22 replies to this topic

[slipstream]

Watching the 1993 S. African GP on Speed Vision last night I was surprised how fast The Williams FW15C was through the Corners. While it is clear that the current F1 Cars are much quicker in a straight line I would think the FW15C with its slick Tires, Active Suspension , and its wide Track would be just quick in the corners and Braking as the Current F1 Cars or I am wrong ? Just how would the FW15C Compare to the F1 Cars of Today ?

[desmo]

Peter Wright's book "Technical F1" has an interesting "g-g-V" diagram showing the comparitive performance envelopes of representitive F1 cars from the Mercedes W196 through the Ferrari F300.

Here's a brief quote:

"The largest "g-g-V" envelope occurred around 1984 [FW16] and has been held to approximately these dimensions since. How much larger it would have been if the peaks in power, downforce, and tire grip had coincided is academic. In spite of the envelope no longer expanding, F1 cars become faster every year. The reason for this is the driver's ability to use more of the available envelope. Back in the late 1980s, when the cars had more than 1200 bhp for qualifying, combined with unrefined flat bottoms that exhibited such high pitch sensitivity that they required 2000+ lb/in. springs, and tires generating a coefficient of friction of 2.2, the Technical Director of Ferrariwas heard to mutter, "I wish drivers would stop complaining about the cars. If they think these monsters are ever going to be nice to drive, they are wrong!"

[alexbiker]

Well, until this year, Monaco is the one circuit that has remained almost unchanged, and it's practically the highest downforce, twistiest circuit there is.

A quick look in FORIX for the fastest qualifying might be revealing. Qualifying negates the effects that the introduction of refuelling will have had on race lap times, and is often seen (at least by Martin Brundle and me) as the purest measure of absolute pace, until this year.

2002 - Juan-Pablo Montoya - 1'16.676 - TC re-introduced!
2001 - David Coulthard - 1'17.430
2000 - Michael Schumacher - 1'19.475
1999 - Mika Hakkinen - 1'20.547
1998 - Mika Hakkinen - 1'19.798 - Narrow cars and grooved tires
1997 - H-H Frentzen - 1'18.216
1996 - Michael Schumacher - 1'20.356
1995 - Damon Hill - 1'21.952
1994 - Michael Schumacher 1'18.560
1993 - Alain Prost - 1'20.557 - Williams FW15C - with active ride, TC, ABS, full auto shifting
. . . . .
1984 - Alain Prost - 1'22.661

Two striking things - Alain Prost, whilst not a great team manager, was certainly a great driver, with pole positions ten years apart - he got it in 1983 too. Truly outsanding.

Whilst I admit many confounders, I would contend that this is the best estimation available. So the peak G forces did not equate to quicker cars, and neither did all the electronics. Either modern cars are very quick between the corners, or the old ones just weren't as quick as we remember.

I would postulate tire development as a main feature, since even before TC was re-introduced, the pole time was 0.8 sec slower with slicks and wide cars, than DC's time in 2001. The regressivists at the FIA may like to take note of this.

Alex

[Pioneer]

According to Forix, there were changes to Monaco in 1997, 1998, 2000, and this year. So those numbers may not be particularly meaningful.

From 1986-1996 the circuit was unchanged.

[alexbiker]

As I said, almost unchanged. The changes have been worth tenths at most until now, and as you can see, there is a steady downward progression of lap times, halted and reset by regulation changes - elimination of flat bottoms after '84, raising of ride height and frong wing reduction after Senna's death in 1994, grooved tires and narrow tracks in '98.

Basically, the cars get faster every year, and only regulations hold them back. I would postulate that whilst tires, downforce, and power all peaked separately, the package (tip 'o the hat to Ronspeak) is the fastest it's ever been - that's what counts.

Alex

[Ali_G]

If anything the tyres have peaked at the moment. I would bet that todays grooved tyres have more grip than any slick tyre in the past.

ANother thing; I really don't understand how Williams were faster at Monaco in 94 than in 93. Was it raining in 93, cause between the 2 years the cars lost both TC and Active Suspension and the 94 Williams was supposed to be a dog.

Niall

[slipstream]

The best track to compare lap times is Mangy-Cours in France which did not change from 1992 thru 2002. The pole time for the 1993 French GP was 1:14.3 by Damon Hill in the FW15C . In 1992 Nigel Mansell went even quicker with a time of 1:13.8 . In 2002 JPM was the quickest at 1:11.9 . The FW15C was only 3 seconds a lap slower than JPM Wlilliams BMW, which is very good for a 10 year old car. I do not know much about Mangy-Cours, is it a track that favors Traction, Braking, or high corner speed ?

[alexbiker]

It may be the best track to compare lap times, but the original question was about cornering speed, and I chose Monaco as the best factor for this - it's basically all corners, witht he highest downforce settings.

Alex

[Pioneer]

Monaco may have the highest downforce settings, but its such a low speed track that aerodynamics are largely ineffective there. They crank the downforce up looking for an edge, but a fast Monaco lap is largely about mechanical grip. I would think a track with some high speed corners would reveal more about the difference in cornering speeds between cars of different years.

[random]

What about Hungary? I seem to recall in delving through Forix one evening that it was the track to undergo the fewest revisions for the longest time. It's also pretty slow and twisty like Monaco, without the lottery of weather and street grime. The weather is alwasy hot, dry and dusty at Hungary, at least in my recolection. Also, don't discount Monaco's street grime, the oil put down by automobiles on city streets can be randomly diabolical, especially with the slightest hint of rain.

Also, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on TC, my feeling is that it may have improved over the years but it never left the sport.

[Fritz]

Looking for overall performance, I would think of Spa and Suzuka. Both mechanical and aerodynamic grip levels are important there. Sadly, there were a lot of changes to the Spa circuit, but Suzuka has remained unchanged, isn't it?

[Aubwi]

I don't think Montreal changed much from the 70's until 2001, all they did was move the S/F line.

[Double Apex]

To Fritz:

The last of the S curves (dunlop curve) has changed a while ago...

To Aubwi:

There has been a teporary chicane on the back straight (between the hairpin and the chicane prior to start/finish) on several occasions.

And in general: most of the time, there are small modifications to any track each year, like a different kerb or something. And a total resurfacing of a track can make a big difference to lap times as well!

So it´s always hard to compare.

Hell, can´t they just yank one of those old FW 15C´s out of a museum and arrange a head to head on the friday of a GP weekend?

[random]

Originally posted by Aubwi
I don't think Montreal changed much from the 70's until 2001, all they did was move the S/F line.

Montreal had a huge change in the '90s when they reprofiled the entrance to the start-finish straight (the final corner on the track). Now it's a corner, heavy braking, then right then left. Previously it was just a kink. The drivers just sort of threw the car through the kink without much if any braking. Jackie Stewart thought it was the most daunting corner in F1, as it was really fast and if you got it wrong you were into a wall.

And as Double Apex pointed out, in the post '94 safety reaction, they put chicanes on the basin straight for a few years until that final corner was reprofiled.

For those who are interested, Forix lists the years tracks have changed. I think Hungary has been the most stable, perhaps until last year.

[Ross Stonefeld]

What happened to Hungary?


And on the opposite note Silverstone has been one of the most modified

[random]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
What happened to Hungary?

I don't recall exactly, but I believe some of the corners were changed in a small way, curbing and such. Of course, now Hungary is due for "very" major change, they're lengthening the front straight half again.

[Ben]

There was a chicane on the straight up towards the top of the circuit. They removed it to leave the straight.

It's the point on the circuit where Villeneuve got past Hill on the last lap in 1997.

Ben

[Ross Stonefeld]

mmm

What year was that removed? I cant recall any race from Hungary with that extra chicane (going back to 94)


At any rate, are any comparisons valid with the repaving and rekerbing of various tracks, even if no profile change? Imagine the lap times at Imola if it had flat smooth kerbing instead of the sidewalk.

[random]

I don't remember any chicanes at Hungary either.

[dolomite]

Originally posted by random
I don't remember any chicanes at Hungary either.

Wasn't it removed after the first race in '86?

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by dolomite

Wasn't it removed after the first race in '86?

Nope, there was some sort of chicane at the beginning of the back straight (after T3), but it was removed after '88, so it´s been there for 3 years.

[YKTS]

Originally posted by random
I don't remember any chicanes at Hungary either.

iirc, recall seeing a chicane on the back uphill in some european truck racing season reviews, 89 i think you cans ee it, and again iirc in the 87 review the trucks are actually using it. havnt got the videos here with me so is hard to check, but will definately have a look when im bac at my folks

[masterhit]

Originally posted by slipstream
Watching the 1993 S. African GP on Speed Vision last night I was surprised how fast The Williams FW15C was through the Corners. While it is clear that the current F1 Cars are much quicker in a straight line I would think the FW15C with its slick Tires, Active Suspension , and its wide Track would be just quick in the corners and Braking as the Current F1 Cars or I am wrong ? Just how would the FW15C Compare to the F1 Cars of Today ?

It may even be due to video formats, different formats use different framerates etc. The video footage you watch may have gone through various conversions by the time you see it, each with their own pros and cons, some are good for tracking shots, others are not etc.

The other things which spring to mind - the FW15C was on slick, ungrooved tyres. Slicks have a very different cornering capability.

The FW15C'S relative lack of downforce and less advanced traction control would also make it more impressive looking throughout the corner.

Plus Monsieur Prost was very special, and the South African circuit had some interesting corners.

The FW15C would get blown away today of course.