18 replies to this topic

[Alan Lewis]

Here's one.

The car with which Mike Hawthorn won the 1958 French Grand Prix was, according to my Sheldon, chassis 0003. The Black Books also record this as being last raced by Ritchie Ginther to second place in the 1960 Italian Grand Prix.

I have a very daft reason for wanting to know where it is now. Does someone have it in their collection somewhere? Or has it gone the way of all metal, perhaps by Enzo's regular habit of recycling into next year's models?

Many thanks,

APL

[Roger Clark]

Were they really the same car? THe 1960 car was different in a number of respects: independent rear suspension, disk brakes, side tanks, engine angled the other way, and could Ginther have reached the pedals in Hawthorn's long-chassis car?

[Alan Lewis]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Were they really the same car? THe 1960 car was different in a number of respects: independent rear suspension, disk brakes, side tanks, engine angled the other way, and could Ginther have reached the pedals in Hawthorn's long-chassis car?

Well, that's the question we often come up against isn't it? It's Grandad's Hammer with its five new handles and three new heads. Sheldon (and indeed Alan Henry's "Ferrari - The Grand Prix Cars", though the source for both could be the same) ascribes them the same chassis number and thus bestows what collectors like to call an "identity".

The answer to my question; "Is the car still around", may well be; "Yes, two of them but the other one's gone", but if so I'd still like to hear it.

APL

[Steve L]

I don't think that there are many original 246 Dinos left, now.

There is the ex-Bamford car (0003?), that used to be raced for the JCB historic "stable" by Willie Green - this is the one now raced (owned?) by Tony Merrick which got shunted up the back by ERA R9B a few years ago! This didn't do the car much good, and certainly didn't help Tony - I think he ended up with dislocated shoulders .

Then there is the ex-Neil Corner "Tasman" spec Dino (0007 from memory) which I believe was the last front engined car to win a Grand Prix in Italy in 1960. After its crash at the Goodwood Revival, it was rebuilt and sold to Tony Smith in the UK.

I believe historic racer Robin Lodge has another Dino - not sure how authentic this one is though, and an italian historic racer has a car built up around an original engine (to F2 spec?).

There may be another original car in a museum in Italy somewhere, too.

[marat]

Some well known bearded Author investigated that matter.
Two cars survived: 0003 first called "the New York show car" and now a genuine original car.
0007 the V12 Tasman car which was converted into a sports car before
being rebuilt for Historic racing in a single-seater form and was then called
the JCB Dino.

A least two other cars were built using more or less original parts but without any real history
reference. The so- called "Facsimile" by DSJ.

[Alan Lewis]

Originally posted by Steve L
...There is the ex-Bamford car (0003?)...

Thanks Steve, I'm not at all surprised that they're a rare breed, such is the way of these things.

Is your suggesting the old JCB car as 0003 a guess, an educated guess, or a "hang on, I'll look it up"?

APL

[Alan Lewis]

Marat! You dived in whilst I was replying to Steve. Thank you also.

Can you expand on your 0003 story, please?

APL

[marat]

Sorry, here a little more.
The 0003 was taken to New York in 1962 by Luigi Chinetti as an exhibition car (for the Henry Ford museum) and stayed in the States in Chinetti's hands until late in the seventies when it was
sold to Anthony Bamford of JCB and completed in David Clarke 's premices in Loughborough
and became the most famous Ferrari in Historic racing.

[marat]

Other details:
Both of the replica were built by David Clarke, one for JCB, a short chassis, which was driven
at some historic races by Stirling Moss.
The other car, a long chassis was built for Albert Obrist who sold it later to John Foulston...

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by marat
0007 the V12 Tasman car which was converted into a sports car before
being rebuilt for Historic racing in a single-seater form and was then called
the JCB Dino.

The V12 car (which, incidentally, was retired from racing before the first Tasman Series) never had any connection with JCB

[Doug Nye]

These cars' story is pretty much detailed in 'Dino - the Little Ferrari' published by Osprey in 1979, ISBN 0-85045-330-5.

Don't make the mistake of believing that any one serial number indicates the self-same car season after season. In fact Ferrari simply shunted on existing serial numbers - and Customs carnets - from one mechanical assembly and structure to what in some cases was a totally different one the following season.

None of the V6 Dino-engined monoposto chassis built 1957-1959 inclusive are known to have survived.

The surviving genuine cars are 1960 Dino 246/60 all-independently suspended serial '0005' which is displayed without body panelling attached in the Biscaretti Museum, Turin.

Then sister 246/60 '0003' - with 222cm wheelbase-length chassis - which was the display car prepared for the New York Show, kept by Chinetti, sold to JCB, later to Albert Obrist, now in a private collection and preserved complete. Part of its Show preparation involved grinding off excess weld and prettyfying the frame. It is, therefore, NOT quite representative of genuine Ferrari racing shop frame quality in period...which was roughish to very rough.

Then sister 246/60 '0007' which was Phil Hill's 232cm long-wheelbase 1960 Italian GP-wining car fitted with 3-litre V12 engine for Pat Hoare, when it was renumbered in the Ferrari customer list as chassis 'F 0788' - reworked in NZ to 'GTO' (bleeeaaagghhh!) form, retrieved by Neil Corner, restored by Crosthwaite & Gardiner with its original body panels, raced by himself and son Nigel Corner, now sold on from the family after Nigel's 'amazing flying man' accident at Goodwood.

Anthony Bamford - more recently Sir Anthony - commissioned Graypaul Motors of Loughborough (David Clarke's company - David being proud owner of the only unmessed about Ferrari 330P4 to survive) to build a small series of Dino 246 replicas using genuine V6 engines, transmissions and other components he had acquired from Maranello's redundant stores. One of these cars survives today with Robin Lodge in the UK, another is the basis of Corrado Cupellini's alleged 'F2' Dino.

Albert Obrist separately commissioned Ferrari restorer Bob Houghton to build him a Dino 246/60 replica for which even the engine and transmission were sourced new. This car survives today in another private collection. I had the happy task of running it in around Goodwood circuit circa 1995-96 and spent a terrific couple of hours winning the Glover Trophy, Belgian GP, Italian GP...you name it. Imagination is a wunnerful thing.

There were three alternative chassis lengths used in the 1960 team cars - the shortest being 216cm as used with the 1500cc Formula 2 V6 engine and driven by Trips at Monaco 1960 (serial '0011') - and the longest being 232cm which was adopted as the standard 2.4-litre Formula 1 configuration.
Study photos of the cars in use during the 1960 season and the difference in wheelbase lengths becomes apparent.

DCN

[Pedro 917]

Originally posted by Steve L :

Then there is the ex-Neil Corner "Tasman" spec Dino (0007 from memory) which I believe was the last front engined car to win a Grand Prix in Italy in 1960. After its crash at the Goodwood Revival, it was rebuilt and sold to Tony Smith in the UK.

Here are 2 pics I took from the rebuilt Ferrari Dino entered by Tony Smith at the Nurburgring Old Timer GP in August 2002 :





And here's another picture I took at the Essen Motor Show in December 1997 of a Dino 246 which was on display as a tribute to Phil Hill. However, I don't know its chassis # :

[Alan Lewis]

I just want to say thanks to everyone; I post a question (is this car still about?), I get the answer (no) and along the way I learn a load of stuff I didn't know before.

This is why TNF exists, long may it continue (and I still want one of the "careless talk" badges).

APL

[aldo]

I've been to the Museo Nazionale dell'Automobile in Turin, yesterday. The Dino Ferrari is on show with a complete body, freshly repaint in gleaming red. I'll investigate if the body is original and restored or a new fitting.

[aldo]

Further to my mail, I confirm that the car at the National Museum in Turin is no. 0005. The body has been built by Ferrari in 2001. It's new, yet it's "original" being a certified replica by the manufacturers.

[Barry Boor]

Although I have no desire to lower the tone of a very interesting and informative thread....

Couldn't they have found a better crash helmet to put on that dummy driver in the above photo? What WERE they thinking????

But doesn't the car look WONDERFUL!!!!

[Pedro 917]

Originally posted by Barry Boor

Couldn't they have found a better crash helmet to put on that dummy driver in the above photo? What WERE they thinking????

I haven't missed an Essen Motor Show in years and it's always good value for your money but the one thing that's bothering me every time is........the dummy !! They have a lot of them and they're coming in different kinds (long hair, moustache.....) always there to spoil a good picture. I wonder sometimes if they do it on purpose.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by aldo
The body has been built by Ferrari in 2001. It's new, yet it's "original" being a certified replica by the manufacturers.

...yes indeed...a certified replica by the ORIGINAL manufacturers...????? Hmm - I wonder who the panel men were, and the name of their direct employer....?????? It would also be interesting to know what material the panels are formed from, and how they were formed????? Hand-beaten, or by use of 'the English wheel'?????

DCN

[Ray Bell]

Am I reading the words of a cynic...

Or does Doug know something he's not (directly) saying?