92 replies to this topic

[karlth]

Clark vs Hill, Lauda vs Prost and Senna vs Prost - the stuff that legends are made of.

It has been a long time since we last saw two world champions or truly world class drivers at their peak team up in the same team. With many important drivers contracts expiring in the near future and four teams emerging as world champion contenders it seems plausible that we might see another star driver team up soon.

Which one is the most likely?

[michaelab]

I think Alonso vs. Villeneuve at Renault is the most likely on your list. The one I'd most like to see is Schumacher vs. Alonso at Ferrari

Michael.

[TEquiLA]

This is what people mean by silly season isn't it

[The RedBaron]

I don't know about Superteam, apart from 1997 with Villeneuve......MS has never been beaten over a season by any of those pretenders!

[Davebo]

MS has never really raced against his teammate, so you can scratch any pairing including him off the list.

Much as we'd love to see it...

[gerry nassar]

It would have been good to see MS and Mika together!!

Id say any combination of JPM, Kimi, Alonso would do me fine.

Doesnt look like MS will ever allow one of these guys as his teammate. :

I agree JV and Alonso is probably the most likely in the near future.

[padovani]

Old debate, I know, but I feel like doing it:

If JPM vs Ralf even matchup serves as a guide, you'd conclude MS vs JPM at Ferrari would be the usual Michael washout.

Or if JPM is has star calibre, then you'd already have your star matchup at Williams - Ralf vs JPM. Ummmm, somehow it desn't sound right.;)

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by padovani
Old debate, I know, but I feel like doing it:

If JPM vs Ralf even matchup serves as a guide, you'd conclude MS vs JPM at Ferrari would be the usual Michael washout.

Or if JPM is has star calibre, then you'd already have your star matchup at Williams - Ralf vs JPM. Ummmm, somehow it desn't sound right.;)

Exactly! If JPM is on the list, then why isn´t Ralfie?

And why isn´t Webber on the list? I was kinda hoping for Dennis to get his hands on Mark Webber and then see Webber and Raikkonen battle it out in a new McLaren era after Michael is gone. But then Webber decided to sign again for Jaguar...well it can still happen in the future of course!

Raikkonen and Alonso pairing up would be neat as well Or any other combination of the tree.

In my opinion these three guys look more like the future stars than Montoya does. He´s been at Williams for three years now and still hasn´t managed to look a lot better than Ralf. So either they are both very good or both just plain average, who knows?

[HSJ]

KR, JPM, FA. Any combo of them in any good team would be nice.

JVi, he might retire after this year. And he'd certainly not make a "super teamup" with any other driver. Even KR and DC are a more "super teamup" than KR and JVi would be!

[No27]

Montoya -v- Villeneuve at Ferrari, the most accident prone teamup history will give us.

[shays]

DC and RB at Volks-powered Sauber (the first car coming out from the new Hinwil's wind tunnel)..

[TT6]

I guess it's not exactly a super combo but I really loved to see both Coulthard and R Schumacher together in Toyota for two reasons.

1. To see which one is better when both have a fresh start in a team and to make speculative indirect comparisons between Kimi and Monty.

2. To make room for talented youngsters in the top teams.

[revvhead]

MS and JPM at williams
You read it HERE first

[lustigson]

Neither is going to happen if you ask me!

[nigel red5]

From a pure neutral point of view, i voted for Schumi v Montoya. It`d be interesting to see how they would each handle the other during the season.
Of course, from a biased point of view i`d like to see JV either up against Kimi Raikkonen, or Fernando Alonso.
I could go a step further and say "he`d wipe the florr with them", but i think we all know that`s not true. Those 2 young guns are fantastic and IMO have great futures.

At the end of the day F1 over the next 10 years is gonna be Alonso v Raikkonen. Villeneuve, Schumacher and probably Coulthard won`t be there within 4 years.....so let`s just get used to it.

[Jodum]

MOntoya vs Raikonnen at Ferrari would be magical

[McHulme]

I voted JV & Alonso, but only because I think its the most likely. My ultimate team would be JV & MS @ Ferrari - given their history, and JVs elation at finally getting a decent car, I suspect he'd beat MS, and love every minute of it. I know a lot of ppl think JV is a washed up has-been, but I still think he has the fire, and more than enough talent to do a number on MS. Besides which, if MS is actually being challenged by his team-mate, I suspect he'd crumble...

[Bernd]

Clark Vs Hill both World Champions was in theory a Super Team but in practice it didn't work out that way. It was 5 Grand Prix & 4 Tasman Rounds to nil before Jimmy died.

Clark was simply on another level.

[McHulme]

Originally posted by Bernd
Clark Vs Hill both World Champions was in theory a Super Team but in practice it didn't work out that way. It was 5 Grand Prix & 4 Tasman Rounds to nil before Jimmy died.

Clark was simply on another level.

Kind of what I said in my previous post ...

JV = JC, MS =;)

[revvhead]

i laugh and scoff

If that were true,
JV would have done something of worth in the last FIVE years at BAR. It took MS just one season to take an ailing Ferrari to 3 wins in only Six race finishes, with two 2nds and one 3rd. Every season thereon, MS has been a title contender

JV could not even score a point in his first year.

[312 PB]

to be fair to both drivers
it would be interesting to see:

m schu v jpm @ mclaren
m schu v kimi @ williams
jpm v kimi @ ferrari
alonso v jpm @ mclaren
alonso v kimi @ williams

but it aint gonna happen

[HSJ]

Originally posted by McHulme
Besides which, if MS is actually being challenged by his team-mate, I suspect he'd crumble...

I don't know if MS would crumble under what pressure JV could put him under, but IMO in RS we see what would happen to MS as well. Ever since JPM got his act togeter mid-2001 RS's performances have suffered. Pre-JPM RS was performing better than now, and I don't mean in relation to his teammate, but rather in relation to his car and the rest of the field as well. I suspect MS would suffer similarly if truly challenged within his own team. IMO the Schu bros need the mental security that they are not challenged within their own teams. That's why MS has never sought a good teammate even though he must know that it is the most significant part lacking in his CV.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Double Apex


Exactly! If JPM is on the list, then why isn´t Ralfie?

Ralf has been crappy this year thats why.

[steeng]

Originally posted by The RedBaron
I don't know about Superteam, apart from 1997 with Villeneuve......MS has never been beaten over a season by any of those pretenders!

You're right! The real Superteam should be Villeneuve and Schumacher!

[kismet]

Originally posted by HSJ
I don't know if MS would crumble under what pressure JV could put him under, but IMO in RS we see what would happen to MS as well.

What, apart from their last name, actually supports the idea that Ralf's relative success (or lack of it) against JPM is any indication of how MS would fare? It doesn't seem like Ralf and Michael are awfully identical in most of the aspects that I've been able to observe, so why would Ralf's proneness for crumbling indicate that that's what would happen to his brother as well?

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by Arrow


Ralf has been crappy this year thats why.

They´re both on 25 points, remember?

If JPM was that good and Ralf was that bad, it could never be so close. I am tempted to say Montoya has a slight edge over Ralf, but surely he hasn´t managed to trash Ralf at all.

They are on the same level.

[TOLIN]

Cheques meets Alonso at Renault. I do not see other possibility, though I would like to see Fisico at Mc. Laren or Ferrari. Coulthard shall be kicked out IMO.

[MuMu]

Originally posted by Double Apex


They´re both on 25 points, remember?

Ralf's highest finish is 4th... JPM's been unlucky with the mechanical failures while in good positions and being rammed by AP.
Ralf has yet to have a DNF - if they're on the same level Ralf should be way ahead of JPM , yet with only 4 race finishes JPM has the same amount of points! (technically 5, but the AP incident basically put him out of the race).
None of JPM's DNF's has been his fault.

The points table tell only half the story, which is that as a driver, JPM has been outperforming Ralf this year.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by HSJ
That's why MS has never sought a good teammate even though he must know that it is the most significant part lacking in his CV.

Could you please tell me the name of the last driver who sought a good teammate?

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Double Apex


They´re both on 25 points, remember?

Wow your so insightfull

[karlth]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth
Could you please tell me the name of the last driver who sought a good teammate?

Villeneuve.

[B.Verkiler]

Originally posted by karlth


Villeneuve.

Frentzen?
Zonta
Panis
Button

[karlth]

Yes, Villeneuve. Alain Prost too.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by karlth
Yes, Villeneuve. Alain Prost too.

Prost, yes, but JVi? (Maybe you are talking about Gilles?) Zonta/Button/Panis are certainly not as good as Rubens. And JVi never seemed keen on Button coming anyway. (And I would think he is the most promising of the bunch).

Rubens was hyped as the challenge MS needed when he was announced as Irvine's replacement. Who was a better available candidate on the grid? Mika and DC were at McLaren, JVi, despite all the talk, was going to ride his gravy train, and remember MS lobbied for Alesi.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Smooth


Prost, yes, but JVi? (Maybe you are talking about Gilles?) Zonta/Button/Panis are certainly not as good as Rubens. And JVi never seemed keen on Button coming anyway. (And I would think he is the most promising of the bunch).

Rubens was hyped as the challenge MS needed when he was announced as Irvine's replacement. Who was a better available candidate on the grid? Mika and DC were at McLaren, JVi, despite all the talk, was going to ride his gravy train, and remember MS lobbied for Alesi.

I was answering Nik's question Could you please tell me the name of the last driver who sought a good teammate? and Villeneuve was quoted saying that Schumacher would be his first choice as a teammate.

Villeneuve's has had very good teammates. Both Frentzen and Zonta were considered potential Schumacher beaters when they were paired against him. Panis was probably though not chosen for his speed but rather his repuation and experience as a McLaren tester.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by karlth


I was answering Nik's question Could you please tell me the name of the last driver who sought a good teammate? and Villeneuve was quoted saying that Schumacher would be his first choice as a teammate.

Nice PR stunt from JVi. He should have said Senna, though, as he doesn't like MS so much!

[troyf1]

Originally posted by karlth


I was answering Nik's question Could you please tell me the name of the last driver who sought a good teammate? and Villeneuve was quoted saying that Schumacher would be his first choice as a teammate.

That is rather interesting because he was also quoted in April 2003 issue of F1 Magazine as saying: " I don't think we(referring to himself and Michael) could work together. I do not respect him as a person. I respect that he has won so many races. However, as people we are totally different. Don't ask me why, we just are. People ask me if I am jealous of his world championships. The answer to that is no. Everyone in the pitlane think 'Hmm, if I had that car I would have a shot at winning the world championship'. It is the best car of the moment."

[dpardyrx7]

Jv has never forgiven Michael for the Jerez incident. Prior to that they got along Ok, but he certainly seems to hold a grudge. I think JV partnered with Montoya at williams would be very interesting. Very similiar styles and in some respects careers.

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by HSJ


I don't know if MS would crumble under what pressure JV could put him under, but IMO in RS we see what would happen to MS as well. Ever since JPM got his act togeter mid-2001 RS's performances have suffered. Pre-JPM RS was performing better than now, and I don't mean in relation to his teammate, but rather in relation to his car and the rest of the field as well. I suspect MS would suffer similarly if truly challenged within his own team. IMO the Schu bros need the mental security that they are not challenged within their own teams. That's why MS has never sought a good teammate even though he must know that it is the most significant part lacking in his CV.

No wonder you're getting a name for yourself on this BB!!!!
You talk complete b@llox sometimes.....apart from having the same parents and sharing
the same surname, I can't see any similarities between Ralf & Michael either mentally, emotionally or in terms of ability and racing style...they are quite opposite imo!

[Robbie]

Super teamups are a thing of the past. Ferrari are simply the first example of it (though some cosidered RB's arrival at Ferrari a serious pairing). Fantacize all you like.

[karlth]

Originally posted by The RedBaron



No wonder you're getting a name for yourself on this BB!!!!
You talk complete b@llox sometimes.....apart from having the same parents and sharing
the same surname, I can't see any similarities between Ralf & Michael either mentally, emotionally or in terms of ability and racing style...they are quite opposite imo!

They have infact got very similar driving styles and in regards to their racing prowess Michael said during Ralf's first years in F1 that his younger brother was more advanced than himself at the same time during his career.

The only real difference between Ralf and Michael is that Ralf has had to fight teammates of worth as equals.

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by karlth


They have infact got very similar driving styles and in regards to their racing prowess Michael said during Ralf's first years in F1 that his younger brother was more advanced than himself at the same time during his career.

The only real difference between Ralf and Michael is that Ralf has had to fight teammates of worth as equals.

You mean how like Michael aggressively defends his position whilst Ralf rolls over easily.....or how Michael makes clean overtaking manoeuvres for position whilst Ralf is unable to........or how Michael laps backmarkers like a knife going through butter, whilst Ralf wastes 2-3 laps before making an attempt.

Yep, very similar driving styles.......not!!

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by karlth



The only real difference between Ralf and Michael is that Ralf has had to fight teammates of worth as equals.

That's a bit hard to duplicate, as there isn't a driver on the grid that could be described as Michael's equal.....so it's never going to happen regardless who you stick in the no.2 car.
The last racer to be consider an equal (or nearly equal) was Mika Hakkinen, but unfortunately he's retired now!

[karlth]

Originally posted by The RedBaron
Yep, very similar driving styles.......not!!

Yes, very similar driving styles. Late brakers both of them with excellent mid corner control.

[karlth]

Originally posted by The RedBaron
That's a bit hard to duplicate, as there isn't a driver on the grid that could be described as Michael's equal.....so it's never going to happen regardless who you stick in the no.2 car.
The last racer to be consider an equal (or nearly equal) was Mika Hakkinen, but unfortunately he's retired now!

Ok then tell me who is the strongest teammate 5 times World Champion Michael Schumacher has had to compete against.

De Cesaris? Aging Patrese or over the hill and semi retired Piquet? Perhaps Jordan midfielders Irvine or Barrichello? Lehto? Martin Brundle? Jos Verstappen?

Pathetic really.

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by karlth
The only real difference between Ralf and Michael is that Ralf has had to fight teammates of worth as equals.

certainly you are wrong to say that's the only real difference between the drivers, but with regard to the team-mates issue, that's the choice of his employers because they know they've got a sure thing with Michael, why bother with another superstar in the same team?

[karlth]

I think we'll have a super team in the next two years simply because the advantages of having two top grade drivers in team fighting for the championship outweigh the negatives.

Should Toyota for example spend $30 million on development in the vain hope of gaining a tenth or two when they can pay Montoya or Alonso $15 million and they'd lap half a second faster - and not even taking into account the marketing aspect.

A team like Ferrari for example cannot afford any longer having a lackluster second driver like Rubens when every point counts.

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by karlth


Ok then tell me who is the strongest teammate 5 times World Champion Michael Schumacher has had to compete against.

De Cesaris? Aging Patrese or over the hill and semi retired Piquet? Perhaps Jordan midfielders Irvine or Barrichello? Lehto? Martin Brundle? Jos Verstappen?

Pathetic really.

Schumacher is not the employer and can't make those decisions!
A lot of people don't rate Ralf on this BB, yet he's held his own against JPM during 2.5 seasons....how good is JPM actually?

[karlth]

Originally posted by Jacaré
... but with regard to the team-mates issue, that's the choice of his employers because they know they've got a sure thing with Michael, why bother with another superstar in the same team?

As I've said before, I don't blame Ferrari or Michael for focusing totally on one driver. It has paid rich dividents. It is just that we've have been unable to gauge how good Schumacher really is, we've been forced to compare not Schumacher to Hakkinen but Schumacher/Ferrari to Hakkinen/McLaren, because Michael's teammate is a non factor.

[Jacaré]

Originally posted by karlth
A team like Ferrari for example cannot afford any longer having a lackluster second driver like Rubens when every point counts.

wasn't it the case in recent seasons that the WCC could almost be won on Michael's points alone? What's the major change?