17 replies to this topic

[12.9:1]

THE PATTAKON V V A

It Seems to work, though I'd need some time to gain trust in that little push-rod.

The Site is quite informative, including a decent animation.

Also to be found here - a bonus Gizmo ;) bet you haven't thought of this one - at "more to PATTAKON than V V A"

[desmo]

Very interesting.

I am particularly intrigued by the pull piston designs:

[12.9:1]

Is it wrong to love hermaphrodites ?

I like it, Desmo do you see any Achilles heel here?
With Diamond Like Carbon coatings on most - all ? F1 rings doing a brilliant job, I don't see cylinder lubrication as a worry.
That stuff would look good on the "rod" as well !

[desmo]

Originally posted by 12.9:1
Is it wrong to love hermaphrodites ?

I like it, Desmo do you see any Achilles heel here?
With Diamond Like Carbon coatings on most - all ? F1 rings doing a brilliant job, I don't see cylinder lubrication as a worry.
That stuff would look good on the "rod" as well !

Achilles heel? You bet! The piston "stem" seal under full combustion pressure and heat, seems to require a linear motion to have any chance of working. This dictates, I believe, a Scotch Yoke-type connection to the crankshaft which in turn dictates opposed pistons.

[12.9:1]

Originally posted by desmo

Achilles heel? You bet! The piston "stem" seems to require a linear motion to have any chance of working.

I assume you've not noticed the "linear slider" at the crank end of the pull rod.

[desmo]

I bailed pretty fast on the site when a dialog box appeared telling me I needed to download "Vector Graphics Rendering" a ~700k download. I even clicked on the "Download Now" option and was then prompted to insert "my" Windows update CD. Thus I cannot see most of the images on the site. I didn't have the patience to read the text without the illustrations after that.

[manolis]

Originally posted by desmo
I bailed pretty fast on the site when a dialog box appeared telling me I needed to download "Vector Graphics Rendering" a ~700k download. I even clicked on the "Download Now" option and was then prompted to insert "my" Windows update CD. Thus I cannot see most of the images on the site. I didn't have the patience to read the text without the illustrations after that.

It seems youhave an old version of Win 98.
Just download the http://www.pattakon....lve 3 lifts.exe
and then open it. I thing it is the proper animation to get the mechanism.

[Top Fuel F1]

Originally posted by manolis


It seems youhave an old version of Win 98.
Just download the http://www.pattakon....lve 3 lifts.exe
and then open it. I thing it is the proper animation to get the mechanism.

Yes. I'm using Windows 2000 based on NT on a shared T1 connect. It came up in one sec.

[desmo]

Ahaa! Thanks, I see now. It looks like in that animation that the amount of lift is dentented into only three "steps". Wouldn't this be too coarse a range of variability to perform the "throttling" function? BMW's VVL system appears to have no such limitation.

[Aurelio Lampredi]

Originally posted by desmo
Ahaa! Thanks, I see now. It looks like in that animation that the amount of lift is dentented into only three "steps". Wouldn't this be too coarse a range of variability to perform the "throttling" function? BMW's VVL system appears to have no such limitation.

The steps are unlimited... Inthe animation there are only three steps in order to be more understandable. You can easily understand though that between those 3 steps could easily be "enclosed" some "unlimited steps more"...

[alexbiker]

A very interesting site indeed.

As an enthusiastic layman, it seems to me this system has another advantage over the BMW valvetronic, in that it has lesser moving mass, allowing greater revs than valvetronic, which hasn't yet made to M-series engines, possibly for that reason.

However, I notice they do not produce any figures for their test enigne, and talk about CO as "about zero" - I'm not an engineer, but when someone talks of something in the medical world (my field) as "about" the desirable value, I start to worry whose definition of "about" we're using.

Also, their data shows that the engine revs higher - would that not be expected anyway, converting a creaky single cam to a new double cam system?

Alex

[manolis]

Originally posted by desmo
Ahaa! Thanks, I see now. It looks like in that animation that the amount of lift is dentented into only three "steps". Wouldn't this be too coarse a range of variability to perform the "throttling" function? BMW's VVL system appears to have no such limitation.

If the shown 3 different lifts become six, then the size of the file to download - and the necessary time - becomes double. So it was necessary to select some indicative lifts (high lift, medium lift and very small lift) in order to be the mechanism understood.
The mechanism is a continuously (stepless, or infinite step) variable valve lift from zero lift to a maximum lift, and at the same time it manages the actual overlap of the engine.
Thanks

[manolis]

Originally posted by alexbiker
A very interesting site indeed.

As an enthusiastic ... new double cam system?

Alex

Let me answer in medical terms:
Suppose you just turned the starter key of your car in a cold morning. What is the use of having a catalyst or not? Until it gets hot enough to begin functioning, the emissions of your car are far from acceptable. Your lungs and children and infants lugs will take a dose of aromatic hydrocarbons and monoxide. What makes this system is to chew the incoming mixture to make it mincemeat as it forces it to pass through about 0.2 mm valve opening. You know how much better a stomach operates when the teeth have made their duty.

Acceptable values of Carbon Monoxide in the exhaust gas of non catalytic cars is less than 3.0 % per volume, with the engine normally warmed up. The Renault Energy 1.4 conventional engine has officially metered to 1.8%. The same engine with the new system install has officially metered to 0.05%, which is ABOUT six times less than the limit of cars with catalytic converter.
We privately did the same measurement with a CO analyzer, and the result was less than 0.1% with the engine completely cold. On the road we made a lot of times the measurement with light and heavy loads and the values were well bellow 0.1 %, so we define them as ‘about zero’.
When the first (and still unique and hand finished) prototype of a new design is proved capable of producing more than 30 times less CO than the original engine and about sixty times less than present limit, isn’t that enough?

As your field is in medical world, did you achieve the stereoscopic view, the flying diamonds?

Thank you for your time. We would appreciate your further questions and objections, as well your assistance on making the system known to your Medical Society.

[JwS]

Interesting idea, looks promising. Havent checked out the animation yet.
But did you look at the pics of the running engine? Those guys need a decent machinist or something, linkages and stuff look scary. (but I guess they work, and that is something)
JwS

[12.9:1]

Manolis,

I,ve long felt that the 2C engine would be the ultimate evolution of the reciprocating piston engine, though several problem areas needed break-throughs.

Along these lines I've thought the hermaphrodite - combination of inlet ports and poppet valve ex. was very close - with two problems, one, the added cost and inefficiency of the mechanical scavenge blower, and two, crankcase oil finding it's way into the chamber via the inlet ports.

Problem one - solved by the Electrically boosted Turbocharger where an electic motor spins up the turbo for starting, also boosting low speed torque, and eliminating nearly all lag, then becomes the vehicles alternator! (at this pdf, first picture on page 9)

Yes I know your design provides simple and effective compression scavenging, but the ability of the turbo to capture and return exhaust energy can not be overlooked when the-ultimate, is the gole.

Problem, two is solved - by turning the world upside down! congratulations !
The Pulling Piston Engine eliminates oil control problems almost entirely, the pullrod should be fairly easy to seal, especially with the new low friction coatings.

I don't see any photographs of the Pulling Piston Engine, does one exist? I see some parts, but they look like a Scotch Yoke-type arrangement ?

So while your V V A has immediate relevance, the future (in my opinion) is with the Two Cycle

[Korr]

Where did you find information and that picture of the pull piston engine, Desmo?

[Korr]

Nevermind, I found it.

[alexbiker]

manolis,

easy! they were a couple of questions I wanted answered, I was not implying the thing didn't work at all - it's just that there is a lot of snake oil around. With the more detailed information you just gave me, it would appear that this isn't it.

Thanks,

Alex