40 replies to this topic

[smithy]

Over in readers comments we're having a discussion about the ability of Montoya to win the driver's triple crown (now that he has two of the legs).

Who are the people who have also won two legs but never quite managed to get the third?

[David McKinney]

I've never been overly impressed with the so-called Triple Crown
To establish its validity you need to ask how many drivers ever went for it. The answer's probably two or three
But there must be lots who've won two legs

[smithy]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I've never been overly impressed with the so-called Triple Crown
To establish its validity you need to ask how many drivers ever went for it. The answer's probably two or three
But there must be lots who've won two legs

Does it only exist because Hill is the only person to have actually done it (nothwithstanding whether he purposely set out to achieve it)?

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by smithy
Over in readers comments we're having a discussion about the ability of Montoya to win the driver's triple crown (now that he has two of the legs).

  What "triple crown" and what two legs? The Indianapolis 500 and Monaco? I've seen references to the "triple crown" referring to: the world drivers championship, Indy and Le Mans (Graham Hill); the world championship, Indy and the Daytona 500 (Mario Andretti); Indy, Daytona and Le Mans (A.J. Foyt). Obviously, the "triple crown" is in the eye of the beholder. I have never read anything about a "triple crown" that consisted of Indy, Monaco and...what? Daytona, Le Mans, something else? And why just Monaco, and not the whole of the WDC?

[ensign14]

The main reference to a triple crown I have heard is Indy, Le Mans and the WDC, which does not make sense as you're not really comparing like with like. So Monty would only have 1 of these; drivers with 2 include Foyt, Andretti, Rindt, Hawthorn and Clark.

[smithy]

The one I'm referring to is Indy 500, Monaco & Le-Mans 24 hours.

I thought there had been a conversation here in TNF where this had been thrashed out but I can't find it in the archives. I saw an interview some time back with Bette Hill where she said the triple was WDC, Indy & Le-Mans.

However, I think Monaco, Indy & Le-Mans makes more sense because it's three races and not two races and a series.

I hadn't heard of Indy, Daytona & Le-Mans...... though it has some merit.

This is obviously a Pandora's Box (actually, more like a Pandora's Container) - everyone will have a different view.

However for the purposes of this debate let's assume the triple is Monaco, Indy & Le-Mans. Here's what I have so far:

Monaco Indy 500 Le-Mans
G Hill 1963-65, 1968-69 1966 1972
AJ Foyt 1961,64,67,77 1967
M Trintignat 1955,58 1954
B McLaren 1962 1966
J Rindt 1970 1965
JP Montoya 2003 2000

I'll have to nominate outright winner at Le-Mans as well.... I think Coulthard has a minor class win at Le-Mans but can't find it on any list so far. Also, the Brabhams and the Villenueves have a double as father & sons, McLaren gets the triple as a manufacturer but I guess they don't count.

Even if JPM doesn't get the triple, his double hasn't been done for thirty years. I'm impressed.

[smithy]

Oops...... sorry, table didn't work

			   Monaco					 Indy 500			  Le-Mans

G Hill		1963-65, 1968-69			 1966				 1972

AJ Foyt								   1961,64,67,77		 1967

M Trintignat  1955, 58										  1954

B McLaren	 1962											  1966

J Rindt	   1970											  1965

JP Montoya	2003						 2000

...... we'll probably never see an era like the 60's again, when drivers swapped between series like they did.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by smithy
Does it only exist because Hill is the only person to have actually done it (nothwithstanding whether he purposely set out to achieve it)?

meh, but Johnny Herbert still wants to start Indy so he would have at least contested the triple crown.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by smithy

I'll have to nominate outright winner at Le-Mans as well.... I think Coulthard has a minor class win at Le-Mans but can't find it on any list so far. Also, the Brabhams and the Villenueves have a double as father & sons, McLaren gets the triple as a manufacturer but I guess they don't count.

Even if JPM doesn't get the triple, his double hasn't been done for thirty years. I'm impressed.

DC had a class-win at Le Mans in a Jaguar XJ220 until the car was (much later) disqualified.

Personally, I'm mightily impressed with McLaren's success in so many different areas of racing. Far as I can tell there's only them and Mercedes have done it....

A lot of manufacturers have managed two - off the top of my head, Ferrari, Alfa, Lotus at Monaco and Le Mans; Maserati at Indy and Monaco...

(Arguably Duesenberg managed Indy and the French GP at Le Mans...)

[smithy]

Originally posted by petefenelon


DC had a class-win at Le Mans in a Jaguar XJ220 until the car was (much later) disqualified.

Personally, I'm mightily impressed with McLaren's success in so many different areas of racing. Far as I can tell there's only them and Mercedes have done it....

A lot of manufacturers have managed two - off the top of my head, Ferrari, Alfa, Lotus at Monaco and Le Mans; Maserati at Indy and Monaco...

Clark won at Indy in a Lotus. No wins at Le-Mans as far as I can tell.

I agree with you about McLaren and their success as a manufacturer. That they won all three AS A MANUFACTURER as well as Bruce winning two as driver was not something I expected to find.

[Vitesse2]

Like David, I've always considered the triple crown a bit of a red herring. Apart from 1946 and 1952 (Ascari) there was virtually no European participation in Indy before 1963, so there's 17 years you can discount. Looking the other way, American road racing was more sports car than open wheel based, so with a few notable exceptions (Hill, Gurney, Gregory, Fraser, Ginther etc) the drivers in it had no motivation or means to drive in the WDC, while US track racing was essentially a closed, very introspective society, its members not racing outside the ovals and dirt tracks.

As noted above, a few top-class Americans like Foyt and Jones did race at Le Mans, but there's essentially a very small time window in which either triple might have been achieved, whether you count Monaco or the WDC - I'd put it in the period 1963-75.

Certainly Mario's come close, but look how long he's been trying! And it's important to note that when Hill/Pescarolo won Le Mans, two-driver teams were the norm - a significantly greater achievement then than now, methinks!

If Herbert does win Indy it would be a significant achievement for him, but he only ever won two GPs, both more by luck than anything else. The only current driver who I could foresee ever doing the "classic" triple like Hill would be Villeneuve, but so far he's shown no inclination to race sports cars.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by smithy


Clark won at Indy in a Lotus. No wins at Le-Mans as far as I can tell.

I agree with you about McLaren and their success as a manufacturer. That they won all three AS A MANUFACTURER as well as Bruce winning two as driver was not something I expected to find.

Brain fade on my part caused by being on the phone at the same time - I was thinking of Jimmy and Graham ;)

I'm sure Chunky would've won at Le Mans had he not had his strop with them in the early sixties.;)

pete

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by smithy


Clark won at Indy in a Lotus. No wins at Le-Mans as far as I can tell.

Lotus had a number of small-class wins at Le Mans, despite the best efforts of the officials , so on those criteria they'd join McLaren.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by petefenelon

I'm sure Chunky would've won at Le Mans had he not had his strop with them in the early sixties.;)

pete

What with? The 30? The 40?

While I'll admit that Jimmy and those two cars were a potent combination, the thought of him trying to flog those evil-handling overpowered beasts round the Sarthe is frankly terrifying!

[BorderReiver]

For me the triple crown has always been, Indy, Monaco and Le Mans, no question about. It's one of the more obscure accolades of motorsport but none the less valid.

Incidentally I have heard the World Drivers Championship, World Sports Car Championship, and the Indycar Championship reffered to as the "Triple Grand Slam" but no one has ever acheived it.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Vitesse2




What with? The 30? The 40?

While I'll admit that Jimmy and those two cars were a potent combination, the thought of him trying to flog those evil-handling overpowered beasts round the Sarthe is frankly terrifying!

Oh, I dunno. Son-of-23 with a lid on and DFV in the back might've given the real big bangers a run for their money. Remember, we're dealing with alternate history here ;)

(Although I'm sure that if Team were still taking sports cars seriously their cars would've been a lot better than the 30 or 40)...

pete

[ian senior]

I always thought the "triple crown" was Indy, Le Mans and the WDC. Arguably the three most impotrant things in motor racing. I can see no reason why Monaco should be singled out for "special" status. Despite all the bulls**t that surrounds it, it's really just another race.

[lustigson]

The 'triple crown' is not all that. I'd be impressed if any driver won the four top notch races: Daytona, Indy, Monte Carlo and Le Mans... in the same year.

[2F-001]

Add to McLaren's manufacturer's tally their Can Am championships, a couple of USAC titles and a single F2 series race win just around the corner from where I now sit... (Oh, and the Soapbox race at Goodwood).

Re: Lotus... I've heard the big-engined (2.5 litre Climax??) Elite project described as a potential Le Mans winner... how realistic prospect do you think that was?

[2F-001]

Didn't Vic Elford win the Monte Carlo Rally and the Daytona 24 hours and score WDC points (in a less-than-great car) all in the same season?
That takes some beating for versatility...

I've a feeling we've been along this route before, though...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Add to McLaren's manufacturer's tally their Can Am championships, a couple of USAC titles and a single F2 series race win just around the corner from where I now sit... (Oh, and the Soapbox race at Goodwood).

Re: Lotus... I've heard the big-engined (2.5 litre Climax??) Elite project described as a potential Le Mans winner... how realistic prospect do you think that was?

Wasn't that effectively the car that nearly killed Jonathan Sieff (Elite with a two-litre FPF, IIRC)?

Although an Elite-big FPF sounds interesting from a power-to-weight point of view, I'm not sure that (A) the handling would be too clever given all that weight up front and (B) whether it would last 25 hours without shaking itself to bits!

Lawrence's book on Chapman suggests the possibility of a Daimler takeover of Lotus, with the aim of putting their 2.5 V8 in the Elan +2. Now if you can fit that in there, what chance a DFV later? (yes, yes, it's all sounding a bit modsports I know!)

pete

[D-Type]

Originally posted by smithy


Clark won at Indy in a Lotus. No wins at Le-Mans as far as I can tell.

I agree with you about McLaren and their success as a manufacturer. That they won all three AS A MANUFACTURER as well as Bruce winning two as driver was not something I expected to find.

Clark's best placing at Le Mans was third in a privately (Border Reivers) entered ex-works Aston Martin in 1960.

As a manufacturer, some would say Lotus did win Le Mans. They won the 1957 Index of Performance at a time when the organisers considered it equally meritorious as they gave it equal prize money. After all it was when the potentially index-winning Lotus 23 was banned that Chapman turned his back on Le Mans.

To get back to the original thread, I think the "triple crown" can only mean winning the top event in three different types of top level racing. As the relative importance varies so will the triple crown. So we have

Graham Hill - WDC, Indy, Le Mans
Mario Andretti - WDC, Indy, Daytona 500
but what about
Louis Chiron - French GP (most prestigious GP at the time), Le Mans, Monte Carlo rally (again at that time GP drivers regularly entered)

If you allow some flexibility there are lots of two-leg drivers, it's getting 3 different types of racing that's difficult.

For recognition of versatility, the USAC Championship over the years has been very good including Indy, Pike's Peak, high speed ovals, dirt tracks, road races, and in general the whole spectrum of US racing apart from sports cars and stock cars.

[rdrcr]

D-,

You are still comparing apples and oranges. In your example, you have two races and one entire series.

If I'm not mistaken, the term "Triple Crown" stems from horse racing and the coveted races of The Kentucky Derby, The Preakness and The Belmont Stakes.

These are races not series.

[Ross Stonefeld]

My personal triple crown would be

Indy500
Brickyard 400
USGP

#4 would be Mayor of Indianapolis

[David M. Kane]

Excellent Ross! However, the mayor has been catching a lot of heat lately
mainly for the road works downtown. He did get to lead an excellent 500
parade though!

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by rdrcr

If I'm not mistaken, the term "Triple Crown" stems from horse racing and the coveted races of The Kentucky Derby, The Preakness and The Belmont Stakes.

Or in England the 2000 Guineas, the Derby and the St Leger. However in my dictionary this triplet is given as "triple event", a term previously unknown to me. In Rugby, if one of England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales beats all of the other three, they are said to have won the triple crown. Since you lot are a nation of "small-R" republicans, perhaps the origins of the Triple Crown were on the east side of the Atlantic.

EDIT: The term "Triple Crown" for the US horse races was apparently first coined in the 1930s.

[ensign14]

Perhaps the reason why people referred to a Triple Crown (as opposed to a Triple Glory or something) is because the papal tiara comprises of 3 crowns?

I think the first use of it is comparatively recent, circa 1900, referring to rugby union and the British Isles teams beating each other.

[Roger Clark]

How about Felice Nazarro, Grand Prix, Targa Florio and Kaiserpreis, all in the same year.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by rdrcr
D-,

You are still comparing apples and oranges. In your example, you have two races and one entire series.

Fair point. Indianapolis and Le Mans are bigger than their respective championships and stand alone as events. In this day and age, this is not true of any Grand Prix. They are all equal rounds of the championship, admittedly some are more equal than others. But take away the championship round status of an event and you have nothing. I didn't think it was fair to say Indianapolis, Le Mans and any GP. I don't consider Monaco or Monza or anywhere particularly special as a race so I went for the championship.
Funnily enough, even if you say a triple of any GP, any Sports Car championship race, any USAC round, or any NASCAR round, the list doesn't get much longer as the degree of crossing of barriers is not as great as it could be.

Originally posted by Roger Clark
How about Felice Nazarro, Grand Prix, Targa Florio and Kaiserpreis, all in the same year.

Different types of race? Certainly the Grand Prix and the Kaiserpreis were for different types of car, but wouldn't the Targa be classified as being for Grand Prix type cars?


How about Three Championships?
John Surtees - WDC, Can Am, Motorcycles (in his day the 500cc was the big one)
Any other contenders?

[weasle]

i would think tha mario is probably the most well rounded racer of all time.
4x champ car champion, daytona 500 winner, wdc, indy 500 winner, 3x 12hrs sebring winner, and usac dirt track champion.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by weasle
i would think tha mario is probably the most well rounded racer of all time.
4x champ car champion, daytona 500 winner, wdc, indy 500 winner, 3x 12hrs sebring winner, and usac dirt track champion.

I don't think anyone could argue with you there ;)

Alas he never quite managed to win Le Mans.

but he did win Pike's Peak hillclimb


pete

[Uncle Davy]

All wrong , it's Monaco, Spa, and Monza...




Damn, the old 'Ring has to be in there too, doesn't it?



...and I thought I was being so clever.





Never mind.

[Don Capps]

all this "Triple Crown" stuff is utter nonsense. There isn't a "Triple Crown" and even if there was, the Balkanization -- sorry Wolf, et al. -- of modern racing, that is since 1894 or so, would make any true such cross-series competition a faint dream at best. Besides, why is Monaco always tossed in there? And since most of the truly classic events of yeaterday have gone away or been demeaned, a "Triple Crown" would be actually be more along the lines of the French GP/GP de l'ACF, the Indianapolis International 500 Mile Sweepstakes/Grand Prix, and the Italian GP. Or, so forth and so on such as the Bathurst 1000, Le Mans 24 hours, and the Daytona 500.....

However, I think that I stand by my earlier statement -- there is no such creature except in the minds who have too much time on their hands....

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think mine is pretty good ;) One track, three completely different disciplines.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I think mine is pretty good ;) One track, three completely different disciplines.

Full Points to Ross!

[Doug Nye]

I wouldn't swear to it, but I've got a feeling that back in 1972 or whenever it was, I was one of the first blokes to waffle on about Graham Hill having achieved an unofficial 'triple crown' of motor racing's pinnacle achievements - at THAT TIME some things were unargued:

The most prestigious international title was the Formula 1 Drivers' World Championship -

The most prestigious, most charismatic and most universally well known individual open-wheeler race worldwide was the Indy 500 -

And the most prestigious, most charismatic and most universally well known sports car race worldwide (if that's not a clash with 'universally'?) was the Le Mans 24-Hours.

NASCAR at that time was no more than an earner for a bunch of red-necked deep south motor sporting dyslexics who didn't understand that good cars should also turn right.

Not a single solitary Grand Prix (not even Monaco) nor any other road race came even close in public perception to the contemporary stature of Le Mans. No rallies counted at all. The general public had never heard of the Targa Florio, nor of the Nurburgring, and the Carrera PanAmericana was another euphemism for the Mexican two-step wasn't it?...Montezuma's Revenge...

At the time when Graham completed his personal triple crown with his victory at Le Mans the accolade was indeed valid...

DCN

[Jimmy Piget]

I do belong to the ones winning this Triple Crown.
I attend Le Mans 24 Hours 5 times (1960, 1963, 1967, 1970, 1971), Monaco GP in 1972 and Indy 500 in 2003.
Not as a driver, but ...

[indysteve]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
My personal triple crown would be

Indy500
Brickyard 400
USGP

#4 would be Mayor of Indianapolis

Anyone who would win this triple crown would be a lock to win #4 if he chose to pursue it!

[Wolf]

I think both pro et contra arguments in this debate make some sense. What I would like to point out that even my sentiments may sway towards Don's (maybe even in use of 'Balkanization', although I might have slightly different perception of the term*), the 'triple crown' (be it real, or the stuff the dreams are made of) is by no means anything less than exceptional feat. No matter how few drivers have contested it, or how short the opportunity window was; but for a driver to win WDC, go over to Indy and best all drivers on their home 'turf', plus to excell in sportscars to win le Mans, is something definitely out of the ordinary.

* I would relate it to behaviour of certain WDCs, shall we name them T****** & B*****?, and FIA who in good practice of EU/UN acted only when there was nothing to be salvaged; and even then only reluctantly and with less than questionable sense of justice

Doug- . It seems You tried, and succeeded, in coining a term that would describe N.G.'s unique feat. Yet people, incl. me to a certain extent, later tried to make out of it a "tin cup" that drivers may (or may not) have tried to contest; something other than it was supposed to be. I plead guilty to deriving certain amount of pleasure from using the term (and I use it exclusively in the same breath with N. G. Hill); only because his talents (granted, he probably wasn't the fastest or the best GP driver out there) in racing car are generally underrated and conviniently forgotten... And it gives me a certain satisfaction to use it related to the driver, I feel, history has been less than kind to (esp. when people say 'he'd have great career had he quit few years earlier').

[smithy]

Originally posted by smithy
....I saw an interview some time back with Bette Hill where she said the triple was WDC, Indy & Le-Mans......

I saw this interview again last night. This time I caught the whole programme which included a clip of Hill being presented with a gold medal for his performance as WDC, Indy winner and Le-Mans winner (he made a funny speech about wanting to give it back because the country couldn't afford it).

Sure enough - go here http://www.barc.net/...onour.htm#medal and there the acheivement is listed for 1972.

Now, admittedly it's not referred to as a "triple crown" and Bette refers to "all three" or perhaps "the big three" rather than a triple crown.

I don't know what I've proved here now........... I guess that it was an amazing achievment. Also, that the entire Hill (Graham and Damon) family made some incredible achievements without necessarily being blessed with a huge amount of natural talent.

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Don Capps
all this "Triple Crown" stuff is utter nonsense. There isn't a "Triple Crown" and even if there was, the Balkanization -- sorry Wolf, et al. -- of modern racing, that is since 1894 or so, would make any true such cross-series competition a faint dream at best. Besides, why is Monaco always tossed in there? And since most of the truly classic events of yeaterday have gone away or been demeaned, a "Triple Crown" would be actually be more along the lines of the French GP/GP de l'ACF, the Indianapolis International 500 Mile Sweepstakes/Grand Prix, and the Italian GP. Or, so forth and so on such as the Bathurst 1000, Le Mans 24 hours, and the Daytona 500.....

However, I think that I stand by my earlier statement -- there is no such creature except in the minds who have too much time on their hands....

In fact there is a Triple Crown. I have not seen it mentioned yet. These are the 500 milers at the USAC trail during the 70's; Indy, Pocono and Ontario, Cal.
It is specificallly mentioned in the Hungness Indy 500 yearbooks (1973-1976) and also in the USAC yearbooks. The first Triple Crown was held in 1971 when the races were on the schedule for the first time.
These yearbook gives the following winners:
1971 and 1972: Joe Leonard
1973: Roger McCluskey
1974 Bobby Unser
1975 and 1979: AJ Foyt
1976 and 1980: Johnny Rutherford.
1977: Tom Sneva
1978: Al Unser (who won all the three event and may be considered as the Triple Crown Champion).
Although in 1979 and 1980 the Ontario 500 was not any longer sanctioned by USAC, the USAC yearbook gives still a winner for the Triple Crown

"AJ Foyt was in 1975 the first one to have won all 3 jewels in USAC's Triple Crown" USAC yearbook 1976, p. 189/191

The only drivers to have won all three original Triple Crown events are.
AJ Foyt
Indy 1961, 1964, 1967 & 1977
Ontario 1975
Pocono 1973, 1975, 1979 & 1981

Al Unser
Indy 1970, 1971, 1978 & 1987
Ontario 1977 & 1978
Pocono 1976 & 1978

Bobby Unser
Indy 1968, 1975 & 1981
Ontario 1974, 1979 & 1980
Pocono 1980

The Ontario 500 disappeared from the 1981 schedule. In 1982 Ontario was replaced by the Michigan 500. I don't know if the Triple Crown was reinstituted.
Pocono disappeared in 1990.
To be complete with the 500 milers in the post WW2 era, The Fontana 500, like Ontario also in California, was instuted in 1997 with that horrible Luyendijk accident.
The Michigan 500 (CART) was replaced in 2002 by the Michigan 400 (IRL).

Besides Foyt and the Unser brothers the drivers below have won 500 milers at three different venues.

Mario Andretti
Indy 1969
Pocono 1986
Michigan 1984

Johnny Rutherford
Indy 1974, 1976 & 1980
Pocono 1974
Michigan 1986

Rick Mears
Indy 1979, 1984, 1988 & 1991
Pocono 1982, 1985 & 1987
Michigan 1991

Danny Sullivan
Indy 1985
Pocono 1984 & 1989
Michigan 1988


Gerrit Stevens