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Martin engines


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#1 David T.

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 06:51

I know that some Sports cars of the 60s and the 70s (like the Deep-Sanderson or some Darens) were equipped with 3 litre Martin engines. Who built them? Which were their main characteristics? Thanks in advance for your help! ;)

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#2 David Beard

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 07:17

Have a look at this thread....

http://www.atlasf1.c...ight=ted martin

#3 TEJ

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 23:11

Ted Martin was a British engine tuner in the 1950s Formula Junior era. His firm specialized in preparation of Ford 109E based motors. Martin was a contemporary of firms like Holbay and Cosworth. Martin also designed a SOHC 3 valve cylinder head for Ford four cylinder motors.

By 1960, Martin somehow moved to St. Catherines Ontario in Canada where he was employed by General Motors. During his period in Canada, Martin designed the Martin V8 intended for the coming 3 litre Formula 1. He appeared to follow the same design evolution as Cosworth did with the DFV. First develop the production motors, then design a replacement OHC head, then design a V8 block to accept a pair of the heads.

Eventually Martin returned to the UK and had some engines manufactured.

The Martin V8 would have competed against the 3 litre Repco GM based engine which had similar specs (V8, SOHC etc). As far as I know the engine never competed in a F1 race, I don't know why.

The Canadian Motorsport Hall of Fame has (had?) one on loan for display earlier this year. Unfortunately they don't have an example of the other "Canadian" F1 motor, the Pratt & Whitney PT6A gas turbine (that actually did races) as used in the Lotus 56B and a couple of Indy cars

#4 Macca

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 15:45

The Lucas-Martin was a modded Lotus 35 Formula 2 which came third at Mallory in the rain on Boxing Day 1966 driven by Roy Pike, and was then entered for the Race of Champions driven by Piers Courage. It was quite slow in practise and then bent a rocker while the engine was being warmed-up on race morning and non-started. Courage then crashed it while testing at Snetterton, and Lucas seized the excuse to drop it to concentrate on manufacturing F3 Titans; it was said to have been written-off but was offered for sale by J. A. Pearce Motors (ironically) about a year later.

Chris Lawrence was contracted by Frenchman Jean Tastevin to design the prototype of the Monica sportscar (named after Tastevin's wife) and called in Ted Martin to supply engines, but his 3-litre F1 engine had to be reduced to 2.8-litres to meet French road tax breaks which were based on capacity, and was then short of power; in the end only the prototypes had the Lawrence body and the Martin engine.

Lawrence kept marketing the 3-litre Martins with adverts in Autosport, and sold a couple to special saloon racers, and used one in his own Deep Sanderson sports-prototype which ran in the Nurburgring 1000k in 1969. The early prototype V8 engines had been of 2-litre capacity and at least one was used in sportscar racing in the USA.

I still have my original programmes from the 1967 Race of Champions and International Trophy; the two Pearce-Martins were down to be driven at Brands by Tony Lanfranchi and A N Other, and at Silverstone by Robin Darlington (I think - I'm doing this from memory at work) and an American sportscar driver named Earl Jones.

There were quite a few pictures of the original Pearce F1 car in at the 1967 Racing Car Show in Motor Racing, Road & Track, and Motor magazines, but the only photo of the second car running that I have seen was in Doug Nye's article about Ted Martin in Motor Racing in June or July 1967. If it was a different chassis to the prototype at the show, it must have been fittedwith the same body panels. Perhaps Doug can throw some more light on it, or even dig into his photo archives?

Here's a link to a picture of the Monica version of the engine:

http://139.81.140.16...onicaproto4.jpg

Paul Mackness

#5 BRG

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 16:36

IIRC there is a famous photo of a Martin V8 engined Ford Escort Mk 1 special saloon racer with a piston heading skywards through a hole in the bonnet - taken at Brands Hatch (?) in the mid '70s. Can anyone find that shot?

#6 marat

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 10:23

The story of the Monica with Martin engine is a bit longer that what Paul has posted.
The original project was a sports car fitted with the 2,6-l Triumph TR4 engine that Chris Lawrence
had on the London Racing Car Show in 1967.
But after a further meeting between M. Tastevin and Chris Lawrence, it was decided not to use
the TR4 engine, but to built a more ambitious car with the Martin engine enlarged to 3,5-litres.
The Paris Show car in 1972 had the V8 Martin engine.
In spring 1973, at the Geneva Show, the car was fitted with the Chrysler engine which could
accept an automatical gearbox and was easier to service than the Martin engine.

#7 willga

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 15:16

Originally posted by Macca
The Lucas-Martin was a modded Lotus 35 Formula 2 which came third at Mallory in the rain on Boxing Day 1966 driven by Roy Pike, and was then entered for the Race of Champions driven by Piers Courage. It was quite slow in practise and then bent a rocker while the engine was being warmed-up on race morning and non-started. Courage then crashed it while testing at Snetterton, and Lucas seized the excuse to drop it to concentrate on manufacturing F3 Titans; it was said to have been written-off but was offered for sale by J. A. Pearce Motors (ironically) about a year later.


Does anyone have any pictures of the Lucas-Martin?

#8 Sharman

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 10:46

[QUOTE]Originally posted by marat
[
[QUOTE]The original project was a sports car fitted with the 2,6-l Triumph TR4 engine [/QUOTE]



I don't think that the Vanguard block will go that far

#9 Dutchy

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 12:06

Originally posted by BRG
IIRC there is a famous photo of a Martin V8 engined Ford Escort Mk 1 special saloon racer with a piston heading skywards through a hole in the bonnet - taken at Brands Hatch (?) in the mid '70s. Can anyone find that shot?


A near neighbour of mine, Hal Danby, used to race a Martin engined Escort. Could this be the same car?

JH

#10 Macca

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 15:17

Originally posted by willga


Does anyone have any pictures of the Lucas-Martin?


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(Mallory, 26-12-1966, Roy Pike.)

There's also a picture in the Piers Courage biog of him practising it at Brands for the Race of Champions in March 1967, by which time the monocoque sides had been painted and it had acquired an engine cover.

Paul M

#11 David Beard

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 06:14

The Lotus 35 Martin at Oulton Park on Monday. I'm really annoyed I didn't look over it in the paddock, but I didn't realise what I was snapping until I got home


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Edited by David Beard, 01 September 2011 - 07:27.


#12 Giraffe

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 07:03

The Lotus 35 Martin at Oulton Park on Monday. I'm really annoyed I didn't look over it in the paddock, but I didn't realise what I was snapping unitil I got home


You really should get out more, David! The affable Allan Rennie as been running it regularily for a couple of seasons now at HSCC meetings. At the Gold Cup, Coventry-Climax guru Tony Mantle was assisting Allan with the set-up which certainly improved the handling. It's a pity tho' that the HSCC has now decided it should run in the Derek Bell series rather than in Classic Racing Cars.


http://www.lotus35ma....com/index.html

#13 arttidesco

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 15:28

The Lotus 35 Martin at Oulton Park on Monday. I'm really annoyed I didn't look over it in the paddock, but I didn't realise what I was snapping until I got home


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Ditto had no idea what I was looking at but fortunately took a few snaps of it with the bodywork off, this is the only one I have on my laptop more to follow when I get home.

#14 andyrp26

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 21:29

Oddly enough i took these shots at the Walter Hayes Trophy meeting never having any knowledge of the car,i knew the engine was unusual and neat.I can see a couple of differences since 2010, the rocker covers have become black and the exhaust primaries are coated.There seems to be some sort of fabrication hanging over the carbs in the Oulton shot? :cool:

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#15 Giraffe

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 05:51

IIRC when the car made it's Silverstone debut, TNFer Macca introduced me to Allan Rennie. Macca had also produced a model of the car for the occasion which sat perched on the front of the Lotus in the garage. I'm not sure if I took a pic or not, but I fell certain you must have done so, Macca? :cat:

Edited by Giraffe, 02 September 2011 - 10:35.


#16 Macca

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 10:23

http://forums.autosp...w...80&start=80

http://forums.autosp...w...74730&st=40

Paul M

#17 petestenning

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 20:11

Brian Cutting had a Martin engined Escort entered by F English , Bournemouth i believe in the 70 'S.

#18 rwills

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 11:54

There was a Martin engine fitted to my old Daren Mk2 sports car. David Sewell who worked with the Darens in period said the block was so porous it used more water than fuel and they never got it to work properly. Sadly David died recently in a plane crash in Nigeria.


#19 kayemod

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 18:28

Brian Cutting had a Martin engined Escort entered by F English , Bournemouth i believe in the 70 'S.


There's a strange connection (of sorts) here. F English Bournemouth was owned by Col. Ronnie Hoare, who was also the owner of Maranello Concessionaires. Colonel Ron had the most magnificent railway layout I've ever seen, I never got a proper viewing from the man himself, but buying a new Ford Capri from them got me into the building. Apparently he was fond of turning off the lights, whereupon all the coaches and everything else on the layout lit up. It all completely filled a large purpose-built wooden building behind the pumps on the F English forecourt, and when a dodgy financial situation meant that their bank forced F E to sell their site to Tesco and move their whole setup to a nearby industrial estate, Colonel Ron bought an empty factory unit, and transported all his model trains there. Ted Martin on the other hand had an astonishing collection of proper passenger-hauling steam locomotives, most of them built by him, that ran around his house and huge garden somewhere near the M4, tunnels, cuttings, brick-built stations and engine shed, the lot, no idea what has happened to it, but it must have been worth millions, it certainly cost him that to build. This all featured in Ted's obituary in The Times when he died a year or so ago. One of my friends, the also sadly late Phil Smith was 'best mates' with Ted, I never got to see Ted's trains in all their splendour, but Phil had an excellent photo album that he often showed me, believe me they were really quite something to behold. No idea if Ted and the Colonel ever met, but they'd certainly have had plenty of interests in common to chat about, and not just racing cars and engines either.


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#20 Dutchy

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:50

Brian Cutting had a Martin engined Escort entered by F English , Bournemouth i believe in the 70 'S.


I wonder if that was the same car as Hal Danby had. He also died recently I'm sad to say.

#21 Macca

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 13:07

When I worked in Bournemouth about 10 years ago and had a Ford company car, it was serviced at an F.English garage in an old building near the corner of Palmerston Road with Christchurch Road in Boscombe, which was sold and redeveloped as a supermarket some years ago - would that have been the same one mentioned or were there several branches?

Neil Corner is another racer who built a model railway layout, mostly after he retired from racing in 1990, and with rolling-stock that he hand-built from scratch.

There are some pictures of Ted Martin's garden railway here , and an article about his involvement with model aero engines here (the motor-racing parts of the latter article are confused, but I've e-mailed them with corrections!)

Paul M

edit: page 7 of this has some more about Ted's railway.

Edited by Macca, 05 September 2011 - 13:15.


#22 kayemod

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 15:06

When I worked in Bournemouth about 10 years ago and had a Ford company car, it was serviced at an F.English garage in an old building near the corner of Palmerston Road with Christchurch Road in Boscombe, which was sold and redeveloped as a supermarket some years ago - would that have been the same one mentioned or were there several branches?

There are some pictures of Ted Martin's garden railway here , and an article about his involvement with model aero engines here (the motor-racing parts of the latter article are confused, but I've e-mailed them with corrections!)

Paul M

edit: page 7 of this has some more about Ted's railway.


No, I'd forgotten about their Boscombe service branch, the one I meant was the main site in Westbourne, now a Tesco supermarket. As you looked from the road, the main showroom was to the left with offices above, the pumps more or less in the middle, with the used cars to the right. There was a high wall behind the pumps, and Colonel Ron's train shed was housed in a large wooden hut behind the wall.

It always amused me a little that F English (Bournemouth) weren't actually in Bournemouth at all, the site was in Poole Road Branksome, and unquestionably in Poole. They always claimed quite wrongly to be in Bournemouth, that was what appeared on all their letterheads and invoices etc, but they were about half a mile on the 'wrong' side of the dividing line. There's an incomprehensible local snobbery among some residents that Bournemouth is somehow 'better' than Poole, which was almost certainly the reason for that rather silly attempt at deception. The strange thing is that Poole has hundreds of years more history than Bournemouth, most of which was still sand dunes when Queen Victoria came to the throne, and almost all of the most desirable local real estate, Sandbanks etc, is in Poole.

On Ted's truly magnificent garden railway, it must be just about the most impressive example of its kind anywhere in the world, and I was told that Ted actually built most of the 7½" gauge steam locos himself. Although I had several invitations, I was never able to visit, and almost all my knowledge came from the late Phil Smith, who died last year within a few days of Ted Martin. Phil was an expert photographer, and had whole albums full of photos of Ted's railway, though I imagine they first met through shared model aero engine interests.

#23 arttidesco

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 16:21

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Pix of the Lotus Martin sans body work I believe the chassis plate reads Unit No 35 / F / 21 Engine No Martin / 100c

Love these trains run by Colonel Ron and Ted Martin :love:

Edited by arttidesco, 06 September 2011 - 16:23.


#24 kayemod

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 17:32

Love these trains run by Colonel Ron and Ted Martin :love:


No idea whether Ted and Colonel Ron ever met, but if they had I'm sure the main topic of conversation would have been trains. Their two layouts were quite different, Ted's was a huge 7½" gauge open air setup, worked almost entirely by steam, and the Colonel's was all electric, I'm pretty sure it was 0 gauge which is about 1¼" between the rails, much smaller than Ted's, though still far larger than the 00 gauge HornbyDublo stuff that many will be more familiar with.



I'm fairly certain that this link shows the layout I saw back in 1981. I was given a quick look by the Ford salesman who'd just handed me the keys of my new Capri 2.0S, which was parked outside. He told me that no-one was normally allowed inside the big shed unless Colonel Ron was there, which wasn't very often, as I think he'd more or less retired by then to live in Hong Kong, where he spent much of his time. I was promised a proper viewing and demo next time Ron visited, but I think the salesman moved away not long afterwards, and that never happened.


#25 Giraffe

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 20:49

Pix of the Lotus Martin sans body work I believe the chassis plate reads Unit No 35 / F / 21 Engine No Martin / 100c


The original car was #35 / F / 19.

#26 arttidesco

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 13:11

Posted Image

Looking into the origins of the Martin V8

I understand a Lotus 24 was also rumoured to have had a Martin V8 fitted by Ted Martin for John Lewis to drive, did this car ever race ?

Were there any other Martin V8 powered single seaters apart from Ted's Lotus 24 and Charles Lucas Lotus 35 ?

Does anyone know how many of the 3 litre Martin V8's were produced ?

I understand there were also one/some 2 litre Martin V8's produced was this part of a planned V8 production programme ?

Relevant answers maybe credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

Edit some questions have been deleted from the original post.

Edited by arttidesco, 11 February 2012 - 16:36.


#27 mariner

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 04:12

I once read a report that I think relate to the Martin engine. Supposedly they are held together with many allen screws. The story claimed that Martin (?) fixed a problem for some bus company who paid him in allen screws!

Sucha strange story it might even be true!

#28 arttidesco

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:52

I once read a report that I think relate to the Martin engine. Supposedly they are held together with many allen screws. The story claimed that Martin (?) fixed a problem for some bus company who paid him in allen screws!

Sucha strange story it might even be true!


I wonder if that was because Ted thought allen screws were more elegant than nuts and bolts or because a couple of pounds of allen screws would be harder for HMRC to tax ? Thanks for that tidbit mariner, there are certainly a few allen screws to be seen on the cam covers of the Martin engine.