine at the same time. At least Toyota's was a little different in the valvegear!

[Dick Willis]

Sorry Ray, the very early Personal/Super sixes had an engine called a H30, a six cylinder version of the H20 used in some of their commercials, in 1969 or so they switched to the OHC L24 engine,

[eldougo]

Quote Ray Bell

And this other chap you mention.. : you cant please everyone Ray

[Ray Bell]

I can tell you, Barry Jones was absolutely aghast!

He was sponsored by B F Goodrich, who had a nice hospitality area at the back of the Bathurst pits. I'd been discussing things with him for some time and he offered me the opportunity to join him and continue the discussion over a snack in this hospitality area.

The lame one was in charge, he saw me walk in and sit down, he immediately called security guards and had me physically tossed out.

That their sponsored driver had invited me wasn't good enough... that he, who has never said a word to me about anything that seems relevant, wanted me out was all that mattered.

It wasn't the only occasion...

[Paul Newby]

I've hit the books.

The story of the Prince 380 goes back to 1964 where Prince shoehorned their G7 2.0 "6" into the S54B Skyline shell - they had to add 4 inches to the wheelbase to make it fit! Price had their eye on winning the 1964 Japanese Grand Prix (for sports cars) until some enterprising chap imported a Porsche 904, and well you can guess the result.

Prince decided to build a sports racer which was clearly inspired by the 904, but with a Skyline derived engine in the back. I'm not sure whether the R380 had the same spec engine from beginning to end but the two R380A Mk 3s that came to Australia in late 1969 for the Surfers Paradise 6 Hour (the only time they raced abroad) had the fuel injected aluminium 24 valve DOHC engine called the GR8.

Kevin Wolfe, editor of Sports Car World was offered a "drive" of one of the cars on the Thursday before the race, after the four Japanese drivers had done the minimum laps to qualify. In the end, he couldn't fit in comfortably, so he was put in the passenger seat without a harness for a few laps! The R380's only competition was the Matich SR3 which broke its clutch, the Nissans cruising to a 1 2 finish. I wonder whether these particular cars still exist?

Now the confusion with engines. Firstly the L16 which was used in the Datsun 1600/510. This OHC 1.6 was a four cylinder version of the Mercedes 6 built under licence by Prince before the Nissan takeover. (I wonder whether Prince had input into the 1600?) The L24 engine is the L16 with two extra cylinders and was used in the 240Z. The L20 is not related to either the L16 or L24 and I believe that it is derived from the G7 with a different bore and stroke - both engines were listed for the GC10 Skyline GT of 1967 (actually the GTB had the G7 and the GT-A had the L20.) Now the KPGC10 Skyline GT-R had the cast iron block S20 engine with aluminium 24 valve DOHC head and three Mikuni-Solex carbs. This engine had seven main bearings of which five were four bolt mains. The S20 was also used in the Japanese only Fairlady Z (240Z for us) Z432. We could talk about the ohv6s as well, but here is a link with the various specs, it is confusing http://www.geocities...3823/specs.html

As for the live axle in the Datsun 200B, IIRC the 200B Coupe which was imported retained the semi-trailing arm set up. It was probably the case that the Japanese spec cars were superior in design to the cars assembled here, but that doesn't explain the 120Y

The Nissan R382 with its 6.5 V12 has already been discussed, as has the Toyota 7. My contemporanrous sources show a normally aspirated 5.0 V8, that looks similar to the Cosworth DFV. It would appear that these monsters were the end of the line for Toyota and Nissan until Le Mans and then IMSA attracted them in the 80's, but that as they say is another story.

While we are on Japanese cars, the 70's saw the advent of Toyota, Nissan and Mazda concentrating on touring cars, and there was quite a flow on into Australia; Nissan Bluebirds and Skylines, Mazda RX3 and RX7. Toyota Corolla Sprinter and Supra. What has always intrigued me is the sporty version of the Corolla known as Levin, which I believe graces every sporty version since the early 70's. Where did the name come from? Did the Corolla win some minor touring car race in Levin, New Zealand? The Japanese never let go of these names it seems.

Ray, I here your comments about the "driver/journalist/pr extraordinaire. Bill Tuckey, in the 50th birthday edition of Wheels, mentions that his one regret was employing a journalist who was a quick driver but crashed 14 cars during Tuckey's time "all fo which he denies." Our friend fits the time frame but I supect that it was the other young gun at Wheels at the time (later to become editor.) Any (non libellous) views on the subject? I have briefly met both men in person.

[Ray Bell]

Now you're delving into Rob Luck territory...

14? Was it only 14?

Can't be libellous... BMC wouldn't let him drive their cars in the end...

As for the naming of the Levin, either David or Milan posted something about that a month or two ago... I can't find that post, however.

[Paul Newby]

Mmm, a dissertation of Australian motoring jounalists of yore would be a fascinating topic for this boy scout! Would probably send the rest of the TNFrs to sleep though.

Getting back to the R380s at Surfers in 1969. By all accounts it was a pretty professional effort, their first foray out of Japan, and apparently as a warm up to ... well, what exactly? Nissan had introduced the monstrous V12 engined R382 to counter Toyota 7 in big time sports car racing in Japan. The R380 would now just be a class car in Japanses if indeed they had a class?

As for entering the R380 on the world stage, I suspect that its time had passed for events like Sebring, Targa Florio and Le Mans. I wouldn't imagine it would be class competitive against the Alfas, Chevrons and the like.

As for the Toyota 7 and Nissan R382, they never ventured out of Japan either, did they? What is the story there? The world may be a different place if Toyota started it image enhancing assault on world motorsport in the 70's ....

[Paul Newby]

I've just read a an article by the usually reliable Joe Kenwright on the R31 Skyline specials, Silhouette I and II made in Australia by Nissan's SVD division in the late '80s.

Of course the Skyline lineage traces way back to the Prince S54 model from 1965 mentioned by me earlier in the thread. It goes on to say how we missed the C10 in 68 (where the Skyline GT-R started with the mighty KPGC10 with 34 valve twin cam 2.0) through to the C110 in 72 (marketed here as the 240K in sedan and hardtop) the C210 in 78 (we got those as the Skyline, but no homologation specials here) then the R30 (81), R31 (86?) and R32(90) which were all raced here in Group A (though the original Group A Skyline was a four cylinder DR30 ...) The Poms got the R33 and R34, not knowing the Japanese lineage. I didn't realise that to this day (or at least until they stopped the R34) Skylines were produced outside of the main Nissan "sausage machine" - they are still Princes

Of course now, with Carlos Ghosn at the helm, the hero GT-Rs won't be called Skyline won't have the traditional straight 6 and will be sold outside Japan, UK and Australia, probably in LHD as well. Had to happen I guess, one can't keep Japan's best kept secret forever, but its sad that such a tradition is ending - I wonder whether the little GT badge that has graced the front guard of every hot Skyline since the beginning will remain?

And no, I don't own one, but I do admire the focus on race bred engineering that these Skylines represented from the beginning, which is the legacy of Prince, the "BMW of the East" at the time. Its a pity their contribution to Japanese automotive history is not widely known.

[Catalina Park]

Nissan = Cedric

Prince = Homer

Nissan = Fairlady

Prince = Skyline

No contest!

[Jeremy Jackson]

I believe it was the Ecurie Evergreen McLaren M8C that was allegedly tested with this engine. An 800 bhp McLaren-Toyota sounds fascinating. Did it really happen and did the de Cadenet team ever consider racing it ? Someone out there must know !

Bill,

I believe it was another M8C, chassis 06 that was used for these tests. The car was used raced by Richard Eyre and others in the UK in the 80-90s (Don't know where it is now) with an M8D body.

This was said in various sources (Not least an advertisement by Eyre) to be the ex-Toyota test chassis. I think it was sold to Gordon Dewar who raced it in some events in the 1972 CanAm.

However, I've not read any details of the tests themselves.

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Now... the 1200 coupe... yes, I've heard it's been restored. But the 5-speed box was hardly the only one in the world.

In 1974-1975 an awesome Janspeed 1200 coupe was raced in the Netherlands by Han Tjan. It had a 5-speed gearbox and stood up very favourable indeed against the Spiess NSU TT of Henri van Oorschot. The Datsun was one of the best little touring cars I've ever seen.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
I've just read a an article by the usually reliable Joe Kenwright on the R31 Skyline specials, Silhouette I and II made in Australia by Nissan's SVD division in the late '80s.....

While acknowledging the worth of the balance of your post, I find it interesting that you've read this piece.

I haven't, but I've just written about the R31s racing in Australia. It will be out in MRA in about five weeks.

[Paul Newby]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


While acknowledging the worth of the balance of your post, I find it interesting that you've read this piece.

I haven't, but I've just written about the R31s racing in Australia. It will be out in MRA in about five weeks.

Ray, I dont quite understand, my views are quite catholic and I read widely on a variety of topics. The detail in Australian Muscle Car is truly impressive and the cars they've covered are worthy of this treatment. I am not a Street Machine or Fast Fours reader. I think my ideal magazine would see the "historical bits" from Motor Racing Australia (usually yours and Barry Lake's articles) and the detailed histories of significant racing cars (not just the V8s) like they do in Australian Muscle Car . (or maybe MRA could do a "best of" feature all the historical articles in one magazine! Now I would buy that!)

Of course it would never sell, except to a few Aussie TNFrs

[Ray Bell]

I think that Muscle Car Australia is going to be a big hit... it's taking off nicely.

No, I was interested that you'd seen it simply because I've just done the other piece. I never saw it at all...

I wonder what the chance is of doing that compilation, by the way... we once discussed doing the 'Closed Circuits' as such, but there would have to be more of them to fill it up. I should put some pressure on and do some...

[Paul Newby]

The Kenwright R31 Skyline is interesting for the first hand account from Paul Beranger and the awareness of the "elite Prince background." Infact Beranger met the original Prince engineering guru Shinichiro Sakurai whilst developing the Australia R31 - something I didn't know.

Anyway Ray, back to the R380 racers that came and conquered at Surfers Paradise in 1969. Do you recall the background to this assault. In the scheme of things this exercise really didn't go anywhere, didn't prove anything, didn't really help sell "Datsun" cars in Australia, surely?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Newby
.....Anyway Ray, back to the R380 racers that came and conquered at Surfers Paradise in 1969. Do you recall the background to this assault. In the scheme of things this exercise really didn't go anywhere, didn't prove anything, didn't really help sell "Datsun" cars in Australia, surely?

That was outside my field at the time, Paul...

I have no idea why, but the 12-hour didn't buzz me those last couple of years, I guess it was the time of year and the new wife and home I had to sort out. Maybe I had to take some time off racing some time of the year? Or if it clashed with other events closer to home?