24 replies to this topic

[D. Heimgartner]

Found a bit of info on this man at rumbledrome.com. Vukovich won two Indy 500 in the 50s; he also crashed out of the race, while leading, and died of his injuries. Does anyone know anything about Vukovich? Where was he from? What was he like: reputation, driving?

[Ray Bell]

There's been plenty of posts about Bill Vukovich, and even a thread about Billy Vukovich Jr...

Suggest you use search and see what you can find.

Here's a starter...

http://www.atlasf1.c...=&postid=821242

[theunions]

Worth checking out if you haven't already done so:
Richard Dean's analysis of Vukie's fatal accident

And D., I don't think there are any board-able bodies of water in Waipio...unless you're talking about the Hawaiian Waters Adventure Park nearby?;)

[D. Heimgartner]

theunions, Waipio Valley on the Big Island of Hawaii has a very good beach break. This last Sat. we had a nice, late season North Swell.

[D. Heimgartner]

Here's a birds eye view of Waipio.

[D. Heimgartner]

That's a long read. Terrible accident. I'm somewhat amazed that the three cars coming out of turn 2 could not have avoided the long, spinning, flipping car. Vukovich must have stayed on throttle through the moment up to impact... (conjecture). Did these cars even have brakes? Did the drivers race back to the line during a caution? Were there even cautions?

[Don Capps]

My first racing "heroes" that I followed were Alberto Ascari, Bill Vukovich, Curtis Turner, John Fitch, Phil Walters, Stirling Moss, and Juan Fangio. It was Vukovich who aroused my interest in the Indianapolis 500 about 50 years ago. I recall cutting his picture out of a Firestone advertisement in an American magazine and putting on the cover of one of my first scrapbooks.

Since you've read the article concerning the accident, keep in mind that the dynamics of the racing then were quite different than they are today. An obvious statement, but one easily overlooked. The roadsters and modified dirt champ cars ran on teeny, tiny contact patches provided by the tires they used. The cars were, in the vast majority of the cases, well built, often to aircraft industry standards, and solid as tanks.

The problem -- and I am certain there are others who can express and explain this far better than I can -- was that once the cars "lost" it, especially at speed on the straight, they went a long way and the only deformable, crash-absorbing material in the car was the driver. Cautions were signaled by a lighting system and there was no "racing the yellow back to the line" because the caution became effective immediately and the cars were to hold station in relation to the other cars on the track.

The Vukovich crash was one of those truly unfortunate incidents in which a number of elements led to a very nasty conclusion.

[D. Heimgartner]

Very true. And it should not be forgotten that this "nasty conclusion" seemed to come about because the excessive evasive action of the rookie, Keller, who jerked the car down into the grass and then back onto the straight. He made a bad situation much worse.

Of course, the below picture sorta reminds me of the ending of the Brazilian GP, where some drivers opted to slow down and heed the yellows, while one or more drivers chose to barrel through the accident scene at full blast (the fellow's name rhymes with expresso).



Elisian, whom the article indicates to be a close friend of Vukovich, seemed to have brought down the speed of his machine well before the accident site. And if I'm remembering correctly, the other guy (in Alonsoesque fashion) was to barrel full-throttle through the accident scene. I guess things never change.



The other thing that struck me is that Elisian is the only driver ever to have stopped and come to the aid of a imperiled driver at the Speedway. The account of his brave, futile attempt to save his friend was quite hard to read.

[doc540]

Yes, they had brakes, and, yes, they had cautions.

There was no "racing back to the line" like NASCAR.

[theunions]

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
theunions, Waipio Valley on the Big Island of Hawaii has a very good beach break. This last Sat. we had a nice, late season North Swell.

Gotcha...thought you meant Oahu.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
Found a bit of info on this man at rumbledrome.com. Vukovich won two Indy 500 in the 50s; he also crashed out of the race, while leading, and died of his injuries. Does anyone know anything about Vukovich? Where was he from? What was he like: reputation, driving?

Finally got a chance to get to this...

I can't add a tremendous amount except I know that Bill Vukovich started his driving career in "Semi-Stocks" at the 5/8 mile dirt Goshen Speedway in Goshen, California (near Visalia) before moving on to Midgets in his hometown of Fresno.

His brothers Mike and Eli were also involved, Mike as mechanic and Eli as a driver, primarily on the West Coast.

Another tidbit: Bill Vukovich won something like 13 straight feature races in Midgets at Sportland Park in Bakersfield.


Jim Thurman

[bpratt]

Concerning cautions at Indianapolis back in those days. I was reading Johnny Rutherford's autobiography and he mentioned that when the yellow came out cars were to hold their position relative to the car in front. I guess that means if the car in front was a straightaway ahead of me (a potentially long way at Indy) I was supposed to stay that distance behind at a reduced speed.

Hard to control I'm sure, with lots of fudging possibilities. When did that end?

[ry6]

Don you are right about those STRONGly built cars.

Perhaps their greatest strength was their greatest weakness.

What I am trying to say is that when they crashed there was nothing to absorb the "bang" and the brave driver suffered.

[Don Capps]

At some point in the 1950's the yellows would blink and drivers were to hold station with both the blinks and the surrounding traffic -- when the caution came out and the lights came on, the caution was effective immediately. Somewhere in there it was allowed for those on the lead lap to pass lapped traffic. This where Jim Clark came a cropper in 1963. This system of lights and holding station was replaced by the pace car system at some point in the 70's (I will try to remember to check later).

PS: I think the light system may have come into use this way as early as the 1930's now that I think about it.

[Doug Nye]

Just as a question of phonetics - was Ed Elisian's name in period pronounced

"Elli-zi-Ann"

"Elli-zi-Unn"

or perhaps

"Elli-zye-Unn"

Where - mayhap - is Buford when we need him ???????

DCN

[fines]

I believe his nickname was "Illusion" - should give you a clue I'd think ;)

[fines]

Originally posted by bpratt
Concerning cautions at Indianapolis back in those days. I was reading Johnny Rutherford's autobiography and he mentioned that when the yellow came out cars were to hold their position relative to the car in front. I guess that means if the car in front was a straightaway ahead of me (a potentially long way at Indy) I was supposed to stay that distance behind at a reduced speed.

Hard to control I'm sure, with lots of fudging possibilities. When did that end?

ISTR that in the seventies, they used a special system with numbers and lights, or perhaps a number of lights? The pace car system was introduced in 1979.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Where - mayhap - is Buford when we need him ???????

DCN

One word: Hooters....

[fines]

Originally posted by Don Capps


One word: Hooters....

Ah, you mean the restaurant/diner...;)

[m.tanney]

Doug,

  I believe that it was pronounced Eleezhyan (if that helps), with the accent on the first syllable.

Originally posted by fines
Ah, you mean the restaurant/diner...;)

And anywhere else they're found...

[Lotus23]

I recall the very same Ed Elisian being heavily criticized for his part in triggering the L1 crash which took the life of popular Pat O'Connor at Indy '58. The gist of it seemed to be that EE was trying to win the race on the first lap.

I remembering reading somewhere that Ed was hard-pressed for money and was determined to get the lap money for leading the first few laps.

Others who are better historians than I can fill in the details.

[Lotus23]

As I recall, Ed looked a lot like The Brickyard's current head honcho, Tony George.

[Henri Greuter]

About Elisian in '58, the best read I can suggest is the book "Indianapolis Roadsters" by Joe Scalzo.
Joe did a good analysis on Ed with interesting views and items. Too much for me to quoute here in short.
Good subject within a nice book.


Henri Greuter

[Jim Thurman]

Doug, I'll second Mike's post Eleezhyan He being of Armenian ancestry (real name being Eliseian). I would think some probably pronounced it Ell--ees-e-un as well, though I think the italicized would be correct.

Regarding, Elisian's blame in triggering the pile-up on the opening lap of the 1958 Indianapolis 500, there was plenty of blame to go around, though newspapers certainly seemed to dump it all on Elisian (much like they did with Billy Foster over the start pile-up in 1966).

It's covered in other threads, but basically, Elisian seemed to be a rather unsavory characted off track (gambling debts, dubious associates, bad checks, assault on a police officer), but on track was a different story.

I recall an interview about a decade ago where fellow front row starter Dick Rathmann took some of the blame for the accident saying "We were all stupid." (curious, since I ran across items from the time where D. Rathmann was calling for Elisian to be suspended).

A lot of the burden on Elisian carried over from him being blamed for "killing" Bob Sweikert at Salem, something that has proven to be a myth - despite the fact that the two apparently had a real personal feud that dated back to their high school hot rodding days in San Francisco's East Bay area.

Don Radbruch, who raced short tracks with Elisian, said he never had any qualms about racing wheel to wheel with Ed Elisian (unlike some others, he added), but that he wasn't exactly interested in hanging out with him away from the track.


Jim Thurman

[doc540]

"Elisian seemed to be a rather unsavory characted off track (gambling debts, dubious associates, bad checks, assault on a police officer)..."

Sounds like your average American open wheel jockey to me. We prefer the term "colorful".