19 replies to this topic

[MattC]

Quote from pistonheads.com:

"Group B rally cars had performance comparable to Formula One cars of the same era.

In the 1986 season Henri Toivonen lapped the Estoril circuit in a Lancia Delta S4 during the Portuguese rally. His fastest lap would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season."

At first, this sounds completely ridiculous.
However, I dunno what kind of regs F1 had in 1986. I think the rally cars had around 6-700bhp, but they may have been very very light (they had spaceframes and stuff, and weren't famous for their crash-protection). And maybe the GP qualifying was wet that year!?
Does anyone know enough about the the regs in the two classes to comment on this?

[Darren Galpin]

The twistier the circuit, the closer the rally car would have been. Both F1 and Group-B rally cars had turbo-charged engines. Group-B rally cars had metal-tubular frames with plastic body panels coupled with a 4WD system, so were light and had good grip. The problem was that the lightness meant that they weren't that crash resistant, and there were some very serious accidents (Vatanen in Argentina, Toivonen's fatal accident).

In '86, Senna qualified in 1:16.673 at 204.244kph (126.9 mph). Still sounds a touch fast for a Group B Rally car.

Given that modern WRC cars can go faster than Group B cars (given their relative performance in British Rallycross, or in the BTRDA rally series where modern WRC cars compete against Group B Metro 6R4's), at what speed do they lap Estoril? They should be similar in speed to what a Group B car has achieved.

[Huw Jenjin]

The formula 1 cars of the time were limited to one and a half litres turbocharged, and probably some weight minimum, but I dont think the rally cars were limited by capacity, however the weight would have to have been substantially higher( both physically and numerically). The Lancia was supercharged and turbocharged and intercooled, and had the traction benefit of four wheel drive and torque split control. I think I can believe the statement you heard, on that basis.

[404KF2]

I don't think the Delta S4 had 700+ HP - it was likely in the high 400s. The last evolution of the 205 Turbo 16 WRC championship winning car (1985 and 1986)had "only" around 450 HP. Peugeot kicked Lancia's butt in 1986 with the 205.

WRC cars these days are limited to 300 HP or thereabouts.

I'm also not convinced about the Group B cars being flimsy - the 205 T 16 that Vatanen/Harryman crashed in Argentina held together rather well considering it rolled multiple times while traveling over 200 km/h. The Toivonen/Cresta fatal crash in Corsica would likely not have been survivable in a modern WRC car. The Group B's were banned for the same reason as the 5 litre sports cars in 1973 - it was an over-reaction.

Group B cars and modern WRC cars are fast, but I'd be surprised if they were as fast as an F1 car around a circuit. I don't think any rally car can corner much above 1.5 or 2 g.

[MattC]

Originally posted by 404KF2
I don't think the Delta S4 had 700+ HP - it was likely in the high 400s.

The same article I quoted from rated the RS200 Evo at 650+ bhp (from 2.1 litres!).
( http://www.pistonhea...tones/rs200.htm )

Either way, I'm getting more confident of my initial incredulous reaction.
Didn't the Turbo F1 cars do 'well over 1000bhp' in qualifying trim?[p][Edited by MattC on 06-14-2000]

[404KF2]

Wow, if the RS200 really had 650 HP, it sure didn't show in the results. To be fair, it was introduced in 1986, but still, Peugeot ate Ford and Lancia for dinner in 1986, the last year of Group B. With a wimpy 450-500 HP!

[Ray Bell]

Any advantage these cars had on any circuits, and it would be limited to tight circuits, would have come from 4WD traction. In tight corners it might be that having the centre of gravity a little higher might have actually helped, this being the experience of some and explained in - was it in C & D or R & T or SCG? - an article about building a Toronado for Pikes Peak.
Now, there's a contest, would anyone like to pit their mid-eighties turbo GP car against a Peugeot 405 rally special up Pikes Peak?
They'd be brave indeed!

[William Dale Jr]

I've just been reading an article
in Autosport on the Peugeot 205 T16.
The power is quoted as 360bhp, and
the spaceframe chassis weighed in at
135kg. I wonder what the dry weight
of the car was, but whatever it was,
it would be pretty light, and the power
to weight ratio would be terrific!
I've got a video of the last Group B
Rally in Europe (the 1986 RAC), and
the cars sound awesome. Markku Alen
raced his Lancia at the Thunderdrome
at the Autosport Show this year, and
most of the Ford RS200's and Metro
6R4's and Audi Quattro's found their
way into Rallycross, with pilots like
Martin Schkenke and ex-BTCC driver
Tommy Rustad at the wheel.

[Alfisti]

I always thought the Audi and Ford RS2000 were around 600HP.... i'm near sure of it.

Modern WRC cars are great because HP has been limited so they build for torque......those little buggers have more torque than a 5 litre touring car....amazing. Torque is good.

What about the Pike's Peak Suzuki... what's it called... Escudo or something... near a 1000Hp i think.. savage.

[404KF2]

WDJr,

The kerb weight of the 205 T16 was 910 kg in 1985 Tour de Corse specification. The HP was 424 BHP @ 7500 rpm and 362 lb-ft @ 5500 rpm.

Undoubtedly the power went up and the weight went down during the 1986 evolutions of this car.

The 205 T16 engine was never rated at 360 HP - it jumped straight from 345 to 424.

Speaking of Pike's Peak, Peugeot built a rather nice 405 T16 with 4WS and near enough to 1000 HP for 1989/90. It held the record for a while (does it still?).[p][Edited by 404KF2 on 06-15-2000]

[William Dale Jr]

Is that 405 T16 you mention the
one that appears in the film
"Climb Dance"?
I doubt the record still stands,
because blokes like Rod Millen
in his Toyota Tacoma truck (and
his previous Celica) have been
close to breaking the 10 minute
barrier, which I don't think has
been done before.
Please feel free to correct me.[p][Edited by William Dale Jr on 06-18-2000]

[Alfisti]

What car is in the GREAT.. truely GREAT PP hill climb footage from a few years back?? It was a white car with a little blue... so it might have been a Pug...

[Ray Bell]

Indeed, that was "Climb Dance." Darryl Eastlake once said it was the most requested bit of tape they ever played.

[KzKiwi]

At the height of Pikes Peak car development was a trio of twin engined rally cars with manufacturers backing - memory suggests Suzuki, Audi and the other from Citroen. I think it was Vatanen who volunterred his services and his anatomy to steer the Citroen, with the Suzuki driven by 'Monster' Tajima. Was the Audi piloted by Blomqvist or Rorhl? Can anyone confirm further details on any of the above?

These cars were built in an attempt to break the 10 minute barrier at PP but did not succeed due to dodgy weather, etc. AFAIK Rod Millen still holds the record at 10 minutes 04 seconds, or something similar.

Regardless of the outcome they certainly would have been beasts to tame.

[Marco94]

As far as I remember, Audi was the first to go to Pike's Peak with a Quatro Sport S1, the ugly one with HUGE spoilers. I thought Walter Rohrl drove this thing. After that, I think Peugeot was next with a 405 T16, also with big spoilers. Both these cars had about 550-600 HP. Rod Millen then used an old IMSA Toyota engine with 800 HP and 4WD of course for his drives.

The power for Group B cars was 500 HP for Audi, and 400 to 450 for the rest. Later especcially the Ford RS200 became a very popular Rally Cross car. Those versions did put out 650 HP, but were never used in the World rally championship. The Ford came to late. It would have been an absolute succes! Compare it to Adrian Newey's 300 HP Lotus Elise and then more power and 4WD.

Marco.

[Huw Jenjin]

The rally cars were built and tuned for durability, but were still pretty lightweight in the scheme of things, but no less strong than they needed to be.
The point is, particularly with Turbo engines, the output could be exactly what the engineer wanted it to be to suit each event. I thought Cosworth Sierra RS500s were called that because that was the HP that they could develop, and the Rallycross and racing examples of that engine could pull that power with ease.
Given the right circuit I think it is quite possible that a rally car could match an F1 car, may be not one in qualifying trim.
As for an F1 car on Pikes peak, i would guess that the first 100 yds would take care of the F1 car!

[Don Capps]

Speaking of Pikes Peak, that is where I was all of last week, Colorado Springs for a conference. Believe me, it was tough duty...

Ray, it was SCG (mid-1966? I'll have to check) that did the article on the PP Toronado.

As to the Class B's being so quick, I wouldn't doubt it for a minute. Personally, I thought that they were scary as hell and pocket bombs waiting to take out a small village -- which meant that I really like them except for the fact that they were doing 200+ kmph with idiots standing on both sides (make that ON the road in some cases) of the road!!!!!

I am sure that one of the cars did cut some rapid laps at Estoril, and if not sixth on the grid, probably fast enough to make the grid.[p][Edited by Don Capps on 06-22-2000]

[BT52]

At Goodwood group B rally cars compete head to head with F1 cars old and new as well as modern rally cars.

Even with Michelle Mouton thrashing the Quattro sport SWB she couldn't hope to live with Richard Burn's Subaru with FAR less power.

And in turn Richard burns was over 10 SECONDS slower up the hill than Heidfeld in a McLaren. That much time lost in a run which took less than a minute....
Even Marc Surer in an old F2 car beat ALL the rally cars.

A hillclimb is hardly an F1 car's territory, so you would expect a rally car to have a good chance, but in reality they are a WORLD away, and in reality a groupB rally car even with all it's power wouldn't see which way a current WRC car went...

[Hellenic tifosi]

I think that the main point where the modern WRC cars are better than the Group B ones is traction, as they have active differentials and less power. However, Estoril (as every F1 track) has excellent surface which would make the rally car handle reasonbly well. So, that's why the Group B was able to record such a good time. At every forest road or slippery surface however, any WRC would simply outclass the "monster"

[Huw Jenjin]

Gee thats amazing about goodwood. Does anybody have the times?
What is the hillclimb course like, smooth and fast, or tight and bumpy?
Does anybody have 0-100 or 0-60 times for a modern GP car, and a rally car?