43 replies to this topic

[TuryAguero]

if Michael Schumacher stays until 2006 with Ferrari (which is very
likely to happen base on today's news) I think that this fact will also
represent the end of the rumors that link Montoya with Ferrari.

At least to the press in spanish and portuguese the colombiam always
affirmed that he will never be number 2 (which is the case in Ferrari
while MS is there).

I guess the Maranello Guys will stick with Rubinho until 2006 who doesn't care
about being number 2 (but having his pockets full of UD Dollars and driving
a good car).

Sad, but true. (very sad for brazilian fans who have so much F1 tradition
and want a real driver)

[A3]

Originally posted by TuryAguero
(very sad for brazilian fans who have so much F1 tradition
and want a real driver)

pffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

[CLX]

Originally posted by TuryAguero
Sad, but true. (very sad for brazilian fans who have so much F1 tradition
and want a real driver)

Yeps. At least that's how I feel.

[speedmaster]

I've posted to another thread... Rubens is safe till the end of 2004. There are talks between him and Ferrari for about 2 months already regarding 2005.

Ferrari didn't offer anything to him after 2005 (which Rubens is looking for - a 2 year deal). Are they seeing Massa there 2006?

As for having a real racing driver Brazilians can stay with Rubinho, the runner up in the WDC. What's best out there? Michael? Damm he is German.....

[jonovision_man]

Stick a fork in Rubens... they announce everyone's extention today - Michael, Brawn, Todt, etc... he's the only one of the current team who is absent.

It will be nice to see someone new in that #2 car, will end the tedium of the Michael-Rubens partnership. Given the car Rubens has had the last few years, he has relatively little to show for it, there should have been far more Ferrari 1-2 finishes.

As for Montoya, Williams looks like a good place to hang up his hat for at least another 3 years! :-)

jono

[Fastcar]

Well to take on Montoya would be wrong but at least now he's got and they've got 3 years more evaluation. I'd love to see them take Montoya to Ferrari now so that I could enjoy JPM's royal stuffing at the hands of the better Schumacher brother instead of merely being matched by Ralf. Fisichella would be a great teammate for Schumacher though he is not a premadonna would keep his head down and drive solidly in his first year get some respect and then go for it 2005 no whinging in fact a very good relationship with Michael.

[CLX]

Originally posted by speedmaster
I've posted to another thread... Rubens is safe till the end of 2004. There are talks between him and Ferrari for about 2 months already regarding 2005.

Ferrari didn't offer anything to him after 2005 (which Rubens is looking for - a 2 year deal). Are they seeing Massa there 2006?

As for having a real racing driver Brazilians can stay with Rubinho, the runner up in the WDC. What's best out there? Michael? Damm he is German.....

He was only runner up with the F2002. He already had two championship winning cars before that and only scored one win and was outclassed by Coulthard in both seasons.

I used to have faith in him, now I think it's time for some young bloods, regardless of what country they are from.

[pRy]

Ferrari are grooming Montoya for the future.

[Chui]

It's anyone's guess who would be quicker over race distance in equal equipment between Michael and Juan Pablo. You've not seen it and neither have I. To state in the affirmative is mere speculation. We can say that on occasion JPM is as quick as Michael and he has in the past [with inferior equipment] beaten Michael in qualifying only to not "have the wheels" in the race.

It's akin to stating that in equal equipment Nigel Mansell would not be as quick as Ayrton Senna. I, for one, think he would have been and he's [obviously] stated that he felt so as well. I don't think he'd qualify as quick as much as he may believe, but over the course of a race I think he would have stolen many of Ayrton's wins... unless Senna was greater than we all thought he was. Interesting thought, but there's no way to know. Same as with JPM vs Michael Schumacher as teammates. Stick a fork in it, boys.

[Chris G.]

Originally posted by pRy
Ferrari are grooming Montoya for the future.

Yeah, they're letting him learn the ropes on someone else's dime.

[LuckyStrike1]

Who to teamup with Schumacher at Ferrari until 2006?

Someone willingly accepting the number two role it is to be the second Ferrari-driver today.
Someone desperate enough to get the odd win and have no other options.
Someone so non-controversial so no kind-of-red Ferrari toes will be stepped on.
Someone who has one of either two options:
1: Retirement or race in the back with a troubled team
2: Testdriver role and slowly forgotten in the F1-world of racers
Someone with a big fantasy enough to think that he, unlike Irvine and Rubens, will get an "equal-terms" contract with the team.
Someone getting along fine with Schumacher on- and off-track.

Well, this all sounds like Fisichella for me. If only he wasn't italian ....

As far as Kimi, Alonso and Montoya goes ... they will never end up at Ferrari now that's for sure. At least not until 2007 ....

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by Chui
It's anyone's guess who would be quicker over race distance in equal equipment between Michael and Juan Pablo. You've not seen it and neither have I. To state in the affirmative is mere speculation. We can say that on occasion JPM is as quick as Michael and he has in the past [with inferior equipment] beaten Michael in qualifying only to not "have the wheels" in the race.

It's akin to stating that in equal equipment Nigel Mansell would not be as quick as Ayrton Senna. I, for one, think he would have been and he's [obviously] stated that he felt so as well. I don't think he'd qualify as quick as much as he may believe, but over the course of a race I think he would have stolen many of Ayrton's wins... unless Senna was greater than we all thought he was. Interesting thought, but there's no way to know. Same as with JPM vs Michael Schumacher as teammates. Stick a fork in it, boys.

Montoya has had his hands full with Little Bro over 2.5 years, just imagine what would happen with Big Bro!

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
As far as Kimi, Alonso and Montoya goes ... they will never end up at Ferrari now that's for sure. At least not until 2007 ....

Would any of those drivers really want to be teamed up with Schumacher Snr even under equal terms with an equal contract? I doubt it, because they have too much to lose at this stage......if they went to Ferrari and got soundly trashed, where could they go from there?

[speedmaster]

Originally posted by The RedBaron


Would any of those drivers really want to be teamed up with Schumacher Snr even under equal terms with an equal contract? I doubt it, because they have too much to lose at this stage......if they went to Ferrari and got soundly trashed, where could they go from there?

None would be allowed to have the same treatment....so none would succeed... that's the reality. I can't blame Ferrari for that as Michael is their savior and the best one out there. I can't accept, though, to have anyone compared to Michael while this situation goes on... it isn't and won't be fair.

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by speedmaster

None would be allowed to have the same treatment....so none would succeed... that's the reality. I can't blame Ferrari for that as Michael is their savior and the best one out there. I can't accept, though, to have anyone compared to Michael while this situation goes on... it isn't and won't be fair.

Boo hoo, it just isn't fair!!

[Alapan]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
Who to teamup with Schumacher at Ferrari until 2006?

Someone willingly accepting the number two role it is to be the second Ferrari-driver today.
Someone desperate enough to get the odd win and have no other options.
Someone so non-controversial so no kind-of-red Ferrari toes will be stepped on.
Someone who has one of either two options:
1: Retirement or race in the back with a troubled team
2: Testdriver role and slowly forgotten in the F1-world of racers
Someone with a big fantasy enough to think that he, unlike Irvine and Rubens, will get an "equal-terms" contract with the team.
Someone getting along fine with Schumacher on- and off-track.

Well, this all sounds like Fisichella for me. If only he wasn't italian ....

Maybe not that willingly - but Ferrari could try give Jos the Boss the drive then ..


Ducks projectiles thrown by Dutch members of the BB

[TuryAguero]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
Who to teamup with Schumacher at Ferrari until 2006?

Someone willingly accepting the number two role it is to be the second Ferrari-driver today.
Someone desperate enough to get the odd win and have no other options.
Someone so non-controversial so no kind-of-red Ferrari toes will be stepped on.
Someone who has one of either two options:
1: Retirement or race in the back with a troubled team
2: Testdriver role and slowly forgotten in the F1-world of racers
Someone with a big fantasy enough to think that he, unlike Irvine and Rubens, will get an "equal-terms" contract with the team.
Someone getting along fine with Schumacher on- and off-track.

Well, this all sounds like Fisichella for me. If only he wasn't italian ....

As far as Kimi, Alonso and Montoya goes ... they will never end up at Ferrari now that's for sure. At least not until 2007 ....

Probably Little Ralf. Why not?

Fisi will do it, but he is too good for #2.

[MuMu]

Ron will sign DC for another year until JPM becomes available in 2005, and then create another super-team.

[Terramax]

Ferrari signing MS for another 2 years does not effect Massa's chance at getting a walk-up Ferrari race seat, because he never had a chance to begin with.

As for Montoya at Ferrari it is still possible. Depends if they still want to waste the 2nd Ferrari seat or not.

Somehow, I just don't see MS staying until the end of 2006, even though he has a contract. I think if he keeps winning, then he might retire earlier and consider a different role in the team, a sort of Jean Todt type role perhaps. I don't see him leaving the sport completely as he is a too big a name to lose in the sport.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by The RedBaron


Montoya has had his hands full with Little Bro over 2.5 years, just imagine what would happen with Big Bro!

Maybe on average,but what would happen on montoyas "on days" like when he outclasses ralf?
And hopefully by 2005 montoya would have more of these days a year.

[Superman]

Ferrari signing MS for another 2 years does not Massa's chance at getting a walk-up Ferrari race seat, because he never had a chance to begin with.

Well according to ITV, J Toad is kind of play a personal role in managing Massa and we never know how good Massa is, only Ferrari know. If i am Ruben he must be worry about his future, he haven't done much this season and his name is not even been mention about posibility of extending his deal with the team that emphasise on stability.

[Terramax]

Massa will need to find a ride elsewhere before he can even be considered for a Ferrari race seat. Perhaps Ferrari can buy him a seat at Sauber for a year.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by speedmaster
I've posted to another thread... Rubens is safe till the end of 2004. There are talks between him and Ferrari for about 2 months already regarding 2005.

Ferrari didn't offer anything to him after 2005 (which Rubens is looking for - a 2 year deal). Are they seeing Massa there 2006?

As for having a real racing driver Brazilians can stay with Rubinho, the runner up in the WDC. What's best out there? Michael? Damm he is German.....

A few more races like the last few he has driven, and he won't see the end of 2003 let alone 2005.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by Terramax
Massa will need to find a ride elsewhere before he can even be considered for a Ferrari race seat. Perhaps Ferrari can buy him a seat at Sauber for a year.

Jordan has been mentioned for Massa for next year.

[skinnylizard]

i just dont see why someone at the level of Michael needs a 1B.
Secondly im sure sure he knows how good he is and how well Ferrari are doing right now so why not ask for a real team-mate like Monty or Villeneuve or alonso.
I mean Prost had Mansell at Ferrari Prost & Senna at mcLaren therefore we know its never a bad thing to have two great drivers in a team competing against each other.
im sure it must have been pretty exciting to see 2 demi-gods going at it.
xxx
www.pi-media.com
www.eranstudio.com

[Terramax]

I mentioned that one too previously, and like with the Sauber possibility, Ferrari will probably pay Jordan for a seat there. They will need to, just imagine all those wrecked chassis that are going to have to be sold on ebay

[Pioneer]

I don't know about others but Michael does NOT seem like the type of guy to break his contract just to retire early. If he is signed for 2006 then I fully expect him to give his best until the very last lap of Japan 2006.

[LuckyStrike1]

With Schumacher at Ferrari there will always be that situation of "first driver - second driver" I think that in the back of the minds of every mechanic and engineer in Ferrari there is that thought "man, just don't screw it up with Schumachers car. Let's concentrate now".

I think the whole team is more happy when Schumi wins and Rubens DNF than the other way around no matter what the standings in the WCC and WDC is. Ferrari created this situation when they back in 1996 decided to go all out and put all their resources behind Schumacher to come back to the glory days. It succeded though but every succes has a downside and this is Ferraris downside - the team is now so focused on Schumacher and designed to make him succesful in order to be succesful themselves that there will always be that feeling of "first driver - the other driver". The team is simply put behind Schumacher and that is a big plus in F1 today. Just look at other teams when the drivers try to get the mechanics by their side and create that feeling for htem ... at Ferrari it was created from the start in 96 by the management.

Who can blame them really? It has worked wondersfor them in terms of results. The downside is that they will never be able to attract another topdriver to the second seat as long as Schumacher is there though ....

[Superman]

Sauber is definite posibility for Massa (Cheaper engine). Sauber employ HHF for his experience but so far he done nothing worth talking about just like Ruben and he is 35 (i think).

[Superman]

Who can blame them really? It has worked wondersfor them in terms of results. The downside is that they will never be able to attract another topdriver to the second seat as long as Schumacher is there though ....

Well i think it question of money and Ruben reportedly are on great salary (like DC if you consider him as topdriver). Well it all the same with William and McLaren (although not in public). Everyone at Williams seem to favour JPM and everyone at McLarens seem to favour Kimi.

[umapathypon]

Originally posted by Arrow


Maybe on average,but what would happen on montoyas "on days" like when he outclasses ralf?
And hopefully by 2005 montoya would have more of these days a year.

And what has happened when Ralf has had "ondays"? He out-classes JPM on those days which is why things average out.It's very rare that these two drivers have had "on" or "off" days at the same time.

[Ralliart]

Seems to me that having a #1 and a #2 is the way to go. Clark was definitely numero uno at Lotus and the team revolved around him - two world championships. Rindt - a (sadly posthumous) championship. Lauda - two world championships for Ferrari. Schumacher - two with Benneton and three with Ferrari. McLaren, with Prost and Senna, didn't need to establish numbers because either one of them was going to win the championship and that is probably the last time a team will have two superstars in the same team - without having detrimental effects (i.e. neither one of them winning the championship. I personally would like to see Raikkonen or Montoya beat Schumacher this year, but my gut tells me that, in the end, Schumacher will prevail - another example of a clear number one driver, with the team revolving around him.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by The RedBaron


Montoya has had his hands full with Little Bro over 2.5 years, just imagine what would happen with Big Bro!

The same. :yawn:

[HSJ]

Originally posted by The RedBaron


Would any of those drivers really want to be teamed up with Schumacher Snr even under equal terms with an equal contract? I doubt it, because they have too much to lose at this stage......if they went to Ferrari and got soundly trashed, where could they go from there?

Too much to lose? I say everything to gain! The one who has "too much to lose" is someone else altogether...

[metz]

Originally posted by pRy
Ferrari are grooming Montoya for the future.

Sure...and Williams is grooming Kimi...

[Velocifer]

For argument's sake:

Why wouldn't Ferrari/Fiat want Montoya? They are obviously gunning for the Brazilian market with Vodafone and possibly Red Bull later, it isn't a coincidence that half of their drivers are from that country. Judging from the crowds at Brazil GP it seems clear that JP is as big as any of the homegrown and he is popular in USA as well, so my bet is that De Montezemolo sees him as good value sponsor wise. You can also imagine Bernie and Max working up a fat at what a combo like that would do to the TV figures and are sure to push in their 'subtle' way for something like it..

And why should Michael object to having the Colombian as a teammate? Remember that when Rubens got the call he was occasionally blisteringly fast at Stewart and Jordan and one of the hottest drivers around much like Montoya is today, but that didn't faze Schumacher. After all his little brother can keep tabs on the hot and cold Juan Pablo - why shouldn't Michael do and more. (I think if Rubens were driving the Williams he would be exactly where Montoya is with Ralf today so they are probably very similar.)

And why wouldn't Monotoya go if he got asked? Finally a chance to prove himself with the best in the business and surely better than going backward with Williams and see kids like Fernando and Kimi lower your market price and being called an 'Alesi'? Surely he of all people doesn't lack the cohones to take on Michael, or ....

[kenny]

Originally posted by The RedBaron


Would any of those drivers really want to be teamed up with Schumacher Snr even under equal terms with an equal contract? I doubt it, because they have too much to lose at this stage......if they went to Ferrari and got soundly trashed, where could they go from there?

Well, I don't think so...
Today's situation:
ms is regarded as the best, and guys like jpm, kr, fa as upcoming talent, so nobody actually expects them to beat ms.
They team up with ms, get beaten by him, find another team, and try to beat him like that, and move on...
BUT, if they team up with him, and beat him, ms will lose a lot of credibility because of that... and this will play a major role for the upcoming generations regarding to ms' all time ranking...

[Sniper]

When I first read someones suggestion that they put "Jos the Boss" in the other Ferrari I laughed really hard....but then I thought hey he would be the perfect number 2 at Ferrari. They would never have to use or be accused of using team orders while he was there, because he would never be in a position to beat MS in an out and out race. Same as it was at Benneton. Might stop the constant whining about Ferrari's team orders.

It would be great to see JPM go there. He gives me the impression that if he was told to move over as RB was at Austria last year, he would probably do a Villenevue and say "What, I never heard anything, radio was screwed up"?

I also believe from MS's body language on the podium in Austria '02 that he was way more surprised than anyone when RB slowed for him to win, and he wasn't too happy about it either.
It was a team decision and he wasn't even consulted I have no doubt.

Kinda wish Webber wasn't tied up at Jag but then again would hate to see Ferrari use him as a fall guy. I think that as long as Ferrari insist on having MS up on a pedestal unable to be beaten by his teammate, they should keep RB there to pick up the spares.

Then when the day comes that MS retires, send RB packing too and hire 2 young guns and let them go at it no holds barred.

Of course theres a good chance that without the feedback and input from MS that virtually made the Ferrari the awesome weapon it is today, that they would slowly or maybe quickly fade into the midfield team we all remember from the late 80's and early 90's.

[kismet]

It would be great to see JPM go there. He gives me the impression that if he was told to move over as RB was at Austria last year, he would probably do a Villenevue and say "What, I never heard anything, radio was screwed up"?

... and as if by magic, he'd be looking for a new employer pretty soon, were the radio problems to become habitual.

[Velocifer]

Originally posted by Sniper
It would be great to see JPM go there. He gives me the impression that if he was told to move over as RB was at Austria last year, he would probably do a Villenevue and say "What, I never heard anything, radio was screwed up"?

Or a Ralf. Remember he twice plain refused team orders with the same excuse in 2001 at Williams when Montoya was to have his place, but isn't the truth that it takes an Irvine to suck team orders gracefully and they are far and few between..

What I mean is why would Ferrari necessarily uphold team order tactics? For one it isn't allowed anymore and two it could be best for business to change tack and give free reins to drivers. Heck, I even have a sneaking suspicion that Michael would welcome a new sparring partner on equal terms now that he has finished proving himself and just wants to have fun going out. It would cement his reputation once and for all if he should beat 'the new Senna' outright.

[kismet]

The obvious problems with that one:

1. Is there such a thing as "the new Senna" around, ie. someone universally recognised as a future great worthy of acting as a benchmark for MS of all people? I think not.

2. Would the people that refuse to believe that Michael thrashes Rubens without unfair advantage based on his #1 status within the team actually believe that he does that very thing to "the new Senna"? I think not.

Seems to me like a no win situation really, although it would obviously be interesting from a fan point of view. I just doubt it would make that much of a difference to how MS is perceived.

[Velocifer]

1. But isn't Montoya the hottest thing since chilli? - Sure get that impression reading the internet!

2. I have a feeling we'd be well informed by Montoya should an equal based contract not be honored, wouldn't you? Besides, it could always be used as a reputation saving excuse should he be beaten..

Hey, I'm just playing devil's advocate here as I can't really see it myself, but I don't think the move should be completely ruled out as the thread holds either..

[Chui]

Originally posted by Velocifer
1. But isn't Montoya the hottest thing since chilli? - Sure get that impression reading the internet!

2. I have a feeling we'd be well informed by Montoya should an equal based contract not be honored, wouldn't you? Besides, it could always be used as a reputation saving excuse should he be beaten..

Hey, I'm just playing devil's advocate here as I can't really see it myself, but I don't think the move should be completely ruled out as the thread holds either..

And if JPM proves the quicker of the two then what.....

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by HSJ


Too much to lose? I say everything to gain! The one who has "too much to lose" is someone else altogether...

After this year, MS would probably possess nearly every worthwhile record except for Senna's poles. What is left for him to achieve? He could effectively drive around for fun, I don't think it would hurt him any. His "legend" status would for ever remain intact regardless if he got beaten.
MS says he doesn't care about records but does it for his love of racing. Maybe it's true maybe it's not!

Actually a fast team mate like JPM would probably have the opposite effect and inspire him....present him with a new challenge. Maybe that's what he really needs....I think last year he became stale and just cruised around to victories.....that must have been boring!

What about his star-studded team-mate though? Hot reputation, on an upward curve needing to establish himself, needing to achieve results, needing to become World Champion!!
And if he didn't succeed in the 3 years there, then what? Do you think Mclaren and Williams would offer him a ride?

Let's look at it hypothetically, if JPM is suppose to be "da Man" and he waltzes across to Ferrari and comes out empty handed after 3 consecutive years, his reputation would be destroyed. No major player after that would touch him! Thats is a fact!

Ferrari rivals are looking for "Schumacher beaters" not more " losers"

Unless you're ultra confident as a racer, and faith in your own abilities and have no doubts
that you're able to beat MS on his home turf with equal equipment, you would not take up that potential "reputation" destroying challenge.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I remember that happening was when Senna went after Prost at Mclaren. It's easier to lose (or win) against Schumacher in a rival team than risk all and be exposed as his lesser team-mate. ..