37 replies to this topic

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Hi TNFers.
Don't visit this forum often, yet am fully aware of the knowledge and expertise of TNF frequenters.
My questions is about J. Mass and his F1 career, particularly at McLaren in the mid-70s.
I know he has only one win to his name, yet how good was Mass? What were his strong points and weak points? how did he fare against Hunt during the '76 season. i hope this question is not a repeat of several others which appeared before, and also would like to know if anyone knew of good link to Mass websites w/ good info and noice pix to download.
Grazie a tutti.

[Zawed]

I've often wondered about the merits of Mass as well, as results wise he does'nt stack up that well to Hunt as a team mate. That single win in Spain, in a race shortened by accidents, and a handful podiums versus Hunt and a world championship, several wins and podiums. Later, when he was at Arrows, he was usually out qualified and out raced by Patrese. One of his claims to fame could be that he played a part in the development of Schumacher and Frentzen as Mercedes Sportscar drivers, as being their co driver several times in 1990,91.

[cheesy poofs]

Unfortunately, on a tragic note, Mass will always be remembered for his involvement in Gilles Villeneuve's tragic accident.

IIRC, Mass was quite respectable against Emerson when both were teammates at McLaren, but when Hunt moved in for 1976... the Englishmen just blew him away.

I actually think that Jochen resigned himself that he couldn't be on the same level than Hunt.

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by cheesy poofs
Unfortunately, on a tragic note, Mass will always be remembered for his involvement in Gilles Villeneuve's tragic accident.

IIRC, Mass was quite respectable against Emerson when both were teammates at McLaren, but when Hunt moved in for 1976... the Englishmen just blew him away.

I actually think that Jochen resigned himself that he couldn't be on the same level than Hunt.

Just read an interview with Mass in "Grand Prix International" (1979). He complained about the lack of support inside the Mclaren team - "They gave only the no1 full support" he talks about lots of frustration etc" (...) "I feel sorry for Patrick Tambay now" (Mass drove for Arrows in '79)

Lutz

[Frank de Jong]

In my opinion, Jochen Mass was a very decent driver, no question about that - but not at the absolute top level like Hunt, Lauda c.s.
He was physically always in good shape (I remember he took part in a TV sporters' game, and doing very well), had supporters at Ford, where he drove touring car races - in which he was one of the stars - and who helped him into F1 at Surtees. For me, he's better in sports and touring car racing than single seaters; he had decent F2 and F3 races, but no more than that IIRC.
After McLaren, poor teams didn't help him, but he too seemed to miss the little bit of extra motivation, just like Stommelen for instance.
Some people say racing touring cars ruined his driving style for single seaters; perhaps this is true?

[Vicuna]

Lovely bloke - bloody good in sports cars.

[JtP]

Mass did a sporting superstars during the 70s. Like most F1 drivers he got murdered by the atheletes. Hunt had done 37 (iirc) push ups on the paralell bars, but using a some what long time to do it. Most atheletes couldn't get hear 20. Mass jumped on the bars ans rattled off a few more than Hunt without a stop and hopped off the bars.

I have a friend who watched Mass leave the paddock at the French GP in his Porsche with a young lady completely naked in the passenger seat and you possibly can't be better than that.

[LittleChris]

Don't forget he also won DSJ's mythical 1977 German GP at the Nurburgring according to Motor Sport ;)

I think he could well have won the 1976 real German GP since he alone started on slicks and was well ahead of the field when Lauda went off. If he had've won it might have given him a confidence boost and more rewarding F1 career.

[David M. Kane]

He was just too nice a guy and he wasn't very good at asserting himself.
If you didn't do that with Teddy Mayer you were toast...period. As a team
they were a bit like Williams are at this time, a pretty hard nut to crack
and not a lot of hugs...

[james27w]

The first year I worked at Surtees as a "go for" at Watkins Glen he drove for the team.He wasn't
particularly good.At McLaren, Hunt at times really hated the guy.He even ran Hunt off holding him
up while being lapped at Mosport.I don't think the guy was good enough.The 75 Spanish GP was
arguably Jackie Ickx's win.Mass seemd like a decent fellow, was as has been pointed out here in
very good physical condition but was certainly less talented than the majority of his team mates.He
had a reputation for blocking people .At the 1980 Monaco GP he put in one of his best drives to take 5th I think in wet conditions.

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
He was just too nice a guy and he wasn't very good at asserting himself.
If you didn't do that with Teddy Mayer you were toast...period. As a team
they were a bit like Williams are at this time, a pretty hard nut to crack
and not a lot of hugs...

Yes that's how Mass talks about his McLaren days (again Motorsport International '79) :

"It can't get any worse. There's lots of potential but you can't show it - you can't even compete with other drivers in inferior cars - that's how bad the support as no2 in the Mclaren team is...

(...)

"In the german mags you could read "We don't have any real f1 pilots anymore". One is only interested in boats (Jochen's passion - and naked girls in his Porsche as posted by JtP in this thread ;) ) and the other is a loony (I guess they mean Strietzel Stuck ) Niki got a Boing 747 and nobody say he's wasting his time on planes only"

Lutz

[Maldwyn]

Riccardo Patrese once described Jochen Mass thus: "as a person, Jochen is the greatest guy I've met in Formula 1", and their team manager at Arrows, Alan Rees, confirmed this view of him - "Fantastic guy Mass, super guy, one of the nicest drivers I've ever known without a doubt. He actually got on with everybody....the only one he didn't get on with was James Hunt."

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Maldwyn
Riccardo Patrese once described Jochen Mass thus: "as a person, Jochen is the greatest guy I've met in Formula 1", and their team manager at Arrows, Alan Rees, confirmed this view of him - "Fantastic guy Mass, super guy, one of the nicest drivers I've ever known without a doubt. He actually got on with everybody....the only one he didn't get on with was James Hunt."

If he is sensitive, that makes it all the more tragic to think that the poor guy will always be haunted by the Gilles crash.

Going a bit off topic. Just wondering if James Hunt ever got on well with his teammates.

[tyrrellp34]

Don’t forget Mass’ performance on the old Nürburgring when he was driving for John Surtees or later for McLaren.

[Doug Nye]

Jochen Mass = immensely good bloke + extremely talented and dependable racing driver not pushy enough to have maximised his chance in Formula 1. Formidable guy in endurance racing, combining pace with mechanical sympathy. You still wouldn't want him to be racing against you in any class today. Good guy for younger drivers to be teamed with...fine example and thoughtful advisor...

DCN

[BRG]

Originally posted by masterhit
Just wondering if James Hunt ever got on well with his teammates.

He never had any problem eith them at Hesketh.

Jochen Mass was at best a journeyman driver in F1, as was Derek Bell, I prefer to forget about their F1 careers and think of them where they were at their very best and where their abilities and talent served them better - in Gp C sports cars. When I think of Jochen, it is at the wheel of a Porsche, not a McLaren.

[2F-001]

My abiding memory of Jochen Mass would be the 1973 TT at Silverstone (ETCC round)... in the second heat Jochen in the works Capri (shared with Glemser??) had a long and epic dice with Quester's CSL although they were laps apart on aggregate from the first heat. Despite dicing with a renowned hard-man, whenever he was in front or behind (rather than alongside or swapping places) Jochen seemed to be inch-perfect lap after lap. This went on for 20 (or was it 40?) laps or so and only interrupted by the BMW's fuel stop. Well, it was entertaining enough, at least, to lodge in my mind for thirty years...

[masterhit]

Originally posted by BRG
He never had any problem eith them at Hesketh.

Jochen Mass was at best a journeyman driver in F1, as was Derek Bell, I prefer to forget about their F1 careers and think of them where they were at their very best and where their abilities and talent served them better - in Gp C sports cars. When I think of Jochen, it is at the wheel of a Porsche, not a McLaren.

Sounds sensible! Sounds like he was bloody good in sportscars then!

[TODave2]

Originally posted by masterhit
If he is sensitive, that makes it all the more tragic to think that the poor guy will always be haunted by the Gilles crash.

Wasn't he also involved in some crash where he ended up in a spectator enclosure or something...?

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by TODave2


Wasn't he also involved in some crash where he ended up in a spectator enclosure or something...?

Do you mean Rolf Stommelen (Spain '75)?

Lutz

[Doug Nye]

Look in French GPs - Ricard-Castellet...

[Lutz G]

@Doug

Thought of that one too "I was very lucky to survive" Mass after the nasty shunt. He collided with Baldi (290 km/h fast) - went over the barriers...

Lutz

[Seebar]

At the moment, the 2nd Flemish public TV broadcaster has a series with lots of archive footage about famous Belgian sport figures or things which happened in Belgium. Yesterday's show was about Gilles Villeneuve's accident.

At the beginning of the show, they showed some newscasts of May 8th, 1982 ("The Canadian driver is critically injured after...") from around the world. The German news mentions that Villeneuve collided with the East German Jochen Mass.

As far as I know, Mass was from Dorfen, Bavaria and thus in 1982 a West German. Is this an error made by some German journalist in 1982, or did he have the East German nationality? I can't imagine an East German travelling that freely around the world in those days.

[Rob Semmeling]

Excerpt from Chris Nixon's "Kings of the Nürburgring", page 272:

With four victories, two pole positions and two fastest laps in the years 1965-1973 Jackie Stewart established himself as a Ringmeister supreme, but he cheerfully admits that his supremacy took a knock on the odd occasion. One such was the European Touring Car Championship race in July, 1973. "I shared a Ford Capri with Emerson Fittipaldi and we were in the team with Jochen Mass/Dieter Glemser and John Fitzpatrick/Gérard Larousse. I found the Capri was very difficult to drive and I was only fourth fastest in practice with 8 mins 27.5 secs. That was 9 secs quicker than Emerson - and 3 secs slower than Mass! We were on Goodyears and he was on Dunlops and I thought the difference must be due to the tyres because, after all, I knew the Ring pretty well etc, etc. So I insisted on trying our car on Dunlops and I was still 3 secs slower than Mass! He was quicker than me in the Capri and I couldn't do anything about it!"

[zahistorics]

Mass in 1971 ETCC followed by 1971 Sprinbok Series does it for me.

As others have said F1 has been rather unkind to some drivers. In Mass's case it seems like the dreaded assymetric support for drivers in the same team had a big effect.

[Der Pate]

I started watching F1 in 1981...at this time Mass was one of the backmarkers...or average at the best...I didn´t know his driving of the 70s...came to know that years afterwards...

For me he was for a long time the silly driver, who was guilty of the Villeneuve-accident...but with the knowledge of the 70s-races, he must have been a very good driver with very much bad luck...

[ghinzani]

He was originally a merchant seaman which probably gave him a better grounding outside of the sport than many of his contempraries. I recall he remained a keen sailor - I think he broke his leg falling off the mast at one point, and then his beloved yacht sunk at another point - I think he lived on it! The other story that always interests me is the fact he missed the drivers strike at Kyalami in 82 because he was late to the circuit having been staying with friends, and presumably partying a bit too hard and arriving late.

[DAT 3000]

Mass was a good sportcar racer, but he really was kinda lucky to be paired with Jacky Ickx in most of those outings for Porsche. I don't really think he was quite in the top bracket of endurence drivers of that time like Ickx, Bell, Stuck, Bellof, Holbert etc...

[Elford68]

I think Jochen Mass was a good driver but he wasn't so fast as other names at his time, like Hunt, Patrese, Lauda, Schekter, but his driving skills and hisendurance made him one of the best sportscar driver at the times. He wasn't good enough as Ickx or Gregg, but these both are one of the two best sportscars ever.

[Doug Nye]

Gregg? Gregg??? Gregg?????? Are you serious...?

DCN

[fines]

Originally posted by ghinzani
He was originally a merchant seaman which probably gave him a better grounding outside of the sport than many of his contempraries. I recall he remained a keen sailor - I think he broke his leg falling off the mast at one point, and then his beloved yacht sunk at another point - I think he lived on it! The other story that always interests me is the fact he missed the drivers strike at Kyalami in 82 because he was late to the circuit having been staying with friends, and presumably partying a bit too hard and arriving late.

Iirc, Mass was married to a South African lady at the time, and stayed with his in-laws - he simply wasn't aware of the strike forming up in the hotel. And yes, it was a sailing accident that kept him out of F1 in '81. As for him being inferior to Ickx, Bell, Stuck, Bellof, Holbert, Gregg etc. - I don't think so.;)

[Elford68]

I think Peter Gregg was the greatest IMSA driver ever and on of the best at the world endurance scene

[philippe7]

Jochen Mass and Hans Stuck were in my opinion the most talented drivers Germany produced in the 70's - their records in touring cars and F2 speak for themselves - for some reason they never made it "big" in F1 but is that really important ?

[Spitfire]

My only experience in seeing Mass in person, was his troubled effort to qualify the Arrows at The Glen. However, at Goodwood, in maybe 2006, his performance in a Corvette Stingray was thrilling. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone wring the neck of a race car any harder. It was one of those, "I'm gonna win or break" kind of drives.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Elford68
I think Peter Gregg was the greatest IMSA driver ever and on of the best at the world endurance scene

Good enough to earn a significant works drive (and the World Championship results to go with it) a la Ickx, Siffert, Rodriguez, Stuck, Mass, Schumacher?

DCN

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by fines
Iirc, Mass was married to a South African lady at the time, and stayed with his in-laws

Esti Mellet, a former varsity beauty queen. I think she now runs an Interior design company in Cape Town. The last time I saw Jochen driving was also here in the Cape, circa 1986. He drove a VW GTi in a three hour endurance race on that occasion.

[thomaskomm]

Jochen Mass was a very very talented Driver and fast like hell! I ´m a german guy and watched him since his days in Formula supervee 1971 and formula 2 in Hockenheim. I saw him 1973 on the Nürburgring in a formula one car and he was with his Surtees one of the fastest driver. He was always a hell racer on the Nürburgring my ever favourite track.
I don´t know why he didn´t reach the absolute top sucess in F1 but he was in the seventies surely one of the fastest Touringcars Driver. I saw him many times on the Nürburgring and always he was one of the top guys in his Ford Capri!
Thomas

[Andretti Fan]

Not to understate his ability, because obviously Peter Gregg was a pretty good driver, but I think alot of his success can be laid squarely on the shoulders of his frequent co-driver, Hurley Haywood.