36 replies to this topic

[zengiman]

Trulli miles ahead of Alonso, Dc up on Kimi and of course the inevitable Ralf a little quicker than JPM..
If you read all the commentaries the last weeks on this BB these would be very unlikely events, especially at a drivers circuit like Monaco.

I am curious how we see this.
Saturday it will be the other way around, the real stars will shine as predicted?
Or is it just a fluke? Trulli and DC the Monaco specialists and JPM unlucky?
Or -God forbid- are we at the BB running behind after hype without using our brains?

Remember Alonso wasn't to good last weekend in Austria. On Fridays, the real speedtest, Trulli has been quicker often. And DC was most of the year quicker than Kimi, just had more bad luck. And the Williams boys are evenly matched in their third season. Is this the voice of reason? That Kimi isn't all that great (yet). That Alonso is maybe nothing more than an over-hyped Briatore product?

[Tank]

Obviously, to be hhhonest, they were all on different fuel loads and had bad tire sets and less preferred treatment and did find good setups and DC/Trulli/Ralf were cheating too.

Next year will be theirs

[HSJ]

Chance may have played a part, but mostly probably experience. Each of the more experienced drivers did better, you might notice. Monaco really rewards experience a lot, mainly setups. Kimi at least wasn't at all happy with his setup. Of course there's little excuse (though track conditions might have varied some), setups are part of the job. But it shouldn't be much of a surprise to see the more experienced get better setups after just one hour of practice (well JT and FA had three hours).

[Group B]

Originally posted by Tank
Obviously, to be hhhonest, they were all on different fuel loads and had bad tire sets and less preferred treatment and did find good setups and DC/Trulli/Ralf were cheating too.

Next year will be theirs

[zengiman]

Oh boy I forgot Jos who got the better of Justin. Not for the first time BTW.

[Tank]

Originally posted by zengiman
Oh boy I forgot Jos who got the better of Justin. Not for the first time BTW.

Not for the first time Jos was better or not for the first time he was forgotten? Anyway there is no grass and no gravel to distract him, so he's got an advantage.

But to add to the topic, the controversy isn't complete as Heidfeld "beat" Frenzen.

[Chris G.]

I look forward to responding to the "When will Ralf be sacked?" threads. Shame we haven't seen any for a while....

[wawawa]

I found it interesting that although the RS-JPM gap was very small, RS sounded satisfied with the setup whereas JPM sounded disappointed. I therefore suspect that JPM has more speed to unlock. I expect he'll do better than Ralf on Saturday, unless differing strategies play a role.

The DC-Kimi gap is huge because Kimi screwed up (again!). He still seems to be too erratic, but there's no doubt that he's good, IMHO. That qual lap in Austria showed that he's got something special - he just needs to become more consistent. I doubt very much that Kimi will ever be labeled an also-ran who was hyped.

Alonso - well, he might be hyped. Really hard to say, though. His one "sterling performance" was Barcelona, but the Ferraris were struggling with their Bstones, the McLarens were nowhere and Trulli was in the gravel, so its hard to say if Alonso's performance was really all that heady.

[Tomerell]

And if you want to find an other excuse for Kimi...
To start as first on the track is not the best position to make a good lap if your car isn't in ideal setup, as Michaels Ferrari had to be when he started as second and made wonders...

On the other hand Kimi's performance wasn't on the same level as in Austria... I hope saturday brings a change to that

[masterhit]

Looking at the qualifying report, HHF blown an engine and laid down oil. This screwed up the times of everyone who ran after him.

For example Webber, being next, acted as track cleaner, having to run on an oil strewn track.

If Webber had posted the same time as in Thurdsay's free practice, when he had run on a circuit free of oil, he would have been second fastest, only 68 thousandths of a second behind Michael Schumacher ....

[role]

Originally posted by wawawa
I found it interesting that although the RS-JPM gap was very small, RS sounded satisfied with the setup whereas JPM sounded disappointed. I therefore suspect that JPM has more speed to unlock. I expect he'll do better than Ralf on Saturday, unless differing strategies play a role.

The DC-Kimi gap is huge because Kimi screwed up (again!). He still seems to be too erratic, but there's no doubt that he's good, IMHO. That qual lap in Austria showed that he's got something special - he just needs to become more consistent. I doubt very much that Kimi will ever be labeled an also-ran who was hyped.

Alonso - well, he might be hyped. Really hard to say, though. His one "sterling performance" was Barcelona, but the Ferraris were struggling with their Bstones, the McLarens were nowhere and Trulli was in the gravel, so its hard to say if Alonso's performance was really all that heady.

Well, I woudl consider that Alonso has had many more "sterling performances" than Barcelona. And I would say that his 3 podiums in 6 races in not the best car of the grid kind of proves it.

Alonso blow it today, he has recognised it and so has everybody, he is 21, he'll learn form this and improve on Saturday. He also blew it on Saturday in Malaysia and was on pole on Saturday. He also blew it in Barcelona and was 3rd on the grid...give him time, give him space, and you'll see.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by HSJ
Chance may have played a part, but mostly probably experience. Each of the more experienced drivers did better, you might notice. Monaco really rewards experience a lot, mainly setups. Kimi at least wasn't at all happy with his setup. Of course there's little excuse (though track conditions might have varied some), setups are part of the job. But it shouldn't be much of a surprise to see the more experienced get better setups after just one hour of practice (well JT and FA had three hours).

Witness what guys like Senna and Schumacher did on their first few trips to Monaco, even against more experienced teammates. Oh, wait, I guess setup didn't matter much back then.

[wawawa]

Originally posted by role
Well, I woudl consider that Alonso has had many more "sterling performances" than Barcelona. And I would say that his 3 podiums in 6 races in not the best car of the grid kind of proves it.

Alonso blow it today, he has recognised it and so has everybody, he is 21, he'll learn form this and improve on Saturday. He also blew it on Saturday in Malaysia and was on pole on Saturday. He also blew it in Barcelona and was 3rd on the grid...give him time, give him space, and you'll see.

Fair enough Alonso's 3 podiums have been excellent, but in each case his team-mate has had problems, making it hard to judge Alonso's true performance. Of course, the fact that Trulli has bad luck/racecraft/whatever is not Alonso's fault, but it really makes it difficult to see how good he is.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by Smooth


Witness what guys like Senna and Schumacher did on their first few trips to Monaco, even against more experienced teammates. Oh, wait, I guess setup didn't matter much back then.

hehe, indeed

Excuses:
Kimi: first out & bad setup
Juan: bad setup
JV: oil & cement dust, change to T-car (his choice according to Willis so why complain Jacques?)
Alonso: blamed car but did hint he was somewhat at fault
Rubens: bad practice

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by wawawa
Fair enough Alonso's 3 podiums have been excellent, but in each case his team-mate has had problems, making it hard to judge Alonso's true performance. Of course, the fact that Trulli has bad luck/racecraft/whatever is not Alonso's fault, but it really makes it difficult to see how good he is.

Three podiums tell me that he's pretty frickin good. End of story.

[wawawa]

Originally posted by KinetiK
Three podiums tell me that he's pretty frickin good. End of story.

Rubens has had 3 podiums in the last 3 races. He's pretty frickin good. But look at his team-mate.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by wawawa
Rubens has had 3 podiums in the last 3 races. He's pretty frickin good. But look at his team-mate.

heh.

[Fastcar]

Originally posted by Chris G.
I look forward to responding to the "When will Ralf be sacked?" threads. Shame we haven't seen any for a while....

Surely he needs to be beaten by Montoya to initiate that ? I mean that's easy right ??

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by wawawa
Rubens has had 3 podiums in the last 3 races. He's pretty frickin good. But look at his team-mate.

overrated!;)

[kismet]

Trulli miles ahead of Alonso, Dc up on Kimi and of course the inevitable Ralf a little quicker than JPM..
If you read all the commentaries the last weeks on this BB these would be very unlikely events, especially at a drivers circuit like Monaco.

That just goes to show how much the members of this board actually know about the stuff they spout. If you treat the pre-Monaco posts with an appropriate fanboy filter, today's outcome is pretty much what you're left with - no real surprises there.

However, it's only Thursday, for God's sake. The glory of outqualifying one's teammate today will promptly fade away the second a driver stuffs his car on the armco on Saturday. Sadly, I don't think any of today's "winners" is incapable of doing exactly that, so maybe we should wait for a couple of days to see who gets the last laugh.

[Tomecek]

Do you really think one lap of each driver can provide you true picture of their driving abilities? I am amused you would be able to fire any driver because he was than his colleauge during one lap in Monaco.

[lukyluke]

Originally posted by wawawa


Alonso - well, he might be hyped. Really hard to say, though. His one "sterling performance" was Barcelona, but the Ferraris were struggling with their Bstones, the McLarens were nowhere and Trulli was in the gravel, so its hard to say if Alonso's performance was really all that heady.

look where´s alonso at the atlas voting championship.
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=57358

2º behind kimi. and he still managed 6th for austria despite a bad qualifying

[wawawa]

Originally posted by lukyluke
look where´s alonso at the atlas voting championship.
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=57358

2º behind kimi. and he still managed 6th for austria despite a bad qualifying

Instead of saying "he might be hyped", I should have said "he might be hyped". I'm not arguing that he is or he isn't. All I'm saying is that its hard to tell whether he's really good or if he's doing a decent job in a very good car.

[Cojayar]

Could someone ask me that?

Who is the youngest F1 driver currently?

Then ask yourself (specially you zengiman that don't stop bashing him) if it's about hype or just quality?

Zengiman, I'll be waiting for you to open a topic on Sunday about the losers again.

[zengiman]

Cojayar, I see where your loyalty lies. Good for you. But what has age to do with it?
Anyway, lets also do a "saturday, losers day'' topic?

And then of course sunday. But first Saturday: Doomsday. But for who?

[lukyluke]

place your bets!
rien ne va plus

[Carsten]

Originally posted by wawawa
I found it interesting that although the RS-JPM gap was very small, RS sounded satisfied with the setup whereas JPM sounded disappointed. I therefore suspect that JPM has more speed to unlock. I expect he'll do better than Ralf on Saturday, unless differing strategies play a role.

Does anyone pay any attention to the fact that Ralf out-qualifies JPM as often as the reverse? And that on average Ralf outqualifies JPM over the entire 2002-2003 seasons.

If you are out-qualified, I suspect you are unlikely to express satisfaction with your set-up, regardless of the reality. Therefore I would not put much stock into JPM sounding disappointed.

Sad that this bulletin board is almost entirely driven by 'hype'.

[wawawa]

Originally posted by Carsten
Does anyone pay any attention to the fact that Ralf out-qualifies JPM as often as the reverse? And that on average Ralf outqualifies JPM over the entire 2002-2003 seasons.

I said "interesting" because its odd to see two team-mates so close to each other in laptimes and yet so different in their perception of the car. Also, while overall JPM and RS are clearly very closely matched over the time you mention, JPM did manage to outqualify by a huge margin last year (0.6 seconds in his second year at this track) so perhaps JPM has the edge over RS at this track.

[umapathypon]

Originally posted by wawawa
I said "interesting" because its odd to see two team-mates so close to each other in laptimes and yet so different in their perception of the car. Also, while overall JPM and RS are clearly very closely matched over the time you mention, JPM did manage to outqualify by a huge margin last year (0.6 seconds in his second year at this track) so perhaps JPM has the edge over RS at this track.

IIRC,Ralf had problems with traffic on his fast lap(seriously) while JPM had a clean run at the end when the times were tumbling.So,i wont read much into it.And JPM was out-qualified by Ralf here by about 0.7 s the first time around.

[role]

Originally posted by Carsten


Does anyone pay any attention to the fact that Ralf out-qualifies JPM as often as the reverse? And that on average Ralf outqualifies JPM over the entire 2002-2003 seasons.

If you are out-qualified, I suspect you are unlikely to express satisfaction with your set-up, regardless of the reality. Therefore I would not put much stock into JPM sounding disappointed.

Sad that this bulletin board is almost entirely driven by 'hype'.

Well, maybe based on the wawawa theory we have to take under consideration that neither Ralf nor Montoya are any good. About Ralf most people have an impression that he is not in the level of his older brother, but his ability to keep Montoya at bay in qual and also on races won may show us that the young Colombian was just a case of too much hype on a moment where the Williams F1 was quite competitive because of the engine.

[role]

Originally posted by wawawa
Fair enough Alonso's 3 podiums have been excellent, but in each case his team-mate has had problems, making it hard to judge Alonso's true performance. Of course, the fact that Trulli has bad luck/racecraft/whatever is not Alonso's fault, but it really makes it difficult to see how good he is.

True that in the 3 podiums Trulli had had problems (one because MS, the other because of a spin with RS and the last due to him as he crashed with DC).

But look at Austria, Trulli was 6th on the grid and finished 8th. Alonso exited from the pits and was running 8th with lots of chances to finish 5th when his car broke down.

Look at Brazil again, the team made a mistake placing dry tyres and he had to enter the pits twice in two laps, then he gets a drive through penalty, and he was running 3rd while Trulli was well behind.

Trulli is a fantastic driver, don't get me wrong, and to be honest I think he has the edge on qualifying over Alonso even this year (in Malaysia Trulli's 2nd was a better lap than Alonso's pole taking under consideration differences of fuel) but the ability to exceed with a car that is not the best of the field is what shows the potential of Alonso, even if he still has lots to learn as we saw yesterday.

Now Rubens is driving a car that is capable of wins and he is not only not winning but he is finishing 3rd behind drivers that drive cars not as capable of wins.

BTW, Alonso has screwed the last two qual sessions (Sat Austria & Thurs Monaco). You think that will affect him tomorrow at 14:00?

[FERRARI WEAPON]

It is Monaco, it's a qualifying session, one lap, we can't say every lap is the same, same temperature and that, some go out with more rubber on track, and it's one lap, race day does count, but as it's Monaco, qualifying is important, but drivers will make mistakes, natural cource of the season, some at different times. Don't think some drivers have become bad drivers after one qualifying session.

[manodemono]

I particularly like the 1 lap qualifying because it puts a lot more pressure on competitors.

This pressure is the same for everybody. It makes experienced drivers like DC commit errors that see them start races towards the back of the grid, and in some cases way back, just as KR or FA or MW have shown.

Yesterday afternoon's qualifying is proof of this added pressure. As zengiman summarizes

Trulli miles ahead of Alonso, Dc up on Kimi and of course the inevitable Ralf a little quicker than JPM..
If you read all the commentaries the last weeks on this BB these would be very unlikely events, especially at a drivers circuit like Monaco.

Remember Alonso wasn't to good last weekend in Austria. On Fridays, the real speedtest, Trulli has been quicker often. And DC was most of the year quicker than Kimi, just had more bad luck. And the Williams boys are evenly matched in their third season. Is this the voice of reason? That Kimi isn't all that great (yet). That Alonso is maybe nothing more than an over-hyped Briatore product?


;) Races however are about consistency, car conservation, staying out of trouble & luck such that the winner's total elasped time from the start is less than all others' times. Looking at yesterday morning's practice tells us a different story.

The best times of the top 6 drivers, Webber - Button - Coulthard - Alonso - Trulli & M. Schumacher were within 6 tenths of a second of each other. The top 4, Webber - Button - Coulthard - Alonso had bettered last year's best time. All these still don't tell the whole story. Trulli managed to do only 14 laps, Alonso only 17, while MS 33 laps.

What is perhps more worthwhile to look at is who posted the fastest cumulative lap times of all those who ran yesterday.

Only then could we say who went fastest yesterday !

[magicalonso]

Originally posted by zengiman
Trulli miles ahead of Alonso, Dc up on Kimi and of course the inevitable Ralf a little quicker than JPM..
If you read all the commentaries the last weeks on this BB these would be very unlikely events, especially at a drivers circuit like Monaco.

I am curious how we see this.
Saturday it will be the other way around, the real stars will shine as predicted?
Or is it just a fluke? Trulli and DC the Monaco specialists and JPM unlucky?
Or -God forbid- are we at the BB running behind after hype without using our brains?

Remember Alonso wasn't to good last weekend in Austria. On Fridays, the real speedtest, Trulli has been quicker often. And DC was most of the year quicker than Kimi, just had more bad luck. And the Williams boys are evenly matched in their third season. Is this the voice of reason? That Kimi isn't all that great (yet). That Alonso is maybe nothing more than an over-hyped Briatore product?

That's pretty low calling Trulli a loser, he's had a lot of bad luck this season.
Now Alonso definitely screwed up in Q1 but he proved in Free Practise that he's certainly able to outpace Trulli in Monaco, and I mean give the guy a break, it's true that he screwed up twice now, but he's 21 and you shouldn't be questioning the guy at this point. Now if he does screw up tomorrow again, there will be reason for concern but so far FA has given me no indication that he won't bounce back nicely.

[wawawa]

Originally posted by umapathypon
IIRC,Ralf had problems with traffic on his fast lap(seriously) while JPM had a clean run at the end when the times were tumbling.So,i wont read much into it.And JPM was out-qualified by Ralf here by about 0.7 s the first time around.

Good points So perhaps the jury is still out when it comes to distinguishing JPM and RS at Monaco. But I still find their radically different comments interesting, given that only 0.045 (!) seconds separated them. I imagine both of them pushed hard - perhaps not all out, but I doubt either of them took it easy.

Originally posted by role
But look at Austria, Trulli was 6th on the grid and finished 8th. Alonso exited from the pits and was running 8th with lots of chances to finish 5th when his car broke down.

Look at Brazil again, the team made a mistake placing dry tyres and he had to enter the pits twice in two laps, then he gets a drive through penalty, and he was running 3rd while Trulli was well behind.

Trulli is a fantastic driver, don't get me wrong, and to be honest I think he has the edge on qualifying over Alonso even this year (in Malaysia Trulli's 2nd was a better lap than Alonso's pole taking under consideration differences of fuel) but the ability to exceed with a car that is not the best of the field is what shows the potential of Alonso, even if he still has lots to learn as we saw yesterday.

I absolutely agree, particularly with your last comment Alonso is certainly showing potential, and he more than anyone else has lots of time to exploit it.

BTW, Alonso has screwed the last two qual sessions (Sat Austria & Thurs Monaco). You think that will affect him tomorrow at 14:00?

I'm really looking forward to seeing his performance this weekend. I suspect Renault would prefer going for a light first stint, in which case both drivers would have to ensure that they go for it on Saturday. If the weather doesn't play a role, I hope Alonso pushes himself despite the risk of stuffing up.

[maxell]

Originally posted by wawawa
[B]I found it interesting that although the RS-JPM gap was very small, RS sounded satisfied with the setup whereas JPM sounded disappointed.

Have you considered the possibility that JPM is just pulling cheap excuses?

[wawawa]

Originally posted by maxell
Have you considered the possibility that JPM is just pulling cheap excuses?

;)

After his Austrian GP was over, JPM sounded pleased - he made comments to the effect that they were finally understanding how to set up the FW-25. Perhaps coming off a "successful" weekend, he felt disappointed at not being able to get the car to handle to his liking. The Atlas Grapevine mentioned that Williams have really been struggling to get the best out of the car on the first day of practice - and this really hurts them over the weekend.